[Glass Desert]

 death rattle, on 13 December 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

World building sucks.

Curious how noone has objected to crokus being a useless character.

Quote

Udinaas is the greatest character in all of literature

do expand.

This post has been edited by Glass Desert: 13 December 2016 - 12:16 AM

[Gorefest]

What is there to object to? It is an opinion, which you are welcome to have. Some people enjoy certain characters and character arcs, others enjoy others. There is a wealth of characters to endulge in, so each to their own. Personally I thought Crokus had a great story arc with lots of character development and a satisfying storyline conclusion. If you don't share that opinion, then skip the Crokus sections.

[worry]

It's hard to expand without going into every other character in literature, and we don't have enough time or space here for that unfortunately, but suffice to say every moment spent with him is an immeasurable pleasure.

[Gorefest]

Udinaas is like the Deadpool of the Malazan world. He keeps breaking the fourth wall and doesn't conform to expectations. Also, he throws around sarky jokes that make everyone pissed off with him in a philosophical way. Also, Udinaas is smarter than you. He may be even smarter than SE, who probably has no clue half the time what Udinaas is on about. Also, ultimobeastpossessionpowars of doomdeath. Also, Udinaas would trump Trump in a game of Trump-themed top trumps. This is not an opinion, this is fact and booklore of the Ancients.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 13 December 2016 - 02:54 AM

[MTS]

 Glass Desert, on 12 December 2016 - 11:58 PM, said:

 MTS, on 12 December 2016 - 11:39 PM, said:

 Glass Desert, on 12 December 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

 Apt, on 12 December 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

 Glass Desert, on 12 December 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

mhybe: no need to expand i presume.

There's a lot of need to expand. Think about the role the Mhybe played in Memories of Ice? She ended up becoming the Mhybe for an entire afterworld of the T'lan Imass. She has the Beast Hold anchored within her dreams. Introducing her and letting us experience her pain helped to make her ending a poignant transformation.

[size="3"]"She ended up becoming the Mhybe for an entire afterworld of the T'lan Imass"

And how is that important within the context of this series? The significance is at best perfunctory.

This is called 'worldbuilding' and a 'sub-plot'. The Mhybe's story arc tells us a whole lot about the T'lan Imass as a group.

It's not significant in that it doesn't necessarily expand the central plotline of the series (you could add multiple subplots to that list), but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value within the story. The Mhybe reveals her significance in one of ICE's books anyway (chiefly in her creation of Silverfox), having been foreshadowed more than a decade in advance by SE in MoI.

The T'lan Imass dont enter the fray until the end, why not skip the whole tedious narrative. Not much world building going on in there.

Because then it wouldn't make sense? There's also a thematic point SE was trying to make with the whole storyline. You could definitely argue that it could have been shorter, but skipped entirely? Perhaps not, considering it's partial set-up for another novel (like I mentioned). As Apt said, I didn't particularly enjoy reading it as I went (few do it seems), but it turned relatively poignant in the end. That's just my opinion though, you obviously have yours.

As for Crokus, he seems like he's going to be the fish-out-of-water character in GotM, and has this nice sort-of love story with Apsalar. That doesn't really eventuate in DG though, where he has all this teenage angst mooning over Apsalar (hehe...see what I did there? ) and doesn't really get past that until TBH (though I think he comes good in TTH). After GotM events seem to happen to him while in Apsalar/Heboric/Felisin's company, rather than him being a shaper of events per se. I don't think he needs to be though, he's just a foil through which we view certain events (rather than have, say, Apsalar's POV on everything that happens to her).

All this said, only 5 characters that need pruning in a cast of hundreds is a pretty good percentage I think. Though I suspect you have more.

[Puck]

 Gorefest, on 13 December 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Udinaas is like the Deadpool of the Malazan world. He keeps breaking the fourth wall and doesn't conform to expectations. Also, he throws around sarky jokes that make everyone pissed off with him in a philosophical way. Also, Udinaas is smarter than you. He may be even smarter than SE, who probably has no clue half the time what Udinaas is on about. Also, ultimobeastpossessionpowars of doomdeath. Also, Udinaas would trump Trump in a game of Trump-themed top trumps. This is not an opinion, this is fact and booklore of the Ancients.

May I quote you on tumblr? I love this (and Udinaas).

[blackzoid]

Ok, getting into the spirit of the OP's intent, I would say ,subjectively for each reader, that there could be much "pruning" of excess characters from the Malazan series.
For me, it would be on a personal taste basis and one character that might not work for me, may work for someone else. (I despised Karsa when I first met him and wanted him dead for so long. Even past HoC). But the OP has picked poor choices, I think. All those characters he/she wants to remove are unique and add something to the series.

Udinaas and Mhaybe are great and necessary characters I think. Not classically exciting and hard to read about. But really adding to the themes of their respective books. Silverfox also though not as much. Crokus/Paran are the closest to "traditional farm boy heros" when they first come on the scene, before they grew.

I personally would have preferred removing the "redundant" characters. And that ,for me,is obviously the very many many marine/sapper characters. Just for the Bonehunters themselves, what started off as a few squad sizes in HoC ballooned into multiples of too-similar character types in RG. Past the BridgeBurners, Fiddlers squad, and Geslar/Stormy's and the Y'ghhatan tunnel Bonehunters, who really cares?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 December 2016 - 03:59 PM

[worry]

No offense but I just don't think the books would have been as good without Tavos Pond and Thom Tissy.

[MTS]

 death rattle, on 13 December 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

No offense but I just don't think the books would have been as good without Tavos Pond and Thom Tissy.

Don't forget Himble Thrup!

I personally found the Redmask storyline to be a bit superfluous.

[Gorefest]

 Puck, on 13 December 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

 Gorefest, on 13 December 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Udinaas is like the Deadpool of the Malazan world. He keeps breaking the fourth wall and doesn't conform to expectations. Also, he throws around sarky jokes that make everyone pissed off with him in a philosophical way. Also, Udinaas is smarter than you. He may be even smarter than SE, who probably has no clue half the time what Udinaas is on about. Also, ultimobeastpossessionpowars of doomdeath. Also, Udinaas would trump Trump in a game of Trump-themed top trumps. This is not an opinion, this is fact and booklore of the Ancients.

May I quote you on tumblr? I love this (and Udinaas).

Sure, but I may have had a few drinks when I wrote this so I cannot currently vouch for its accuracy under the cold scrutiny of daylight sobriety.

[Glass Desert]

 Gorefest, on 13 December 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Udinaas is like the Deadpool of the Malazan world. He keeps breaking the fourth wall and doesn't conform to expectations. Also, he throws around sarky jokes that make everyone pissed off with him in a philosophical way. Also, Udinaas is smarter than you. He may be even smarter than SE, who probably has no clue half the time what Udinaas is on about. Also, ultimobeastpossessionpowars of doomdeath. Also, Udinaas would trump Trump in a game of Trump-themed top trumps. This is not an opinion, this is fact and booklore of the Ancients.

Three-fourths of the way through RG, he's been better than he was in MT, surely.

[Glass Desert]

 blackzoid, on 13 December 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

Ok, getting into the spirit of the OP's intent, I would say ,subjectively for each reader, that there could be much "pruning" of excess characters from the Malazan series.
For me, it would be on a personal taste basis and one character that might not work for me, may work for someone else. (I despised Karsa when I first met him and wanted him dead for so long. Even past HoC). But the OP has picked poor choices, I think. All those characters he/she wants to remove are unique and add something to the series.

Udinaas and Mhaybe are great and necessary characters I think. Not classically exciting and hard to read about. But really adding to the themes of their respective books. Silverfox also though not as much. Crokus/Paran are the closest to "traditional farm boy heros" when they first come on the scene, before they grew.

I personally would have preferred removing the "redundant" characters. And that ,for me,is obviously the very many many marine/sapper characters. Just for the Bonehunters themselves, what started off as a few squad sizes in HoC ballooned into multiples of too-similar character types in RG. Past the BridgeBurners, Fiddlers squad, and Geslar/Stormy's and the Y'ghhatan tunnel Bonehunters, who really cares?

Nah, cant agree with this, sure its hard to bring a distinct personality to every soldier/marine being characteried, but its the camaraderie (& the exchanges and the bickering) among them thats been the soul of these books, for me, more than anything else. Reading the depiction of the malazan troops has been both entertaining and heartbreaking, not to mention poignant and cynical. Point in case - beak.

A shout out to the quality of humor & dialogue in these scenes. Really unique & unexpected.

Quote

All those characters he/she wants to remove are unique and add something to the series.

Pruning is perhaps too strong a sentiment, but a re-examination and better editing could not hurt.

[Glass Desert]

 MTS, on 13 December 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

 Glass Desert, on 12 December 2016 - 11:58 PM, said:

 MTS, on 12 December 2016 - 11:39 PM, said:

 Glass Desert, on 12 December 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

 Apt, on 12 December 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

 Glass Desert, on 12 December 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

mhybe: no need to expand i presume.

There's a lot of need to expand. Think about the role the Mhybe played in Memories of Ice? She ended up becoming the Mhybe for an entire afterworld of the T'lan Imass. She has the Beast Hold anchored within her dreams. Introducing her and letting us experience her pain helped to make her ending a poignant transformation.

[size="3"]"She ended up becoming the Mhybe for an entire afterworld of the T'lan Imass"

And how is that important within the context of this series? The significance is at best perfunctory.

This is called 'worldbuilding' and a 'sub-plot'. The Mhybe's story arc tells us a whole lot about the T'lan Imass as a group.

It's not significant in that it doesn't necessarily expand the central plotline of the series (you could add multiple subplots to that list), but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value within the story. The Mhybe reveals her significance in one of ICE's books anyway (chiefly in her creation of Silverfox), having been foreshadowed more than a decade in advance by SE in MoI.

The T'lan Imass dont enter the fray until the end, why not skip the whole tedious narrative. Not much world building going on in there.

Because then it wouldn't make sense? There's also a thematic point SE was trying to make with the whole storyline. You could definitely argue that it could have been shorter, but skipped entirely? Perhaps not, considering it's partial set-up for another novel (like I mentioned). As Apt said, I didn't particularly enjoy reading it as I went (few do it seems), but it turned relatively poignant in the end. That's just my opinion though, you obviously have yours.

As for Crokus, he seems like he's going to be the fish-out-of-water character in GotM, and has this nice sort-of love story with Apsalar. That doesn't really eventuate in DG though, where he has all this teenage angst mooning over Apsalar (hehe...see what I did there? ) and doesn't really get past that until TBH (though I think he comes good in TTH). After GotM events seem to happen to him while in Apsalar/Heboric/Felisin's company, rather than him being a shaper of events per se. I don't think he needs to be though, he's just a foil through which we view certain events (rather than have, say, Apsalar's POV on everything that happens to her).

All this said, only 5 characters that need pruning in a cast of hundreds is a pretty good percentage I think. Though I suspect you have more.

Still think Apsalar's character arc would've been stronger without him. She's a bit of a missed opportunity.