[bhokaralasenator]

I've got a little theory about the Tiste Liosan coming out of left field in TCG.

One thing I never understood was how the Liosan changed and suddenly became a sort of nihilistic, war-bent people who went from religious isolationism to aggressive expansion, no matter the cost. I know they generally allied with the Nahruk and the Forkrul Assail in their war of annihilation, but I never understood the change of heart. When we first meet them, they are reclusive and blinded by their own sense of superiority. But by TCG they're drinking dragon blood, going after Kharkanas (which they left alone for eons) and murdering their own citizens who don't get on board with this plan.

Something obviously changed between the last time we saw the TL in House of Chains. At that time,they are fanatically devout to Father Light and Osserc. Their priests wield the power of KuraldLiosan/Thyrllan through religious invocation. They see themselves as superior to the other Tiste and are on a crusade to punish those who breached their sacred realm.

Of course, we know now from Fall of Light that Father Light is likely, um, inactive, (didn't want to spoil anything) and Osserc makes it clear that he couldn't care less about the Liosan. He regularly appoints familiars and other demons to take his place in whatever position of power he was supposed to hold in Kurald Liosan. He wanders around, seemingly bored, having one retarded misadventure after another. In essence he's the opposite of Anomander, who chose to lead his people through their ennui and return their deity to them in an act of love. Osserc is jaded, petulant, and can't even be bothered to hang with his own son or baby mama for long.

In short, I think Osserc caused the Liosan's general change of heart.

At the end of Blood and Bone, L'oric and Spite send Osserc's unconscious form through a portal, presumably into Kurald Liosan. Spite notes that KL was sealed by Osserc's own hand, and the voices that receive Osserc sound like they've been waiting for him for a very long time. He vanishes into the light and we don't see him again. I submit that those who received Osserc were the priests of the Liosan, and they did not get what they were hoping for.

At the very least, we know something changed the Liosan's perspective. We know Osserc was thrust into KL, however briefly, and we know that someone was on the other side to receive him. Next time we see the TL, they're batshit crazy, and I think it was all thanks to their beloved deity.

Assuming I've got the timeline right, BaB ends before TCG begins. So Osserc gets (involuntarily)sent back into KL, where he encounters the fanatical Liosan who worship them. He then proceeds to be the jerk he's pretty much always been, reveal to the priests that they've been worshiping one stand-in or another this whole time, and disillusion the crap out of the majority of the population of Saranas.

He then takes off for parts unknown, having done immense damage to his own people and not caring.

Their response? They go off the deep end. Kadagar Fant mentions that the priests spread word of "imposters and tricksters." He says they are abandoned. They make alliances with ancient alien species that they would've never even acknowledged before. They trap a dragon and drink its blood so they can gain power, knowing it will kill some who try. They even sacrifice 6 (!) Hounds of Light in the process of bringing the Eleint down. They plan to strike for the Throne of Darkness, perhaps in an attempt at hurting the once-mate of Father Light, their absent god.

Osserc seems like the kind of guy who could accomplish all of that with his own indifference, then walk away from the damage.

Thoughts?

[worry]

1) It's racist to think of all Tiste Liosan so monolithically.

2) This should probably be in the General Book Topics section cuz you go into plenty of post-TCG content.

[Vengeance]

I agree. I moved it.

[worry]

My take is that Kadagar Fant's faction of TL have not come into contact with Osserc -- the end of BaB goes in another direction entirely. And obviously it's a faction, since the TL following Jayashul have an entirely different MO. In a way what I think is really going on here is the contrast between Anomander Rake and Osserc. The former stood by his people and did all he could to keep them going, the latter abandoned his people and they fractured, some growing corrupt and aggressive (as some neglected children will do). It's also worth noting that the group of TL seeking out Osserc come from Jayashul's group, not Fant's.

[nacht]

The best putdown of Osserc in my opinion: especially the contrast with Anomander.

Still, I don't think Osserc is that bad. Everybody has a right to run a mile away from these crazy Liosan.

The cultures of the Liosan, Edur and Andii are different based upon the nature of the groups they came from.
The Liosan were an army, the Andii were aristocrats and their servants and the Edur seem to be mostly commoners.
As a result, the Liosan might crave a strong leader and look to him for direction.

[nacht]

worry, on 11 October 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

It's also worth noting that the group of TL seeking out Osserc come from Jayashul's group, not Fant's.

How did you figure out that they cam efrom Jayashul's group?

[worry]

Cuz they return to them at the end of Stonewielder.

[nacht]

A potentially simpler explanation of the timing could be that the Liosan managed to kill an elient with the help of the Nahruk (who demonstrated this capability by killing Sorrit),

[bhokaralasenator]

worry, on 11 October 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

My take is that Kadagar Fant's faction of TL have not come into contact with Osserc -- the end of BaB goes in another direction entirely. And obviously it's a faction, since the TL following Jayashul have an entirely different MO. In a way what I think is really going on here is the contrast between Anomander Rake and Osserc. The former stood by his people and did all he could to keep them going, the latter abandoned his people and they fractured, some growing corrupt and aggressive (as some neglected children will do). It's also worth noting that the group of TL seeking out Osserc come from Jayashul's group, not Fant's.

What direction do you think the end of BaB went in? Someone(s) inside Kurald Liosan clearly received Osserc, had been waiting for him, and were happy to see him. Sounds like priests or, at the least, worshipers. I doubt he greeted them with open arms. Kadagar later blames the priests' reports of false gods on the TL's change in direction and culling of the Saranas population.

nacht, on 12 October 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

A potentially simpler explanation of the timing could be that the Liosan managed to kill an elient with the help of the Nahruk (who demonstrated this capability by killing Sorrit),

Yes, but the question is why? I know SE and ICE don't always give us all the answers, but the Osserc link at the end of BaB is too direct to not be a clue as to why the TL are suddenly power mad at the beginning of tCG.

Either way, am I right that the end of BaB is the very last we see of Osserc? (Other than the Kharkanas trilogy, of course).

[D'rek]

Well, I don't think there's any concrete information either way, but I think it might just be a simple case that the previous rulers of Kurald Thyrllan (Krin Ne Fant and his predecessors) were isolationists, but Kadagar Fant was an expansionist ruler. Kadagar - planning his eventual takeover and policies - gathered a group of followers, killed Kessobahn, then overthrew Krin Ne Fant. After that, Kadagar bided his time for a bit, trying to pseudo-covertly grab more power before his main invasion (e.g. sending the Hounds of Light to try and steal Dragnipur for him) and consolidating his rule (e.g. the religious purges and conscription of the citizenry in Kurald Thyrllan). Then when he felt ready (around the time of TCG) he launched his invasion into Kurald Galain and beyond.

[nacht]

It is a little strange though that the Fant faction of the Liosan are willing to sacrifice so much to breach lightfall just to occupy empty Kharkanas.
Maybe the fact that Mother Dark is back or maybe the throne of night had something to do with the timing.

Also there seem to be other roundabout paths to Kurald Galain rather than breaching lifghtfall.

[worry]

I think the end of BaB suggests that -- after all this time -- some sense of responsibility has been knocked into Osserc's head. He's going back to KL to do "the right thing" after actually doing something unselfish on the main world. And yah, unfortunately, I think you do have the timeline wrong: Osserc returns to KL after the events of TCG (Kaminsod is gone by then).

[nacht]

worry, on 12 October 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

And yah, unfortunately, I think you do have the timeline wrong: Osserc returns to KL after the events of TCG (Kaminsod is gone by then).

Here is the quote that confirms this.
Near the end Murk sees Celeste again.

Quote

'Yes We are all gone now. All my brothers and sisters. Far to the west the Shattered God has been sent onward -- allowed to translate into another existence -- however you wish to put it. As have I.'

This post has been edited by nacht: 17 October 2016 - 03:12 AM

[Abyss]

The invaders in TCG likely wanted their pre diaspora home back.

[bhokaralasenator]

Good catch on the Kaminsod departure timing... I forgot about that Celeste quote, but you seem to be right and my theory is DEBUNKED.
I guess, after 300,000 years, they just got uppity.