[Lady Bliss]

As promised, a discussion on Mafia reveals.

I feel like there were a few mod-killable reveals during the Buffy game and Cabin game, while the ones in 136.75 seem debatable. I want to use this thread to determine a standard that we can re-use for most games.

This post has been edited by Lady Bliss: 17 August 2016 - 09:31 PM

[Grief]

My opinion is generally that role reveals (unless otherwise stated by the mods) should not be verifiable, except through the game itself. A reveal shouldn't be verifiable simply by the method (or text) of the reveal. To me, this is the spirit of the "no quoting role PM's" rule; it's there to stop people revealing their role/alignment in a manner that is totally verifiable through off-thread information rather than through the actual on-thread game. Unless specifically forbidden, I'd be fine with people explaining their role and sharing any information they'd found. I'd be fine with people trying to use their role to verify their role (i.e, a finder saying "So and so is scum, they'll CF scum if you lynch them"). I wouldn't be fine with them using their off-thread information (such as the wording of their PM) to try and verify themselves. If I was modding, I would probably view any other method using off-thread information -- even if it wasn't technically violating the "don't quote PM's" rule -- as an attempt to deliberately circumvent the spirit of that rule and would modkill the person anyway. The premise of the game is to deduce people's alignment through the information on the game thread (and information recieved from roles, though even this is an addition to the basic game), not from information outside of that.

I don't totally know how I feel about the case of paired lovers using codes in order to verify their reveals, which is a fairly common practice that possibly goes against my views above.

[Vengeance]

I agree with grief. But I would add that in games that specifically say no reveals. Any and all attempts to paraphrase or otherwise insinuate what your role maybe should be cleared via pm with ps. I would also say that players shouldn't say that they are attempting to clarify something with ps. That alone can imply that they have a role.

[HoosierDaddy]

What's the fucking point of the game if you let this slide?

I don't know, I suck at Mafia as it is maybe I need more clues.

[JPK]

Ok, obviously I don't have the level of experience the rest of you do with this, but with the events of the game going so far sideways I'd like to chime in with a thought.

I was asked if I would have modkilled a RI player for false revealing himself as scum by one of the players who mods on a more regular basis. One of the simple base goals of the game is for a scum player to convince the rest of the players that he's a townie. That's the basic survival premise of the damn game. For a scum player to declare on thread "I'm town" shouldn't trigger a modkill for reveal. However, I think that line is crossed when it goes from "I'm town" or "I'm scum" to "I'm a specific role."

[Coltaine -]

I don't have a problem with reveals of faction or role, as both could be fake. And I liked Gnaws (?) symp reveal a few games ago. Crazy idea.
But if the mod decides to prohibit reveals it is totally okay for me if they modkill someone who announces their role directly.

I also agree with Venge that using your role-pm or other off-thread information to verify yourself deserves a mod-kill.

[Tattersail_]

Any game were you have weird wording for RI, in this case, "you have the power to vote", "your only power is to vote" then it is simply easy enough for the Mod to post the RI phrase into the OP. It's easily done and avoids any of what happened this previous game. A symp should be able to reveal whatever he likes to cause confusion. A paired killer may need to fake reveal finder to out the real finder. It's mafia, scum should be able to lie.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Given how game changing a well execute reveal or fake reveal could be, leave it in the game, but just don't allow people to quote their pms. THat way theres still room for doubt.

[Tapper]

Okay. Long reply incoming, from multiple angles.

Angle One: me being probably guilty of at least a bazillion-minus-two mod-kill-offenses of the bazillion mod-killable reveals in the Buffy game;
Angle Two: me as mod who ran games including a strict no-reveal any info basis;
Angle Three: me as a mod who ran games including a no-reveal about yourself basis.

Angle 1: as a finder, the best way to use the ability is to cycle finds as quickly as you can, and have town lynch based on them. The fact I had the means to kill a found vamp didn't matter: I wanted the lynch so I could do a find the next night, with the kill being a last resort - this was more or less mirrored in the set-up with a recruit each night for the vamps. So, I leaked my finds. Of course I got pressure (member of a third party, etc etc), which made me slide more and more "Buffy would probably be able to vig" to "I think Buffy vigged them" to "I am pretty sure YOU are not Buffy." (hint hint), because no townie would ever lynch Buffy without a counter-claim and no scum would dare to attack Buffy on thread until they had a majority of votes.

But, as you can see, the entire play hinges more or less on me being Buffy (and not a predator-finder without a (fake) name).

INTERLUDE: so, when does this happen?
95% likely: in games based on anything that can be Wiki-ed for set-up clues, simply because a revealed identity (whether through reveal, code or hint) offers such a tremendous upside to clue people, to make yourself PI, to be easily and quickly identified by team-mates, and to stand tall and spit in the face of anyone attacking you, who then outs themselves, and fake counter-claims are practically suicidal: the only thing you have to fear, really, is putting a target on your back. The upside is huge, and not in the least because you usually are protected like a guy wearing a bullet proof cover-all inside an armoured submarine inside a small lake inside a nuclear proof bunker with no access from the outside and with an unlimited air supply.

70% likely: for active roles that can prove alignment (finder, guard, vig) and in games in which the CF reveals the role (aka "HP is dead, they were Tattersail, and the finder"). The clue-ing aspects are much less likely, but the counter-claiming can be bullshitted really, really easily and with definite proof.

35% likely: for non-interactive roles that can't prove alignment (BP, Healer) in games in which the CF also reveals the role. These roles are very hard to prove, but counter-claiming is also unproductive and somewhat suicidal, and certainly NOT good for a townie to do, making a counter-reveal a scum-only play and thus, useless.

20% likely: for active roles that can prove alignment (finder, guard, vig) and in games in which the CF does not reveal the role. Counter-claiming by a symp is all of a sudden possible.

The problem (and now we move to angle 2) with a no-reveal clause is that so much in Mafia is based on information and perception. Revealing yourself ("I am the finder, and I say they are scum") is sometimes a great way to attack, but it carries risk: counter-claim, NK in the follow-up, et cetera. When revealing in order to attack someone else, you are at the least in control of the risk the reveal carries.

However, a reveal in defense ("don't lynch me, I am the finder") is often a last resort pressed on people in their very last attempt to delay the inevitable. Half the time you'll be lynched, anyway ("we have to be sure you're not lying"), when that doesn't happen, usually you're dead after from a NK and even if that doesn't happen, you're a walking wounded because people will call your reveal into question based on the fact you are not NKed.

Finally, being revealed is even worse. You cannot hide and the only thing that can prove who you are, is basically your CF. With some roles (role name finder, the "Cicero" (finder who reveals his find straight onto thread)) even that is impossible.

I'd say that in games with recognizable characters (movies, series, books) or any scenario in which Wiki can provide role/set-up clues, people will try to bend the reveal rules because

a. power distribution in these games tends to be concentrated on a few named players, including protective measures that wouldn't appear in more normal games, thus decreasing the negative effects of a reveal,
b. revealing can give very potent clues to anyone willing to use wiki (or to read wiki and use that info on thread),
c. invariably, the powerful roles also have the most information to give, thus the most incentive to reveal.

Angle Three is designed to counter the offensive effect of revealing yourself in games that are wiki-able. It does so up to a point: people are really forbidden (and easy to correct) if they try to use their own PM/role name to reveal. The problem is that they can freely spill the beans about others, and these others cannot counter by revealing information about themselves ("yes, I am the wicked witch of the west, but my victory conditions are quite close to yours, really"), disadvantaging the defense even further.

So, after all that, any solutions?

I think a possible solution in games with recognizable characters in a high TMDI setting with multiple factions is that you cannot reveal your own or other's role names (or their descriptions, page numbers or episodes on which they appear, words their names rhyme with, et cetera) on pain of mod-kill, but you can reveal your own powers (alignment/ power names and player/role name/faction related stuff edited out from the PM) and the alignment (and perhaps also powers) of yourself and other players.

The reason is simple: powers, roles and other stuff is probably not straight-forwardly seperable in goodie or baddie and there is always the option of a third party. In games with no recognizable characters in a high TMDI setting with multiple factions this would work too: for Spycraft or Rot3K, for example, any role without a name, a nation alignment or reference to other players (also in power text) would be completely impossible to identify.

In lower-powered games with lots of RIs or just town/scum, the issue is bit harder, and here I'd just say that no names, no descriptions (you are Angel's sire --> run to wiki and find out its a bad, bad vampire) and no powers of yourself or others is best. Alternatively, make a rule on how a scum- or town accusation should be worded. AKA, you can only accuse people saying "I think you are scum" or PI them with "I think you are town".

[Macros]

If the mod says no reveals allowed.
Then using the text of a pm is (imo) to verify yourself (ala tatts last game) is modkillable. As was my Im RI, completely dumbass, post.
This makes a false claim by scum impossible, I understand this.

Personally I think it should be absolutely no quoting or paraphrasing of pms allowed. As a mod you can choose to make public ri pms to enforce this. It leaves a claim still possible, but totally unverifiable barring finder result or death.

[Mentalist]

I mostly agree with tapper. He gave a good breakdown.

My personal opinion is that "generic" role reveals are always ok (unless mod specifically says NO REVEALS, but I hardly ever see the point, tbh), but naming your "character" and paraphrasing "flavour" text of your role PM ought to be modkillable.

In terms of "revealing RI"- as mentioned elsethread, I hardly see the point, since it's the least verifiable reveal out there.

There's also the caveat, that lot depends on how full your CF is.

[Messremb]

I'm not a fan of "no reveal" games, particularly when they're low TMDI.


My basis for this is that in a simple game it's a perfectly good Mafia move for say the symp to claim finder in defence of their master. Reveals prohibit this. A fake reveal is an art form in itself.

It's also a bit daft to have the rule when you have a Finder or a Guard in game. You Find someone for playing a little too perfectly and getting VPI'd, they come back as scum, you have to make a case on someone who there literally no case to be made on. Shit. It also makes breadcrumbing or coding worthless - a good role reveal should feature the role coding somewhere the results of their NA each Day. Reveal time comes and you have an established back story so you're either a very well prepared symp or a genuine role. This skill seems to have waned a lot. Time was if you had a long paragraph of text or several short ones then for instance the first letter of each sentence might spell out F E N E R and half of the game thread would notice, realise you had a role that had targeted Fener last Night so you in turn had to be much more subtle than that.


In higher TMDI games when there are many mechanics in play it's equally a minefield. So in for instance the D&D game you've knowledge of your teams alts and have an ability that tells you who attacked you. You note that Spite, your Heir, cast a fireball at you last night causing you 3HP of damage. There is almost no way you can engage with Spite to tell them that they targeted a team-mate last night and to quit it without cutting very close to revealing off-thread information, enough that you spend hours figuring out from PS (who is, naturally, in a time-zone 8 hours removed from you and who has a busy day at work ) what you can and can't get away with saying and then oh someone hammers after only 9 hours and Spite burns you to a crisp before you have an "allowed" warning approved.


Now being specific about information that can not be revealed is much better. "No revealing your name" now that I can deal with fine. Something like "no quoting/paraphrasing of Role PMs*" cuts close to Tatts move last game but not close enough to warrant modkill. Easily solved with RI PM being on thread to start. Also by educating Ment about the wonders of He-Man...


Picture the theoretical scene in a M&P game - I'm a Guard. Do I make the same case again and again on the same alt day in day out? "Yeah it's M&P, we lynched one killer D1 so 1 left. We've now lynched RI for 8 Days straight and there have been no NKs in game at all. I think we should lynch <alt> as I said on D2, D3, D4, D5, D6, D7, D8, D9" or come on at D3 and say "No NKs so far in game, could be because I Guarded <alt> on N1 & N2..." I know which way will sap out any will to keep playing. I know which will have everyone thinking I'm pigeon-holed, soley focussed on one alt and will probably get me lynched sooner or later for being so damned annoyingly insistent, not to mention snarky about all the cases town makes on itself...



I think I also have an issue with a game starting and finding out at start of the game that there are to be no reveals. If a mod has planned for no reveals then let people know in advance dammit.



*D'rek did a masterful fake Role PM screenshot in one game where it was allowed and also a pretty good Locomindhive fake role sheet when infiltrating another faction in Ghoul Gulch.