[JohnO]

Doing a reread.
We never get to see what happened in the throne room
It's kind of implied everyone knew it was a trap and someone (surly) threw in a heap of otataral dust. Was it tho?
She had a pile of assassin mages. Dancer wasn't a Mage. Makes more sense for him to have used it to set up a pause (while kelenved pointed a cussed armed crossbow at surly) allowing some discourse, then a deal, which involved everyone agreeing dancer / kelenved were dead, when they really just abseiled down the cliff and ran to the deadhouse

[D'rek]

Well, I figure it is left ambiguous on purpose. Maybe they were able to negotiate the deal, as you describe. Or maybe they all went for each others' throats but K&D got away.

[the broken]

Dancer may have been a mage by that point in his life.

Basically three possibilities.

K&D try to kill Laseen, fail, and have to flee.

K&D deliberately fail to kill Laseen in order to fake their deaths

They all cut a deal and kill the witnesses.

[Abyss]

I'm vaguely sure there were other survivors from the Claw, not just Surly.
From Kiska's perspective, all we know is that Kel and Dancer made it to the throne room where Surly waited with some Claw and an otataral trap.There was a fight, Surly was wounded, some Claw dies, and Kel and Dancer fell out of the window to their supposed deaths, to Surly's apparent anger.
We also know they didn't die in the fall and went for the Deadhouse.
We can add that in order to ascend they had to at least appear to die, and give up their claim on the Empire. Surly was always part of that plan, tho she didn't know it. Kel was counting on her usurping them in their absence and opposing their return, violently.

[the broken]

Abyss, on 25 August 2016 - 12:01 AM, said:

I'm vaguely sure there were other survivors from the Claw, not just Surly.
From Kiska's perspective, all we know is that Kel and Dancer made it to the throne room where Surly waited with some Claw and an otataral trap.There was a fight, Surly was wounded, some Claw dies, and Kel and Dancer fell out of the window to their supposed deaths, to Surly's apparent anger.
We also know they didn't die in the fall and went for the Deadhouse.
We can add that in order to ascend they had to at least appear to die, and give up their claim on the Empire. Surly was always part of that plan, tho she didn't know it. Kel was counting on her usurping them in their absence and opposing their return, violently.

Yep, there were other Claw survivors, Topper and Possum. Also relevant, is that K&D did not leave unscathed, they were both severely wounded, to the point that Kellanved couldn't walk on his own, and Dancer wasn't much better.

[ansible]

the broken, on 25 August 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

Abyss, on 25 August 2016 - 12:01 AM, said:

I'm vaguely sure there were other survivors from the Claw, not just Surly.
From Kiska's perspective, all we know is that Kel and Dancer made it to the throne room where Surly waited with some Claw and an otataral trap.There was a fight, Surly was wounded, some Claw dies, and Kel and Dancer fell out of the window to their supposed deaths, to Surly's apparent anger.
We also know they didn't die in the fall and went for the Deadhouse.
We can add that in order to ascend they had to at least appear to die, and give up their claim on the Empire. Surly was always part of that plan, tho she didn't know it. Kel was counting on her usurping them in their absence and opposing their return, violently.

Yep, there were other Claw survivors, Topper and Possum. Also relevant, is that K&D did not leave unscathed, they were both severely wounded, to the point that Kellanved couldn't walk on his own, and Dancer wasn't much better.

To add to all this, it's implied all over the book that Kel and Dancer planned the "evening's drama"; Dancer comes out and tells Temper as much right beforehand. Even their own obvious wounds and exhaustion. They planned the entire scene with Surly to much greater detail than Kiska understands. Corinn refers to the entire scene between Kel/Dancer/Surly as a "side show". The real action takes place at the Deadhouse, which is where they go next and lo, Kiska finds Kel and Dancer.

Before this, Kel and Dancer had been inside the Deadhouse probably hundreds of times before, and nothing special ever happened. There is something very specific about the relationship between the Shadow Moon and the Deadhouse that Kel and Dancer discovered on their many journeys, and they go to great lengths to ensure this one night that the entire book is about goes as planned.

[the broken]

I don't know, I think there's at least a possibility the plan was genuinely to kill Laseen and leave Whiskeyjack to take the Throne...

[Abyss]

the broken, on 11 December 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

I don't know, I think there's at least a possibility the plan was genuinely to kill Laseen and leave Whiskeyjack to take the Throne...

Based on what?

[the broken]

Hi, sorry for lateness.

The extent of their injuries doesn't seem like it could be calculated, Kellanved can't even stand unassisted, and K&D's word is the absolute last thing that should be trusted with regard to whether things are going to plan or not.

There's also a conversation about that night in one of the early books, probably Deadhouse Gates, because I haven't been able to find the exact quote. Some of the Bridgeburners are talking about that night in Mock's Hold, and how with the Old Guard gone everyone was looking to Whiskeyjack to see if he would seize power, but he chose to 'salute' instead to stop the bloodletting, which puts him either next in line or with enough loyalty among the army to seize power if he wanted to.

K and D also hold an impressive grudge for someone doing exactly what they wanted, and they bring a company of bridgeburners with them in their assault.

Nothing certain, but the whole scene is ambiguous on purpose.

[ansible]

the broken, on 01 January 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Hi, sorry for lateness.

The extent of their injuries doesn't seem like it could be calculated, Kellanved can't even stand unassisted, and K&D's word is the absolute last thing that should be trusted with regard to whether things are going to plan or not.

There's also a conversation about that night in one of the early books, probably Deadhouse Gates, because I haven't been able to find the exact quote. Some of the Bridgeburners are talking about that night in Mock's Hold, and how with the Old Guard gone everyone was looking to Whiskeyjack to see if he would seize power, but he chose to 'salute' instead to stop the bloodletting, which puts him either next in line or with enough loyalty among the army to seize power if he wanted to.

K and D also hold an impressive grudge for someone doing exactly what they wanted, and they bring a company of bridgeburners with them in their assault.

Nothing certain, but the whole scene is ambiguous on purpose.

We get a lot of information from other characters like Corinn about Kel and Dancer's intentions. Then Dancer pretty much confirms everything said when he speaks directly to Temper.

I find this book to be quite intriguing because of how much we are required to read between the lines. Important questions are implicitly asked if you are paying attention. For example, how did Kel and Dancer even ascend? It is not discussed. One moment they are the missing rulers of an Empire, traveling the paths of the Azath, and then after entering their own home base of operations for the Old Guard on a very specific night, suddenly they appear not just in the Shadow Realm, but actually inside Shadowkeep, which is apparently impossible to enter from the outside unless you are enslaved to it. And also they just happened to usurp the Throne of Shadow and become Ascendants at the same time.

None of this is explained, it is just given to us as facts. (More questions: How did Kel and Dancer even arrive on Malaz Island? Probably via the Azath...) I can't see coincidence here, especially because it's the first book ICE wrote. If the end result was "we know nothing more about the 'Night of Knives' than we did after 10 MBotF books", why would he write it, and why would we read it?

My personal opinion (which I hold with great conviction) is that Kel and Dancer did plan the evening, it went they way they wanted, and they died falling from the top of a huge wall next to the sea to dangerous rocks far below. Dead. But not "gone". It is the night of the Shadow Moon. Oleg believes Kellanved has major plans; he is assassinated for saying so. But his shade "lives on" - he doesn't die like you would expect. He talks to Kiska and is around for several hours and the entire book.

THEN - Oleg plays a key role in the climax of the entire night. When Kel and Dancer attempt to enter the Deadhouse, Oleg tries to stop them, and would have defeated Kel if not for Dancer's help. Oleg is dead at this time. Completely dead. I strongly believe Kel and Dancer are also dead in the traditional sense of the word and exist as shades because of the Shadow Moon. This is, in fact, the path to claiming the Shadow Throne, which they discovered during their journeys through the Azath - because Shadowkeep is the physical representation of an Azath in the Shadow Realm (its "shadow", if you will).

How many times has physical death been a path to Ascension? Based on the entire MBotF, Kellanved is basically the smartest guy in the room, all the time. To assume he hadn't planned the evening of the Shadow Moon to the very last detail seems incredibly silly and out of character. It just doesn't even make sense, knowing how they viewed Surly and had no intention of continuing to rule the Empire. They return not because they hold a grudge, but to take even more power, keeping their agenda hidden. If that isn't classic, character-defining Kellanved behavior, nothing is.

[Abyss]

I understood that there were two points to their deaths, fake or otherwise...


One was to ensure a break between them and the Empire, thus the Empire would not be considered a human Empire allied with Shadow, and attract opposition from other Aspects and Gods; and,
Two, ascension requires 'sacrifice', and giving up rulership of an empire, and (apparently) their own lives, qualifies.


It's an interesting question whether they truly died when they fell from the window... Oleg has a rather odd 'death', but the various Bridgeburners and others who die during the night appear to stay that way (at least, for the night).