[Emurlahn]

Fanderay, on 06 July 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

Just getting caught up. I have read and re read Kesso's "case" on Togg and I think it comes across as some sort of "find". I think Kesso knows that Togg is in a separate faction to him and is trying to get him lynched.

An example has already been set of another players role revelation. Given this there's no reason for Kesso to BS about were he to have a find therefore I'm discounting your "sort of 'find.'" It is quite possible that Kesso knows Togg is in a different faction without needing a find for it.

[Fanderay]

I agree.

As to your earlier statement about my removal of vote, I did originally think we could have got a lynch with his vote, I also immediately was suspicious as to why we did not get a lynch, people hiding behind the weekend freeze to not lynch Merrid. There is no way in proving this though. At the time, (of my removal), there was not much activity on thread, and I did state I was still suspicious. Since then there has been quite a few posts by Kessobahn that, to me, have dug him a deeper hole.

[Denul]

Emurlahn, on 06 July 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Denul, on 05 July 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

I have read through the last day three times. Kesso your back pedaling though epic and grand, is just back pedaling. I was not able to be around for the reveal or end of day, or I would have voted. You were here for both. You have no acceptable excuses.

Vote Kesso.

You may now commence the mud flinging at me Kesso.

For someone who has read the last day 3 times I was hoping for more form you Denul.

I apologize, I only joined the game upon request to fill the numbers and my posting windows are very small. The only thing that stood out was Kesso floundering around like an ass.

[Kessobahn]

Okay, have a short break at work so will try to put some more thoughts together. Don’t expect to have another chance when I’m back home But at least we got the conversation going about something else than WHY U NO VOTE MERRID.

Olar Ethil, on 05 July 2016 - 11:27 PM, said:

How did the idea of a third faction originate? What makes you think that?

What Telas said: what kind of a faction game is that with two factions?

And about other point made by Telas:

Telas, on 06 July 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

That's precisely what I've been hammering Kesso on. His entire argument is that KF and Togg are power roles, and can't be School, because "largest faction with power roles is too OP"

I can see the possible logic, but I'm not convinced of the existence of this "Pro-School Guard" that Kesso is hinging all his assumptions on. As such, I'm not convinced that KF and Togg are not School power roles. And I'm not willing to risk them at this juncture.

That’s not exactly true. I said specifically that I think School has a vig (Buffy. I think Kadagar also mentioned this idea) and a Guard (because no NKs on first two nights. Yes there are other possible explanations but I roll with Guard as the most likely, no point in repeating walls of text from few posts above). From the CFs we’ve seen, it’s also likely that School has/had advantage in numbers. So if beyond that they also had a Finder, that sounds like a lot.

Emurlahn, on 06 July 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sorry, you seem to be claiming some knowledge of the functioning of the Vampire faction here. Because to those without a vamp PM for all we know every vamp can bite (recruit) therefore once you know who one is you kill them to stop them spreading. Leaving them alive even an extra day is bad. Since you're not thinking that you must have some pretty direct knowledge as to what they can do.

If every vampire could recruit, that would give them geometric growth. It would break the game.

Kadagar Fant, on 06 July 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

The issue then becomes: we had 2 NKs on night 3 (Aparal Forge, Student & Merrid, Vampire).
This would only be possible if one of those killers has never tried to kill before, and the guard shifted his target from the person they were guarding who did have a kill, to someone else - perhaps to Merrid?
Also, Merrid is not going to die by his own faction killing them, so it seems safe to assume that either the students have a vig, and/or the third party has a kill - but unless the and/and scenario is true, who killed the Student on night 3?

That’s pure speculation, but my idea is:
Guard guards a Killer on N1 and N2. You reveal Merrid on D3. On N3, Vig (Buffy) NKs Merrid, Guard switches the target (judging from the conversation from D3, possibly to Merrid or me?), Killer NKs Aparal.

In this setup, Guard is kind of fucked, because they know a killer, but cannot reveal and would need a good case to lead a lynch.

I still think we should poke the low-posters more (especially since my case against Togg looks dead in the water): Korlat, Emurlahn, Shadow, Denul, they’ve all been laying fairly low and it’s pretty late in the game already. I am particularly concerned with Korlat after I’ve specifically called them out for leading with a vote that Merrid followed with a bullshit case and having only 3 posts so far.

That’s the direction I think we should be looking if you don’t want to roll with the third faction theory.

Will be lurking from time to time but unlikely I will be able to post anything else for the next few hours.

[Kadagar Fant]

Kessobahn, on 06 July 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Emurlahn, on 06 July 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sorry, you seem to be claiming some knowledge of the functioning of the Vampire faction here. Because to those without a vamp PM for all we know every vamp can bite (recruit) therefore once you know who one is you kill them to stop them spreading. Leaving them alive even an extra day is bad. Since you're not thinking that you must have some pretty direct knowledge as to what they can do.

If every vampire could recruit, that would give them geometric growth. It would break the game.

One, yuo seemed happy to accept this as a risk when not voting Merrid, as everyone has been saying, trusting in your Guard - and the only reason I'd have to trust in a guard being around, is by knowing you are the guard. In which case, you'd make a case against the person you'd been guarding.

Two, you go by an extreme here. If the recruit mechanic worked the exact same as a shared kill usually does in town vs scum (aka: all killers are capable of a kill, but the killers specify a target together, not one each), there can be a recruiting faction with a shared recruit. If scum had to specify who performs the action, guards would also work against the performing player - if they don't have to, because all vampires can recruit, then a guard is useless until there is only 1 vamp left, just like in regular town vs scum.

Quote

Kadagar Fant, on 06 July 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

The issue then becomes: we had 2 NKs on night 3 (Aparal Forge, Student & Merrid, Vampire).
This would only be possible if one of those killers has never tried to kill before, and the guard shifted his target from the person they were guarding who did have a kill, to someone else - perhaps to Merrid?
Also, Merrid is not going to die by his own faction killing them, so it seems safe to assume that either the students have a vig, and/or the third party has a kill - but unless the and/and scenario is true, who killed the Student on night 3?

That’s pure speculation

No, that is pure speculation based on what we have from night results, using your speculated set-up.

Quote

, but my idea is:
Guard guards a Killer on N1 and N2. You reveal Merrid on D3. On N3, Vig (Buffy) NKs Merrid, Guard switches the target (judging from the conversation from D3, possibly to Merrid or me?), Killer NKs Aparal.

In this setup, Guard is kind of fucked, because they know a killer, but cannot reveal and would need a good case to lead a lynch.

But in the meantime, the guard just continues guarding, while not drawing attention to themselves, right? Worst case scenario they get lynched and the killer gets unleashed, but they saved time for their faction all the while to get a better read on the situation.

Quote

I still think we should poke the low-posters more (especially since my case against Togg looks dead in the water): Korlat, Emurlahn, Shadow, Denul, they’ve all been laying fairly low and it’s pretty late in the game already. I am particularly concerned with Korlat after I’ve specifically called them out for leading with a vote that Merrid followed with a bullshit case and having only 3 posts so far.

That’s the direction I think we should be looking if you don’t want to roll with the third faction theory.

Ehm, I think most players think there is a third faction, just not what it is made out of. My guess is it's Angel as a solo, but it could even be that it is the order that grooms Buffy, or maybe the Cordettes.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4. 12 hours 25 minutes remain.

10 players still alive: (Denul,Fanderay,Korlat,Kessobahn,Emurlahn,Telas,Shadow,Togg,Kadagar Fant,Olar Ethil)

6 votes to lynch. 6 votes to go night.

1 vote Korlat (Kessobahn)
3 votes Kessobahn (Denul, Emurlahn, Fanderay)
Players not voted: (Korlat,Telas,Shadow,Togg,Kadagar Fant,Olar Ethil)

[Telas]

As long as you're fixated on the hypothetical guard in your assumptions, you and me are gonna have to agree to disagree.

Not sure how much time i'll have to look into Shadow, Korlat and Denul today. If nothing else comes up, i'll settle for a Kesso lynch, since he's

1) possibly a vampire
2) trying hard to out School's likely power roles

[Shadow]

Kessobahn, on 06 July 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Okay, have a short break at work so will try to put some more thoughts together. Don’t expect to have another chance when I’m back home But at least we got the conversation going about something else than WHY U NO VOTE MERRID.

Olar Ethil, on 05 July 2016 - 11:27 PM, said:

How did the idea of a third faction originate? What makes you think that?

What Telas said: what kind of a faction game is that with two factions?

And about other point made by Telas:

Telas, on 06 July 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

That's precisely what I've been hammering Kesso on. His entire argument is that KF and Togg are power roles, and can't be School, because "largest faction with power roles is too OP"

I can see the possible logic, but I'm not convinced of the existence of this "Pro-School Guard" that Kesso is hinging all his assumptions on. As such, I'm not convinced that KF and Togg are not School power roles. And I'm not willing to risk them at this juncture.

That’s not exactly true. I said specifically that I think School has a vig (Buffy. I think Kadagar also mentioned this idea) and a Guard (because no NKs on first two nights. Yes there are other possible explanations but I roll with Guard as the most likely, no point in repeating walls of text from few posts above). From the CFs we’ve seen, it’s also likely that School has/had advantage in numbers. So if beyond that they also had a Finder, that sounds like a lot.

Emurlahn, on 06 July 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sorry, you seem to be claiming some knowledge of the functioning of the Vampire faction here. Because to those without a vamp PM for all we know every vamp can bite (recruit) therefore once you know who one is you kill them to stop them spreading. Leaving them alive even an extra day is bad. Since you're not thinking that you must have some pretty direct knowledge as to what they can do.

If every vampire could recruit, that would give them geometric growth. It would break the game.

Kadagar Fant, on 06 July 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

The issue then becomes: we had 2 NKs on night 3 (Aparal Forge, Student & Merrid, Vampire).
This would only be possible if one of those killers has never tried to kill before, and the guard shifted his target from the person they were guarding who did have a kill, to someone else - perhaps to Merrid?
Also, Merrid is not going to die by his own faction killing them, so it seems safe to assume that either the students have a vig, and/or the third party has a kill - but unless the and/and scenario is true, who killed the Student on night 3?

That’s pure speculation, but my idea is:
Guard guards a Killer on N1 and N2. You reveal Merrid on D3. On N3, Vig (Buffy) NKs Merrid, Guard switches the target (judging from the conversation from D3, possibly to Merrid or me?), Killer NKs Aparal.

In this setup, Guard is kind of fucked, because they know a killer, but cannot reveal and would need a good case to lead a lynch.

I still think we should poke the low-posters more (especially since my case against Togg looks dead in the water): Korlat, Emurlahn, Shadow, Denul, they’ve all been laying fairly low and it’s pretty late in the game already. I am particularly concerned with Korlat after I’ve specifically called them out for leading with a vote that Merrid followed with a bullshit case and having only 3 posts so far.

That’s the direction I think we should be looking if you don’t want to roll with the third faction theory.

Will be lurking from time to time but unlikely I will be able to post anything else for the next few hours.

Ok explain to me why this hypothetical Guard switches when Guarding that target had yielded two NK less nights?

[Kadagar Fant]

Telas, on 06 July 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

As long as you're fixated on the hypothetical guard in your assumptions, you and me are gonna have to agree to disagree.

Not sure how much time i'll have to look into Shadow, Korlat and Denul today. If nothing else comes up, i'll settle for a Kesso lynch, since he's

1) possibly a vampire
2) trying hard to out School's likely power roles

In addition to that, we're likely not going to be able to discuss much else than them.

Vote Kessobahn.

Let's get some closure on this. I keep turning in circles on them, and I doubt I'd somehow tbe able to fully 100% for once and for all accept them as Sunnydale High Student.

[Korlat]

Here here here. Sorry, just enjoyed the 3 day weekend too much...

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4. 10 hours 3 minutes remain.

10 players still alive: (Denul,Fanderay,Korlat,Kessobahn,Emurlahn,Telas,Shadow,Togg,Kadagar Fant,Olar Ethil)

6 votes to lynch. 6 votes to go night.

1 vote Korlat (Kessobahn)
4 votes Kessobahn (Denul, Emurlahn, Fanderay Kadagar Fant)

Players not voted: (Korlat,Telas,Shadow,Togg,Olar Ethil)

[Korlat]

OK, KF shifting over to Kesso after trying to deter the train building on him makes me think he is not found by KF.

Vote Kesso

[Korlat]

I am not sure why Togg and KF are being linked without dissent. Seems like everyone just accepted that as fact.

So, I think the school pool isn't really a faction. I think it is just a recruiting biomass for the factions with Buffy and crew standing guard over it. It has been years since I watched that show, but I am trying to remember what the other factions would be. Why would we just have two main teams in a 'faction' game?

We are also spending an awful lot of time on guard speculation, which doesn't seem all that productive in hunting recruiters or killers.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4. 9 hours 30 minutes remain.

10 players still alive: (Denul,Fanderay,Korlat,Kessobahn,Emurlahn,Telas,Shadow,Togg,Kadagar Fant,Olar Ethil)

6 votes to lynch. 6 votes to go night.

1 vote Korlat (Kessobahn)
5 votes Kessobahn (Denul, Emurlahn, Fanderay Kadagar Fant, Korlat)

Players not voted: (Telas,Shadow,Togg,Olar Ethil)

[Korlat]

Shadow, on 06 July 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

Kessobahn, on 06 July 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Okay, have a short break at work so will try to put some more thoughts together. Don’t expect to have another chance when I’m back home But at least we got the conversation going about something else than WHY U NO VOTE MERRID.

Olar Ethil, on 05 July 2016 - 11:27 PM, said:

How did the idea of a third faction originate? What makes you think that?

What Telas said: what kind of a faction game is that with two factions?

And about other point made by Telas:

Telas, on 06 July 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

That's precisely what I've been hammering Kesso on. His entire argument is that KF and Togg are power roles, and can't be School, because "largest faction with power roles is too OP"

I can see the possible logic, but I'm not convinced of the existence of this "Pro-School Guard" that Kesso is hinging all his assumptions on. As such, I'm not convinced that KF and Togg are not School power roles. And I'm not willing to risk them at this juncture.

That’s not exactly true. I said specifically that I think School has a vig (Buffy. I think Kadagar also mentioned this idea) and a Guard (because no NKs on first two nights. Yes there are other possible explanations but I roll with Guard as the most likely, no point in repeating walls of text from few posts above). From the CFs we’ve seen, it’s also likely that School has/had advantage in numbers. So if beyond that they also had a Finder, that sounds like a lot.

Emurlahn, on 06 July 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sorry, you seem to be claiming some knowledge of the functioning of the Vampire faction here. Because to those without a vamp PM for all we know every vamp can bite (recruit) therefore once you know who one is you kill them to stop them spreading. Leaving them alive even an extra day is bad. Since you're not thinking that you must have some pretty direct knowledge as to what they can do.

If every vampire could recruit, that would give them geometric growth. It would break the game.

Kadagar Fant, on 06 July 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

The issue then becomes: we had 2 NKs on night 3 (Aparal Forge, Student & Merrid, Vampire).
This would only be possible if one of those killers has never tried to kill before, and the guard shifted his target from the person they were guarding who did have a kill, to someone else - perhaps to Merrid?
Also, Merrid is not going to die by his own faction killing them, so it seems safe to assume that either the students have a vig, and/or the third party has a kill - but unless the and/and scenario is true, who killed the Student on night 3?

That’s pure speculation, but my idea is:
Guard guards a Killer on N1 and N2. You reveal Merrid on D3. On N3, Vig (Buffy) NKs Merrid, Guard switches the target (judging from the conversation from D3, possibly to Merrid or me?), Killer NKs Aparal.

In this setup, Guard is kind of fucked, because they know a killer, but cannot reveal and would need a good case to lead a lynch.

I still think we should poke the low-posters more (especially since my case against Togg looks dead in the water): Korlat, Emurlahn, Shadow, Denul, they’ve all been laying fairly low and it’s pretty late in the game already. I am particularly concerned with Korlat after I’ve specifically called them out for leading with a vote that Merrid followed with a bullshit case and having only 3 posts so far.

That’s the direction I think we should be looking if you don’t want to roll with the third faction theory.

Will be lurking from time to time but unlikely I will be able to post anything else for the next few hours.

Ok explain to me why this hypothetical Guard switches when Guarding that target had yielded two NK less nights?

I don't like you. Have been watching for your rare posts which are rarely that substantial. And as I said, it's odd to have such focus on guards, a role we traditionally discuss but then try to avoid so we don't lose that protection.

[Olar Ethil]

Any more discussion needed or shall I hammer? I'm quite happy to lynch now, I think we've got what we can out of this.

[Korlat]

Kay, I need to get ready for the day. Right now I am not sure what to do with the lot of you. Even though I am one of the low posters, that is where we need to start looking. Noisy people will probably end up as biomass (Kesso eg) but those with something to lose will be quiet or noisy and non-committal.

[Shadow]

Korlat, on 06 July 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

Shadow, on 06 July 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

Kessobahn, on 06 July 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Okay, have a short break at work so will try to put some more thoughts together. Don’t expect to have another chance when I’m back home But at least we got the conversation going about something else than WHY U NO VOTE MERRID.

Olar Ethil, on 05 July 2016 - 11:27 PM, said:

How did the idea of a third faction originate? What makes you think that?

What Telas said: what kind of a faction game is that with two factions?

And about other point made by Telas:

Telas, on 06 July 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

That's precisely what I've been hammering Kesso on. His entire argument is that KF and Togg are power roles, and can't be School, because "largest faction with power roles is too OP"

I can see the possible logic, but I'm not convinced of the existence of this "Pro-School Guard" that Kesso is hinging all his assumptions on. As such, I'm not convinced that KF and Togg are not School power roles. And I'm not willing to risk them at this juncture.

That’s not exactly true. I said specifically that I think School has a vig (Buffy. I think Kadagar also mentioned this idea) and a Guard (because no NKs on first two nights. Yes there are other possible explanations but I roll with Guard as the most likely, no point in repeating walls of text from few posts above). From the CFs we’ve seen, it’s also likely that School has/had advantage in numbers. So if beyond that they also had a Finder, that sounds like a lot.

Emurlahn, on 06 July 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sorry, you seem to be claiming some knowledge of the functioning of the Vampire faction here. Because to those without a vamp PM for all we know every vamp can bite (recruit) therefore once you know who one is you kill them to stop them spreading. Leaving them alive even an extra day is bad. Since you're not thinking that you must have some pretty direct knowledge as to what they can do.

If every vampire could recruit, that would give them geometric growth. It would break the game.

Kadagar Fant, on 06 July 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

The issue then becomes: we had 2 NKs on night 3 (Aparal Forge, Student & Merrid, Vampire).
This would only be possible if one of those killers has never tried to kill before, and the guard shifted his target from the person they were guarding who did have a kill, to someone else - perhaps to Merrid?
Also, Merrid is not going to die by his own faction killing them, so it seems safe to assume that either the students have a vig, and/or the third party has a kill - but unless the and/and scenario is true, who killed the Student on night 3?

That’s pure speculation, but my idea is:
Guard guards a Killer on N1 and N2. You reveal Merrid on D3. On N3, Vig (Buffy) NKs Merrid, Guard switches the target (judging from the conversation from D3, possibly to Merrid or me?), Killer NKs Aparal.

In this setup, Guard is kind of fucked, because they know a killer, but cannot reveal and would need a good case to lead a lynch.

I still think we should poke the low-posters more (especially since my case against Togg looks dead in the water): Korlat, Emurlahn, Shadow, Denul, they’ve all been laying fairly low and it’s pretty late in the game already. I am particularly concerned with Korlat after I’ve specifically called them out for leading with a vote that Merrid followed with a bullshit case and having only 3 posts so far.

That’s the direction I think we should be looking if you don’t want to roll with the third faction theory.

Will be lurking from time to time but unlikely I will be able to post anything else for the next few hours.

Ok explain to me why this hypothetical Guard switches when Guarding that target had yielded two NK less nights?

I don't like you. Have been watching for your rare posts which are rarely that substantial. And as I said, it's odd to have such focus on guards, a role we traditionally discuss but then try to avoid so we don't lose that protection.

I have been an infrequent poster, yes, trying to remedy that.

Kesso is the one talking about the Guard. I am just questioning his logic

[Telas]

Olar Ethil, on 06 July 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Any more discussion needed or shall I hammer? I'm quite happy to lynch now, I think we've got what we can out of this.

I think we're still @ L-2. But if you want to hammer, I can vote. Denul is saying they'll be low posting, Korlat and Shadow aren't producing much, and I have unreliable clients messing up my day schedule for 2 days in a row, so strongly doubt I'll have any substantial time to do good re-read on the low posters.

[Fanderay]

Path-Shaper, on 06 July 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

It is Day 4. 9 hours 30 minutes remain.

10 players still alive: (Denul,Fanderay,Korlat,Kessobahn,Emurlahn,Telas,Shadow,Togg,Kadagar Fant,Olar Ethil)

6 votes to lynch. 6 votes to go night.

1 vote Korlat (Kessobahn)
5 votes Kessobahn (Denul, Emurlahn, Fanderay Kadagar Fant, Korlat)

Players not voted: (Telas,Shadow,Togg,Olar Ethil)

Er Tels, definitely L-1 unless someone removed?