[Mezla PigDog]

Morgoth, on 06 January 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

And major companies that in large live off of exports to Europe have made no effort to figure out how to continue doing that, even though they've had years of warning. This company is still doing what they've always been doing, but by all accounts they're now actively (if unknowingly) committing large scale tax fraud in numerous EU countries.

I think rather than doing nothing they just assumed that common sense would win and we would have frictionless trade. Like the Leave campaign promised. Without the deal it was impossible to know precisely what to prepare for wasn't it?

Mac - are you seeing food "shortages" in NI or what? Not shortages per se but holes in supply of certain products? I'm still not letting my food stockpile dwindle because I read that if there are real issues on the mainland then they won't kick in until mid-January. I have this vision of catching covid at the same time as food shortages hit and everything being a shit show. But then I am pretty damn good at catastrophising.

[Macros]

Yes.

Fucking yes.

Dunnes Stores had literally no fruit and veg last week. Sure it was after the festive period but fuck it was empty. People forget most of our get comes from a greenhouse in Spain.


And the biggest blow for me a full 8 days

EIGHT DAYS

of no Presidenté Brie in ASDA. It's the best cheese ever

[Mezla PigDog]

Macros, on 10 January 2021 - 12:58 AM, said:

no Presidenté Brie in ASDA. It's the best cheese ever

That's got to be a violation of your human rights, surely.

[Macros]

I am bringing someone to the Hague for sure

[Morgoth]

Mezla PigDog, on 09 January 2021 - 07:24 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 06 January 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

And major companies that in large live off of exports to Europe have made no effort to figure out how to continue doing that, even though they've had years of warning. This company is still doing what they've always been doing, but by all accounts they're now actively (if unknowingly) committing large scale tax fraud in numerous EU countries.

I think rather than doing nothing they just assumed that common sense would win and we would have frictionless trade. Like the Leave campaign promised. Without the deal it was impossible to know precisely what to prepare for wasn't it?

Mac - are you seeing food "shortages" in NI or what? Not shortages per se but holes in supply of certain products? I'm still not letting my food stockpile dwindle because I read that if there are real issues on the mainland then they won't kick in until mid-January. I have this vision of catching covid at the same time as food shortages hit and everything being a shit show. But then I am pretty damn good at catastrophising.

But that's the thing, no deal, half a deal, or mega deal or whatever, it likely wouldn't have changed how this sort of thing plays out. When you do business in a country you, as a rule of thumb, have to register a company in that country. Your income in that country is taxable in that country, the people working for you doing business in that country are probably bound by the labour laws, the tax code, and everything else in that country and so on. The EU lets you skip all that. You can be a company in England and do business in France without having to establish a subsidiary in France (most of the time). Companies in the UK are no longer in the EU however, and will have to think about doing business in France as if it was, say Brazil, or South Korea, or Japan. This is not news. It's been known for years! Pretty much ever since the Brexit vote. And yet, somehow, it seems like the whole of the UK are living in some sort of weird collective delusion that Brexit will not change all that much, and there's certainly nothing to be done until the final agreement is in effect. Which is complete nonsense of course. The consequences are known, and have been known for years.

[Maark Abbott]

Morgoth, on 11 January 2021 - 08:14 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 09 January 2021 - 07:24 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 06 January 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

And major companies that in large live off of exports to Europe have made no effort to figure out how to continue doing that, even though they've had years of warning. This company is still doing what they've always been doing, but by all accounts they're now actively (if unknowingly) committing large scale tax fraud in numerous EU countries.

I think rather than doing nothing they just assumed that common sense would win and we would have frictionless trade. Like the Leave campaign promised. Without the deal it was impossible to know precisely what to prepare for wasn't it?

Mac - are you seeing food "shortages" in NI or what? Not shortages per se but holes in supply of certain products? I'm still not letting my food stockpile dwindle because I read that if there are real issues on the mainland then they won't kick in until mid-January. I have this vision of catching covid at the same time as food shortages hit and everything being a shit show. But then I am pretty damn good at catastrophising.

But that's the thing, no deal, half a deal, or mega deal or whatever, it likely wouldn't have changed how this sort of thing plays out. When you do business in a country you, as a rule of thumb, have to register a company in that country. Your income in that country is taxable in that country, the people working for you doing business in that country are probably bound by the labour laws, the tax code, and everything else in that country and so on. The EU lets you skip all that. You can be a company in England and do business in France without having to establish a subsidiary in France (most of the time). Companies in the UK are no longer in the EU however, and will have to think about doing business in France as if it was, say Brazil, or South Korea, or Japan. This is not news. It's been known for years! Pretty much ever since the Brexit vote. And yet, somehow, it seems like the whole of the UK are living in some sort of weird collective delusion that Brexit will not change all that much, and there's certainly nothing to be done until the final agreement is in effect. Which is complete nonsense of course. The consequences are known, and have been known for years.

A lot seem to have bought into the Conservative position that "nothing will change". Sunlit uplands, easiest transition ever, all that jazz. The propaganda saying "let's get ready for our exciting new start" (HAH) only started popping up on Spotify for me within the last three months.

Of course, don't tell a Breklet that the consequences have been known for years or you're just another Ramona.

[Gorefest]

As Maark says, the Tories have been continuously repeating the message that nothing changes under a Deal scenario. So most UK companies will just have assumed that as part of the trade deal, the pre-Brexit EU regulations would hold up.

[Morgoth]

But how is it possible to be so blind? I mean, people, sure I get it, they don't really think about taxes and VAT rules and place of income and all that. A company though? A major company living mostly off exports? And it's just not one company! Every single one of our UK suppliers are in the same position, not to mention the universities. They have no clue, and seem genuinely baffled that this is will become some sort of issue.

Not to mention the universities - centers of learning that they are, they'll lose access to Horizon, and all the other absurdly enormous sources of EU research funding. We're talking billions in research grants that will now go elsewhere. From what I can tell there's no plans to deal with the ramifications of that either. Edit: I had to double check, and no, it seems like the UK managed to retain access, in return for a hefty payment to the EU, but still, the universities are fine in that regard after all. Now they just need to learn the customs rules of the EU so that they can continue sending stuff around.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 11 January 2021 - 04:48 PM

[Imperial Historian]

Morgoth, on 11 January 2021 - 04:43 PM, said:

But how is it possible to be so blind? I mean, people, sure I get it, they don't really think about taxes and VAT rules and place of income and all that. A company though? A major company living mostly off exports? And it's just not one company! Every single one of our UK suppliers are in the same position, not to mention the universities. They have no clue, and seem genuinely baffled that this is will become some sort of issue.

It's an example of collective group think, the government has been telling us nothing will change, we've been hoping nothing will change, but surprise surprise it has changed. It took my company 3 months before brexit to finally prepare for it. I imagine most will be similar.

Collective failure of the UK government and companies in the UK to really understand what life outside the UK looks like

[glasseye]

My company did prepare for Brexit by turning its offices in Ireland into a subsidiary a couple of years ago so at least some companies were on the ball.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Drivers have sandwiches confiscated at Dutch border

[...] One driver coming off the ferry from Britain with ham sandwiches wrapped in tinfoil was heard pleading with the border guard: "Can you take the meat and leave me the bread?" The official replied: "No, everything will be confiscated – welcome to the Brexit, sir. I'm sorry."'

https://www.independ...s-b1785384.html

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 January 2021 - 10:21 PM

[Grief]

glasseye, on 11 January 2021 - 09:47 PM, said:

My company did prepare for Brexit by turning its offices in Ireland into a subsidiary a couple of years ago so at least some companies were on the ball.

Yeah honestly there are a lot of companies so it was always going to be possible to find some that didn't prepare effectively.

I think it's fair to say that the last minute deal did not help firms. But a deal was always going to be last minute by its nature.

I suspect the cost of unecessary contingency planning actually outweighs the cost of some firms not being prepared, overall. Both are blips in the great scheme of brexit-related economic damage though.

[Maark Abbott]

Morgoth, it seems you give the British people far too much credit. Which is commendable but... Much as an Imass thinking. Futile.

We have a variant of American exceptionalism here - "this country ruled half the world, so we can do what we want, everyone will give us what we want and that's how the world works" is a very common viewpoint among nationalists here. Given that the empire really only properly died in the last fifty odd years, getting shot of that viewpoint and realising we're not really a major player now will take time. There's also that out of all the European area nations, the UK seems the most prone to mindlessly obeying what people with money say - which is a large part of why people trusted that the Tories would do right by the country, and not just right by themselves at the expense of the country. They have money and power, so they must be inherently good and capable!

It's a decidedly sorry state of affairs here and unlikely to get any better during my lifetime as I see it.

In related news...

It's coming out that the UK rejected an offer of visa free touring for musicians - which is going to severely hamper a lot of people I know who regularly go to the continent for tours / festivals etc. They will now need a visa per country to play and as such it's going to reduce the fiscal viability of touring to nearly nil. Sure, they could tour here, but then every band and their mum is going to be fighting over venues, which are being closed left, right and centre. Doesn't affect me personally yet but could well do in the near future.

[Macros]

Agree with Maark, the sheer volume of people holding the view point of Britain is too important to get shafted is phenomenal.

They still think we are at high/post empire where the snap of their majesty's fingers prompted jumps all around the globe.

The UK is a diminishing economy, especially in industry and production, few accept this.
We haven't invested heavily enough in tech and digital infrastructure yet and are as a consequence lagging behind on this as well.

A lot of Brexiteering drive was purely of jealousy of Germany and France running the rule over the EU,that should be Britain's job you ungrateful dogs, we ruled the world, we know how to do it.

Hell the amount of people that try and justify Britain's colonialism with 'yeah but they were great administrators when they occupied'
Raping a country for every penny they have and keeping the native population down teodded is not 'good administration' it despotism

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 12 January 2021 - 08:57 AM, said:

Agree with Maark, the sheer volume of people holding the view point of Britain is too important to get shafted is phenomenal.

They still think we are at high/post empire where the snap of their majesty's fingers prompted jumps all around the globe.

The UK is a diminishing economy, especially in industry and production, few accept this.
We haven't invested heavily enough in tech and digital infrastructure yet and are as a consequence lagging behind on this as well.

A lot of Brexiteering drive was purely of jealousy of Germany and France running the rule over the EU,that should be Britain's job you ungrateful dogs, we ruled the world, we know how to do it.

Hell the amount of people that try and justify Britain's colonialism with 'yeah but they were great administrators when they occupied'
Raping a country for every penny they have and keeping the native population down teodded is not 'good administration' it despotism

The only thing that's left is for us to literally hatefuck a god into existing. Then we'll have completed the cycle.

Lube up boys, it's Eldar time!

[Grief]

I think there's also an opposite tendency of Remainers to downplay the UK economically in discussions of Brexit.

For example, the UK is far from a tech laggard in European terms.

• The UK has more jobs in the high-tech knowledge-intensive service sector than anywhere else in Europe.
  
• The UK represents around 11.5% of global cross-border data flows; considerably more than its GDP.
  
• London produces considerably more in terms of tech startups and tech funding than any other hub in Europe.

And so on.

When it comes to the tech sector the UK is generally ahead of its European rivals, mostly by a large distance.

Now we can also discuss digital infrastructure across the country more broadly. The most recent EU DESI ranking places the UK 8th, compared to Germany in 12th and France in 15th.

I'd agree that the perception of Germany and France running the EU contributed to Brexit though; especially because it's always easier to blame Europe for policy than admit that you were happy to accept or even pushed for that policy in Europe.

[Macros]

Deja vu

I just had a massive deja vu, I'm not saying you're repeating yourself or reposting, I'm just sitting here thinking, fuck I have definitely read this post before like it was ab intense deja vu

[Maark Abbott]

Grief, on 12 January 2021 - 08:26 PM, said:

I think there's also an opposite tendency of Remainers to downplay the UK economically in discussions of Brexit.

For example, the UK is far from a tech laggard in European terms.

• The UK has more jobs in the high-tech knowledge-intensive service sector than anywhere else in Europe.
• The UK represents around 11.5% of global cross-border data flows; considerably more than its GDP.
• London produces considerably more in terms of tech startups and tech funding than any other hub in Europe.

And so on.

When it comes to the tech sector the UK is generally ahead of its European rivals, mostly by a large distance.

Now we can also discuss digital infrastructure across the country more broadly. The most recent EU DESI ranking places the UK 8th, compared to Germany in 12th and France in 15th.

I'd agree that the perception of Germany and France running the EU contributed to Brexit though; especially because it's always easier to blame Europe for policy than admit that you were happy to accept or even pushed for that policy in Europe.

Let's consider that despite all of the above, the UK also has the majority of the most impoverished areas in the entire European region. Of which I live in the region crowned the most impoverished area overall, when last I checked. Cheers, Thatcher.

Of course that was contributory in itself because exceptionalism and the mentality that we are inherently better than mainlanders means that such poverty in the 21st century could never possibly be the work of domestic policy (namely austerity, which is just an egregious wealth transfer really). It has to be those dratted foreigners!

A lot of independent craft brewers are now no longer able to ship UK to EU (due to some form of prohibition on alcohol as I've read it) or EU to UK due to increased tax making it unprofitable. That said Breklets tend towards Carling and Stella so it won't really affect them,.

[Tiste Simeon]

That last sentence sums up the quitter thinking nicely. If it doesn't effect them, why should they care?

It will effect them of course, but in ways it'll be easier to blame others rather than admit they've made a colossal mistake.

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 13 January 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

That last sentence sums up the quitter thinking nicely. If it doesn't effect them, why should they care?

It will effect them of course, but in ways it'll be easier to blame others rather than admit they've made a colossal mistake.

It will impact those who voted for it most vociferously to a disproportionate level as well - again using my local area as an example. We have hugely benefited from the regeneration fund - which is of course beyond reach now. Last thing Tories really did for us was... checking notebook... close the pits. The area was still recovering since then, and there's still a very high rate of things like teenage pregnancy, substance abuse and unemployment around here. Our own government realistically don't care about this area (as it isn't London) - it's a low income area as well so any increase in food prices at all will hit us hard.