[worry]

**Not using spoiler tags, and talk of all books to this point welcome**

I wouldn't normally start my own thread, but a lot of people are taking things slow with this one -- totally understandable -- and I don't want to piggyback any.



Sooooooo....I loved it. This might be the darkest Erikson book yet, which is saying something. And there are SO many answers. At times I couldn't believe the glut of information. It fills in the blanks AND expands the world even more than I'd come to expect.

In that light, one of the funniest things about this book is the Dramatis Personae. FoD had mind-blowing information right from the start in that list, with crazy revelations and intriguing implications in abundance. And then FoL's DP is pretty much just lists of Tiste, most we know, and a bunch we hardly get to know. No list of Azathanai, no list of all the other races we know are gonna show up for the War on Death, not even an Others section. I had to laugh at that and knew some huge things were in store.

A lot in this book, especially around Gothos, but occasionally with the Tiste contemplates the big questions re: civilization. The stuff with Gothos in particular makes me wonder if SE is already thinking ahead some to the Karsa books. I can't see Gothos not being a part of them, to some degree, for his stance on civilization alone (not to mention Icarium will likely be accompanying Ublala).

An early scene that struck me was Syntara naming High House Light. Obviously there are the Greater and Lesser Houses of the nobles, but I think here syntara is naming her religion -- and thus her High Priestesshood -- above even the nobility. It's a profoundly arrogant act, and to me puts the origins of the High Houses in a new light.

The earliest scenes of the Civil War, against Ilgast Rend and the Wardens, was brutal. Even before the clash of soldiers, that girl chasing the boy down. Really nailed the point home there. The civilian sightseers of course have some origin in the early days of the US Civil War, which was an interesting thing to thrust into the Tiste, and added one more layer of tarnish to the whole debacle. There's a bitter laugh line a few chapters later where Hunn Raal tells Syntara to "keep it civil" in her religious war with Emral Lanear. There's a lot to hate about him, but his black hole desolation makes him a really great character.

I know others have covered the Korya "twelve lifetimes" comment from Haut, and how that points pretty directly to Quick Ben in one way or another, but there's another line from Gothos (IIRC) to Arathan that points to his own Ruthan Gudd connection imo. Much was made about Arathan being Drac's son but Ruthan calling Drac a friend. Well here Gothos pretty directly advises Arathan to someday "meet his eye and call him friend" -- Arathan is skeptical of course, but Gothos goes on to say Drac already think of Arathan as one.

I noticed that Ilgast Rend's widow is named Raelle of House Sengara -- precursors to the Sengars mayhaps? She seems pretty furious that Rend was summarily beheaded after the battle.

There are a couple people who are called "feral" throughout the novel, which reminded me of course of the as-yet-unseen TA assassin. I originally (as in during FoD) thought it might be Lahanis, but as of now she's with the Deniers (love the schism between the Deniers and the Shake, btw -- it seems to presage the Edur vs Shake distinction, but not in such a clearcut way). Anyway, the first is Caplo Dreem, who gets called "feral" pretty often and is of course an assassin. But then it turns out to be connected with his becoming D'ivers, presumably. And how mindbending was that whole process? Anyway, Feral is described as a woman anyway -- which doesn't always mean much, but I'm thinking it's not him. The other character who gets called "feral" often enough -- though she's hardly in FoD and only in FoL through mention by others -- is young hostage Legyl Behust.

We don't see Serrat at all or some of the other GotM Soletaken yet. Curious to see if they'll show up. We DO see Sorrit though, which is kinda sad given her fate. And of course we see Silandah! Didn't expect her to be among the nine, to be frank (and did we see all nine? I forgot to keep track). And her connection to "passion" -- fascinating! Also there was some talk about like "to the extent we can die" from one of the dragons -- not the exact wording -- but it made me wonder if a dead dragon can be reborn when Tiam reforms and then disperses. Also thought it was kinda crazy that Tiam has a Smaug-like weak spot whenever she forms, but it's in a different spot each time -- and that spot is essentially one actual dragon.

And btw how cool were the Citadel eggheads in this book? In FoD they were passive observers, and often extremely welcome comic relief, at least until Endest Silann gets his stigmata. We even get to see Gallan hanging out for a short while. Anyway, if any of them was bound to turn conniving I was sure it was gonna be Cedorpul -- and he almost does, until Endest convinces him otherwise in that heartbreaking scene outside Karkhanas. Rise Herat seemed the more affable fellow, but his conspiracy with Emral just consistently gave me that feeling of impending tragedy. The whole thing is understandable and dreadful at the same time. It's also amazing how much Syntara and Emral hate each other since they're such two peas in a pod.

Interesting that we get the apparent birth of the concepts of Mortal Sword and Destriant, but the Shield Anvil doesn't come up. This might be a War of Death thing that comes up.

Lastly (for now?) I want to say I was very curious before this if and how SE would keep the love of my life, Olar Ethil, part of the story. But oh boy was she present in all her glory. That scene with her mesmerizing Hunn Raal was one of my favorite things in the whole book -- creepy, perverse, enlightening, threatening, and even pretty hilarious all at once. And then her appearance at Dracons Hold. Her jealousy, her protectiveness, her motherly aspect, her absolute brutality. And I believe it is absolutely Olar Ethil who is behind the Draconus-Finnest/Sandalath scene. She even speaks her bitter words of being spurned through Sand, and even the Finnest is said to have a "helpless" look on its face. And the very ritual of forcing the conception between them seems like something OE would do (though I'm not sure if/how she can control that Finnest). In the FoD Recap thread I mentioned the connection between OE and Tiam, and I was exceptionally glad to see that passage about the similarity of the origin stories (which included Burn too, I believe). This is a world where maybe all of the origin stories have some truth to them, and yet all are shrouded in the mysteries of time long past. I love it.

I also still kinda think there's an element of "undead"ness that will be new to this world due to the War on Death. There are already ghosts, and one of the Thel Akai even uses the word Revenant, but in the sense of the T'lan Imass, or the Seguleh 2nd, or Tulas Shorn, I think that kind of return will be just as novel as K'rul's warrens at this point. I still could be wrong, of course, but it's itching at me. Speaking of things returning from the dead though, I think the last book is gonna have some heartbreaking stuff in store for Korabas.

Anyway, that's all my thoughts for now. There's so much I didn't cover, I know. This book is seriously jam-packed. Like I said, I finished the book, so feel free to talk about whatever.

[qcp]

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An early scene that struck me was Syntara naming High House Light. Obviously there are the Greater and Lesser Houses of the nobles, but I think here syntara is naming her religion -- and thus her High Priestesshood -- above even the nobility. It's a profoundly arrogant act, and to me puts the origins of the High Houses in a new light.

I agree here. If you think back to the Liosan that are encountered in the main series arrogance is a major personality trait for most if not all of them. Perhaps arrogance is a side effect of being light aspected.

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Interesting that we get the apparent birth of the concepts of Mortal Sword and Destriant, but the Shield Anvil doesn't come up. This might be a War of Death thing that comes up.

I thought it was interesting that while Hunn Raal named himself Mortal Sword that Syntara thought Destriant would have been a more suitable title for him. And later in the book after the battle when Renarr moves to stand near Hunn Raal, Erikson actually refers to him as Destriant.

"Mockery attended the moment, and in this respect Hunn Raal belonged to this scene. He had recovered from the sorcerous battle, if one chose to ignore the ruptured pads of the palms of his hands, the gaping, bloodless fissures streaking his fingers. That, and the incessant low tremble that the destriant fought with sips from his flask. Still, he stood in the manner of a man wholly satisfied."

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I also still kinda think there's an element of "undead"ness that will be new to this world due to the War on Death.

Another good point, but I'm not sure if this is directly due to the actual war on death or just simply a side effect of Hood opening the gate to the realm of death and more importantly the gate being, as of yet, unguarded/unsealed.

[worry]

I noticed that Destriant thing too! Hunn Raal has some rude awakenings in store, no doubt.

As for the undead thing, I essentially agree with you. The ghosts Wreneck sees were said to be something like that. It's less a theory than a hunch. I just can't get over the symbolism of the Bridge in the Jaghut underworld. I'm open to anything!

[nacht]

I wanted to reread again before getting into discussions on this but Worry's own thread. How can I resist :-)

I was confused by a few things.

Urusander/Father Light - He seemed completely powerless and his legion's atrocities were definitely against his love for justice. One one hand he seemed to be giving tacit approval to Hunn Raal. I just didn't get this guy.
That Supposed painting of Draconus at a much earlier time in history fighting in another Tiste civil war. - What the heck was that?

If Draconus loves MD so much, why does he go fucking around and creating children with so many others.

[worry]

Urusander is indeed a curious case. I don't know that he "loves" justice so much as he's obsessed with it, but perhaps that obsession is itself a distraction. He's a man of war who may have ultimately been broken by it. He definitely expected to live a retired life, and he's a widower. It's impossible to say if these are reasons, or if there are others, but he cannot act. Every proclamation he makes about justice comes with an implied (and sometimes explicit) "Someday..."

It's interesting, because near the end there's a seeming accord between Mother Dark and Father Light's inaction, and I wonder to what degree they actually match up. MD of course explains hers to Emral, but as far as I recall FL never has such a moment. I think this is gonna continue to be something to chew over with theories and speculation.

The tapestry: First of all, I think it's further evidence that Draconus is the Azathanai who "created" the Tiste -- I don't even know if "created" is the right word, but "fosters" comes to mind as well. Whatever it is the Azathanai do to their chosen mortals. So there's that. Second of all, there's an implication of repetition. Draconus has done this before, long ago, with early Tiste. And the implication there is that he failed at something, perhaps failed the Tiste themselves somehow? Another lost civil war? A corruption by the Eleint? It's all unclear as of yet. That said, it seems that this time around Draconus is trying to do things differently. He's gifted Mother Dark with godhood. He's given her (and the Tiste people) the Terondai. He even agrees not to interfere in the battle. But of course all that comes to naught, he shows up anyway, the nobles leave, and Mother Dark's side loses. I think it might be reasonable to speculate that the Finnest is a new tactic too, leaving most of himself out of the equation. That earlier scene when Draconus agrees to leave -- heartbreaking. The fact that he doesn't leave, that he actually joins his Houseblades and perhaps tries to fight for MD, his love, in another civil war, and loses AGAIN (speculation on the outcome of the ancient war, I know) is perhaps even more heartbreaking. His ambitions are apparently above those of Olar Ethil or Kilmandaros or Vix or Skillen; he's attempting something better. I'm not sure he even meant to fall in love with Mother Dark. Regardless, it's not turning out any better. Draconus might be the Suzerain of Night, but he's the God of Tiste Failure. (Luckily, in the long term, at least T'riss is there to balance things out this time?). Third, we already know that Dracons Hold is at least 500 years old (my guess is much older) and of course Draconus is the one who founded it...everyone who's ruled there since he left the first time has essentially done so as cover for him (unknowingly, at this point in time, probably -- and presuming he ever left, given Azathanai shapeshifting).

As to your last question, presumably he's a man of passion and loves to boink. That said, I think the romantic relationship between Draconus and MD is post-war? Or at least Arathan & his sisters predate it? I don't actually know if that's ever spelled out either way, but I can't think he's been Consort for the last 18 years.

[Axey]

One thing is for certain, Draconus is one hell of a ladies man. Draconus + Arathan's mother = Arathan. Draconus + Olar Ethil = Malice, Envy and Spite. Then hes off giving some sweet loving to MD. The Suzerain of Night is a sex addict.

Anyone else pondered over Arathan's mother. The name Arathan meaning "walk on water". Doesn't Mael have daughters? Plus where is Nightchill the sister of night? I doubt she is actually Draconus sister and K'rul is not his actual brother though all 3 are explained as such when they confront Kallor.

[Selush]

Here is a Draconus quote from FoD:

‘Understand, Arathan. If you were to have remained at my keep, you would have been vulnerable. I have enemies. Your half-sisters, however, are protected. Though their mother is no longer with us, her family is powerful. The same cannot be said for your mother. To get to me, my enemies could well look to you. Especially now, as you come of age.’

That always made me think that Arathan's mother is not Azathanai.


Also, Draconus's "love" for MD seems more like unhealthy obsession to me. And do we see any real indication from her that she truly loves him.

This post has been edited by Selush: 14 May 2016 - 04:04 AM

[Andorion]

Selush, on 14 May 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

Here is a Draconus quote from FoD:

'Understand, Arathan. If you were to have remained at my keep, you would have been vulnerable. I have enemies. Your half-sisters, however, are protected. Though their mother is no longer with us, her family is powerful. The same cannot be said for your mother. To get to me, my enemies could well look to you. Especially now, as you come of age.'

That always made me think that Arathan's mother is not Azathanai.


Also, Draconus's "love" for MD seems more like unhealthy obsession to me. And do we see any real indication from her that she truly loves him.

Yes, when Draconus is injured after fighting the D'ivers, MD enfolds him lovingly land heals him.

An extremely tragic aspect of the book is the slow realization that MD and Draco do in fact love each other, and circumstances have doomed them to tragedy. I mean I was running with Draconus using MD for long term plans, but as the book rolled on, it became apparent that he was in fact sincere. That hurt.

[Selush]

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Yes, when Draconus is injured after fighting the D'ivers, MD enfolds him lovingly land heals him.

An extremely tragic aspect of the book is the slow realization that MD and Draco do in fact love each other, and circumstances have doomed them to tragedy. I mean I was running with Draconus using MD for long term plans, but as the book rolled on, it became apparent that he was in fact sincere. That hurt.

Still not feeling the love

[Andorion]

Selush, on 14 May 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

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Yes, when Draconus is injured after fighting the D'ivers, MD enfolds him lovingly land heals him.

An extremely tragic aspect of the book is the slow realization that MD and Draco do in fact love each other, and circumstances have doomed them to tragedy. I mean I was running with Draconus using MD for long term plans, but as the book rolled on, it became apparent that he was in fact sincere. That hurt.

Still not feeling the love

Quote

He felt her touch upon his shoulder, and then she spoke. ‘You heal quickly, my love.’
‘I was once beset in a like manner,’ Draconus said. ‘Back then, it was hounds.’ He hesitated, feeling her essence closing gently around him. ‘Hounds are cleverer than panthers. The assassin was new to his curse. He left too much to their instincts. Cats hunt in the manner of pinning or binding their prey, clinging tight, jaws about the windpipe, until the prey suffocates. But hounds … well, as I said. They are cleverer.’
‘Yet you survived both.’
He said nothing for a long moment, and then sighed heavily. ‘My love, what would you have me do?’
Mother Dark’s embrace was all-consuming, impossibly tender, and in utterly engulfing him she took away the world: the forest and standing stones, the unfinished wagon and its chains, the pools of blood upon the ground. ‘Beloved, my heart is for you. As it was, as it is, and as it shall ever be.’
He nodded. ‘As you will, then.’
‘You tremble. Does my touch hurt you?’
‘No.’
‘Then … what?’
He was thinking of the D’ivers hounds, all those centuries past. Assailing him from all sides. Even with the fullness of his power, they had nearly torn him apart. ‘Nothing of import,’ he said after a moment. ‘Just memories.’
‘Let not the past haunt you, my love. In that realm, we are all ghosts.’
‘As you say.’
She kept the world away for some time, and he was content with that.

[Axey]

Selush, on 14 May 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

Here is a Draconus quote from FoD:

'Understand, Arathan. If you were to have remained at my keep, you would have been vulnerable. I have enemies. Your half-sisters, however, are protected. Though their mother is no longer with us, her family is powerful. The same cannot be said for your mother. To get to me, my enemies could well look to you. Especially now, as you come of age.'

That always made me think that Arathan's mother is not Azathanai

Good spot. Plus his mother is wallowing in grief. I suppose his mother should be a Tiste as no one makes comment on Arathans appearance other than being ordinary. Plus she is known to other Azathanai and Olar Ethil laughed when told of Arathan's name, Walk on Water in their language.

[Nevyn]

Glad to hear that others enjoyed the book, but I was not much of a fan,

The revelations and hints as always are fun, and as always pose as many questions as answers.

For me (and I found this to a lesser extent on a FoD re-read), I have just found the style of this to grate on me. Not every bit character needs drawn out philisophocal soliloquies. Heck, some or Erikson's best writing is of 'empty vessel' type characters. The book finishes with a flourish, but it only really feels that way, because for most of the rest .... nothing happens.

QB relation to Korya did indeed get more confirmation, but that was the most strongly hinted already.

Still little of satisfaction on the subject of Edgewalker, Ruthan Gudd, Tay, etc. I also caught the "friend" hint worry refers to, but felt it was more a tease from Erikson than any truly meaningful hint. Arathan got to do basically nothing this whole book.

And of course, we see more of what was in Draconus' tower room (and we get Korlat as a result), but to me at least, that part wasn't particularly clear either.


Also, am I alone in suspecting that this will no longer be a trilogy? It is either going to be more books than advertised or resolve far less of the story than we may have expected.

[worry]

It's definitely going to be a trilogy, and it's definitely going to cover the origins of the Tiste schism. I thought it might cover more time, but only in terms of years, not centuries or anything. I'm more than happy with the way my expectations were defied in that regard, and am fine using my imagination to fill in the gaps between this and, say, the exodus of Scabandari & Silchas or the forging of Dragnipur. I'm sure we'll get enough info to connect the dots to at least some degree.

"Nothing happens" is, as usual, just not a complaint that registers with me at all. It's nothing personal (different strokes etc.) but 1) (in general) it just strikes me as a weird assumption/demand re: what is supposed to happen in a story and 2) (in this specific novel) so so soooooo much happens. Like I just don't personally accept these definitions of "nothing" vs "something" I guess. I reiterate, different strokes for different folks; I'm just saying the gulf between what we wanted from this book appears to be wide and deep.

[worry]

That said, if you have a list of events you wanted to see depicted on page, and you say to yourself "this is THE Kharkanas Trilogy, the only one SE is gonna write" -- when he doesn't hit those events, you're bound to be disappointed. It's like your favorite band touring rarely, and the one time you get to see them, they don't play any of your favorite songs. I totally understand that (as distinct from -- or at least encapsulated in -- "nothing happens").

[petete]

Nevyn, on 14 May 2016 - 05:39 AM, said:

I also caught the "friend" hint worry refers to, but felt it was more a tease from Erikson than any truly meaningful hint. Arathan got to do basically nothing this whole book

Tease? really? sometimes I feel a little silly discussing these topics in this forum, fun as it is, talking (writing) about little bits, hints, theories,etc., when we know that SE is a guy that can't even keep ages and events straight in his head (Harllo's age [the youngesr] ... c'mon, SE, pay attention). And so we obsess over little hints like the acorn and such ... when SE brings little internal coherence, at times.

Fun, though, these forums. Rant over

This post has been edited by petete: 14 May 2016 - 07:06 AM

[worry]

Can't agree. I find the books to be massively coherent, the discrepancies minor (a few years here and there in what is an almost cosmological time span), and hints/teases with accompanying scrutiny fundamental to this style of storytelling. Without the forums I'd still be doing this, just with much less success.

[Puck]

Not much time, but I do have to agree with worry here. It probably ultimately comes down to preferences, but I find little inconsistencies in the books, but I also don't care about a couple of years not adding up in a story that spand hundreds of thousands of years and is quite obviously inspired by the storytelling span and style of mythologies and history (and anyone who goes looking for consistency there is quite obviously insane). Personally, I also would be doing all those things like dissembling hints and marvelling at the writing style (because for me, the style is a HUGE part of why I enjoy these books) even without any kind of forum. I want to see anyone who complains about so-called inconsistencies keep all that stuff straight in their head and also write an actually interesting story. People tend to forget that those are not necessarily the same thing.

And Harllo needed to be the age he is in TtH for SE to tell the story he wanted to tell, I don't see what's so difficult to understand in that basic premise. This is storytelling, and it evolves organically. Not be an ass, but the supposed need for so called consistency shows its traps in a certain other loved series currently in everyone's face and it seems to be backfiring spectacularly.

This post has been edited by Puck: 14 May 2016 - 07:49 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 14 May 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Can't agree. I find the books to be massively coherent, the discrepancies minor (a few years here and there in what is an almost cosmological time span), and hints/teases with accompanying scrutiny fundamental to this style of storytelling. Without the forums I'd still be doing this, just with much less success.

Agreed. I'm not saying SE is perfect (I don't think anybody could be over such a huge world and timeline) but sometimes I do feel like people ride the "oh but, mistakes!" train for the sake of having something to pick at. For me, it's remarkable just how few and how minor the discrepancies are.

[Axey]

I dont let a few inconsistencies bother me as long as they are minor. Imagine the scale and complexity of planning needed to bring a series like this to life. I am sure the notes and timelines kept by both authors must be extremely extensive.

[petete]

Oh, I'm not hating on SE or anything like that, I do love the books and such, but sometimes, when we start thinking and connecting all the little in all the books, I can't help but think that SE didn't really intend for us to connect them. For example, I was reading a Q&A in Tor.com, I don't remember which book (the one where Quick Ben's acorn first appear, where he gives it to Kalam, House of Chains?), where SE is frankly surprised at the connections and theories that fans came up with (and in one answer, he even got a bit exasperated and said "yeah whatever, let's go with that").

I agree that the world and the timeline is huge and it must be difficult to keep all straight in the head, but just because I need a boy to be 5/6 years old for my story, I do it even though he should be 2/3 yo? And let's not go into GotM (even with its own term, "GotMism"), we could write a lot: Tool "deadening" sorcery just in that book, Orfantal gender, etc.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread

This post has been edited by petete: 14 May 2016 - 03:26 PM