[Tattersail_]

17 players alive: ADL, Andorion, Blend, Bliss, Bubba, Coltain93, Dhenrabi, Gusty, HO, Itwas Nom, Khell, Kitsu, Macros, Mess, Sergiej, Tapper, Tatts

9 votes to lynch, 9 votes to night.

Votes:
4 votes Itwas Nom: Khellendros, Andorion, Blend, Coltaine93
3 votes Andorion: Itwas Nom, HiddenOne, ADemonLlama
2 votes Tattersail: Macros, Gust Hubb
2 vote HiddenOne: Bubba, Tattersail
1 vote Gusty: Sergiej
1 vote Macros: Just Plain Kitsu

[Messremb]

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

HiddenOne, on 26 April 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

DKT style catch up^TM is complete, so back to work - I'm out of time to slack off

Yet he added no content, replied to a few quotes with cheeky one liners, and hurtfully didn't mention me once. Sounds bitchy doesn't it, but if you look, Andorion, Messremb, Tapper, Macros, Dhenrabi, had all mentioned me, quoted me and I'd been voted. He doesn't mention Ando's 2 votes on him, nothing mentioned by HO just a little vote on Ando which puts him number 3 on the train. He mentions Macros talking about Ando and mechanics but doesn't mention me talking about them.

Skating by as usual.

Vote HO

Plus what I said earlier, and turned it into that little one liner?

Are you trying to weaken my vote of him?

"Skating by as usual" seeks to imply that he is playing in normal fashion. "Normally" a player is Town as that is the most common role. Even with the full quote you weren't saying he looked heavily invested, it just added to the implied view - no content, one liners. That's generally HO He's got so much invested I tihnk you need to find it Tatts.

I don't think the case can take much weakening as it is hardly there to begin with

[Messremb]

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Only if you've had so little sleep

Otherwise you're the numbers man, and a small mistake like that is not something you'd usually make.

Did you not add me to the vote count though?

I guess it doesn't really matter does it. As long as we know its 2 votes for him.

Coffee became the major component of my bloodstream at about 10pm yesterday

Yeah I moved names around but didn't do numbers because given how twitchy D1 is I'd have had to change numbers a good fifty times per page, figured to do it at the end. Did the 4 as that was blatantly wrong. Then I got distracted putting peoples full names in, did the time and hit post.

[Andorion]

At the moment I have my eye on two prime suspects Nom and HO.

Nom did a quick pile on, then ran off. He is making conciliatory noises now when under pressure.
HO did a driveby, has not shown up again.

What irks me about HO is his casual-jovial style of posting which seems to have made a few people (me included) overlook him. I mean his vote on me almost reads like a joke.

I can't comment on the meta-discussion regarding HO's style of play as I don't know it that well. Regardless of whether it is characteristic of him or not, these particular posts do read as pretty suspicious.

Unfortunately I am going to be out of contact for a few hours and will miss end of day. Thing is I don't really want to retract my vote on Nom just yet.

[Tattersail_]

Messremb, on 27 April 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

HiddenOne, on 26 April 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

DKT style catch up^TM is complete, so back to work - I'm out of time to slack off

Yet he added no content, replied to a few quotes with cheeky one liners, and hurtfully didn't mention me once. Sounds bitchy doesn't it, but if you look, Andorion, Messremb, Tapper, Macros, Dhenrabi, had all mentioned me, quoted me and I'd been voted. He doesn't mention Ando's 2 votes on him, nothing mentioned by HO just a little vote on Ando which puts him number 3 on the train. He mentions Macros talking about Ando and mechanics but doesn't mention me talking about them.

Skating by as usual.

Vote HO

Plus what I said earlier, and turned it into that little one liner?

Are you trying to weaken my vote of him?

"Skating by as usual" seeks to imply that he is playing in normal fashion. "Normally" a player is Town as that is the most common role. Even with the full quote you weren't saying he looked heavily invested, it just added to the implied view - no content, one liners. That's generally HO He's got so much invested I tihnk you need to find it Tatts.

I don't think the case can take much weakening as it is hardly there to begin with

But it's not my case is it? It is Sergei's case, and I'm adding my own two cents to it.

[Tattersail_]

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

Quote

Hey Sierglej, you're naked. You should log out and then back in again with anonymous checked.

Thx & fix'd!

Okay, so I'm off work for today and have a moment before today's Champions League game, so time to post something of substance.

First, a very newbie question. I skimmed the 101 and saw it strongly advised to lynch on day 1:

Quote

In basic games, new players tend to place too much emphasis on certainty of innocence or guilt and consider minimizing the amount of casualties a town priority. This is generally characterized by an unwillingness to vote someone or considering a no-lynch a better option than the lynch of a town player. This is nowhere more pronounced than on day 1, when people are often voted out for the most ridiculous reasons by veterans and rookies are hesitant to vote or even prefer a no-lynch.<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">
The truth of the matter is that right until the end-game, both teams benefit from reducing the amount of players left in the game for a multitude of reasons.

This is EXACTLY how I feel right now :F So can someone elaborate on why townies benefit from reducing the number of players? Is it just the math of with less player you have higher % of hitting scum or I am missing a more complex dynamic here? Because my initial feeling was:

• We lynch on day 1 and have ~12% of killing scum (2 people out of 17 players). I'm saying 12% because with so little data, the lynch isn't much better than random. So we have 88% chance of killing one of our own.
• Night 1 comes and scum kills a townie.
• Day 2 starts with first piece of solid information (who was killed by scum) but we're 88% sure we killed one of our own so have less time before scum prevails.

If we only speculate but don't kill on Day 1, we do still get information from the Night 1's kill, but lose one instead of two townies in the process. But since doing this was advised against in the 101, I imagine there is a bigger benefit from just reducing the number of players: I just didn't figure it out yet. So would be super grateful for a bit of advice/explanation here.

Moving towards the meaty part, aka throwing accusations. There's a lot of meta play going on and the pace is very fast, so I'm struggling a bit, but my thinking so far is as follows. Andorion and Tatts seem the most vocal and it started with Tatts accusing Andorion of being scum because of him touching on mechanics very early. That sounds like grasping at straws very early in the game, but Tatts also puts a big mark on his back with going after someone this openly. That would be a risk of outing himself immediately. So I'm inclined to think he's not scum. I'm also not convinced by the Andorion mentioned mechanics therefore scum thinking, so I'm leaning towards suspecting one of the people who jumped on the lynching Andorion bandwagon, as an easy way to quickly kill off a townie. These people are:
Nom, HiddenOne, Kitsu

I'm not voting yet, because I want to understand better lynching on day 1. Then I'll add my vote, most likely for one of the three mentioned above.

Okay, Champions League time!

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

Quote

Often what happens is that we get close to lynching someone on Day 1, usually for some stupid reason that only makes a little bit of sense, but because we don't end up getting the lynch, even with the kill info (and most killers will often kill someone completely unrelated to the Day 1 controversy for this very reason), more often than not, the kill has nothing to do, either directly or obliquely, with the cases people were pushing Day 1, let alone being a kill that may give us enough information to suss out who the killers are yet. Then we get to Day 2, and if, as is usually the case, nothing new has come up information-wise, we spend the entirety of another day cycle rehashing the exact same cases as during Day 1.<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 11.7px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(24, 24, 24);"><br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 11.7px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(24, 24, 24);">So, by not lynching on Day 1, we've now wasted 2 days arguing about the same cases.

Thanks Blend, that helps a lot!

Andorion v Tatts looks like the point of contention for Day 1 and admittedly the core of my own reasoning from the previous post, so I went back and looked and how it unfolded (this timeline is limited to the Androion-Tattersail situation):

• Andorion starts speculating about mechanics
• Tatts joins the speculation
• In the next post Macros throws accusation at Andorion because of that speculation
• Khell joins and points fingers at Andorion
• Tattersail votes Andorion
• Nom votes Andorion
• Dhenrabi votes Tatts
• Macros votes Tatts
• HiddenOne comes back to Macros' post that started the whole debate and votes Andorion
• JPK votes Andorion
• Gust votes Tatts
• Dhenrabi removes vote against Tatts
• Tatts removes vote against Andorion and votes Blend
• JPK removes vote against Andorion

What looked fishy to me is how Macros only focused on Andorion speculating mechanics and how Tatts pivoted from talking mechanics himself to lynching Andorion. But then he actually backtracked and voted Tatts, so it makes sense. And for the record, Tatts did offer an excuse for his speculation:

Quote

The difference between me speculating on what the extra role may be, (asking Tapper, who has run a lot of games) and Andorion speculating on what town roles there may be is huge

This sounds like a shaky logic to me, but I don't want to jump to a conclusion based on only this with so little Mafia experience I have.


Initially I was most suspicious of team vote Andorion but after a re-read (more like re-skim to be fair) I think that would expose them too much. Throwing accusations at Tatts is more defensible and an opportunity to stir things up at the same time, with fueling the tension. Dhenrabi retracted his vote for Tatts and Macros actually backtracked to this conclusion after going after Andorion, so that leaves me with Gust. This is a looong shot and I might be reading way too much into things, but here it goes:

Vote GustHubb

He voted Gusty, but I see HO as the scummiest in this situation.

[Messremb]

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

But it's not my case is it? It is Sergei's case, and I'm adding my own two cents to it.

Now either I'm missing posts from the thread or you're slipping here Tatts. You agree with Sergeis case on HO. Find the case for me.

[Messremb]

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

He voted Gusty, but I see HO as the scummiest in this situation.

So it is your case after all. Glad we cleared that up.

[Tattersail_]

Messremb, on 27 April 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

He voted Gusty, but I see HO as the scummiest in this situation.

So it is your case after all. Glad we cleared that up.

Or i'm using that as a platform to find HO scummy. Why so defensive of HO all of a sudden?

[Messremb]

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Messremb, on 27 April 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

He voted Gusty, but I see HO as the scummiest in this situation.

So it is your case after all. Glad we cleared that up.

Or i'm using that as a platform to find HO scummy. Why so defensive of HO all of a sudden?

I wanted to understand your case on him. Turns out it is "HO being HO." Can't say that motivates me to vote there.

[Andorion]

I have to go off now which is sad as this is immensely entertaining

Mess is quite defensive of HO all of a sudden which is surprising.

Hey Mess what exactly is HO's usual play style for those of us who are unfamiliar with it?

The other veterans here can hopefully verify.

I am off!

[Tattersail_]

If you're so in touch with the thread, here was where I stated which way I was leaning.

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

Moving towards the meaty part, aka throwing accusations. There's a lot of meta play going on and the pace is very fast, so I'm struggling a bit, but my thinking so far is as follows. Andorion and Tatts seem the most vocal and it started with Tatts accusing Andorion of being scum because of him touching on mechanics very early.

It was him bringing in/speculating on town mechanics that raised my eyebrows fyi.

Quote

That sounds like grasping at straws very early in the game, but Tatts also puts a big mark on his back with going after someone this openly. That would be a risk of outing himself immediately. So I'm inclined to think he's not scum. I'm also not convinced by the Andorion mentioned mechanics therefore scum thinking, so I'm leaning towards suspecting one of the people who jumped on the lynching Andorion bandwagon, as an easy way to quickly kill off a townie.

I assume everyone is guilty until they are proven innocent. Everyone has motivations, I'm not always willing to let go of a subject and move onto the next suspicious person. (I find it hard to let go). Yet day one is always a crap shot, and by harping on, I draw out people's opinions on the matter.

Quote

These people are:
Nom, HiddenOne, Kitsu
'm not voting yet, because I want to understand better lynching on day 1. Then I'll add my vote, most likely for one of the three mentioned above.

Oka Champions League time!

As long as people have an opinion then their vote is valid, yet jumping on and not adding to the discussion is an easy way of skating by. I have not looked at their votes yet but out of the three you mention I'd be willing to give Kitsu a pass. I wouldn't want to scare the new guys into not voting. It sets a bad future impression.

Nom and HiddenOne both have multiple games on this site under their belt, so they know what they are doing. I'll quickly look at their votes..

First up Nom.

Itwas Nom, on 26 April 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Town has barely any profit from those speculation, let scum figure on their own

for now

vote Andorion

This is 20 minutes after my vote, and on page one to boot. It doesn't look like a pressure vote, it does not look like a joke vote, he has a reason which means it is a serious early vote from him.

HiddenOne, on 26 April 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

People thrashing Andorion for talking about town roles? There will be talk of "that's why nobody wants to post anymore"

Vote Andorion

let that be a lesson to you

This seems like a less serious vote but it is vote number 3 on Ando, this pushes him into dangerous territory. Without another option people may pile on just to get the lynch.


Then we have Ando's reaction

Andorion, on 26 April 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

12 hours into the game and the only remarkable thing happening is the lynch train developing on me as I have profaned the sacred mafia alter of "Touch not the game mechanics". Also because people aren't finding anything else voteworthy yet.

Most interesting thing to me? Tatts lightning swift volte face regarding same issue when I was challenged.

Hmmm. Couple that with a divergence from his usual style of play and its quite quite suspicious.

This is quite a calm response, and he does not seem to be panicky one bit. Reading after the Kitsu vote he remains calm as well. This makes me lean Ando towards the town side of the fence.

So looking at it from fresh eyes this morning I'd be more willing to vote HO.

Going to read up a little further.

I added my bit, but I should go further..

After Siergeij posts his suspicion list, what does HO do?

HiddenOne, on 26 April 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

So everybody seems to be cooling off from Andorion, myself included. I think I was just poking around a little.

Tatts has gotten a lot of attention, so if he's scum...I would have to go along with whoever said he might be a symp, if anything at all

Why have I seen a couple mentions of Nom's name go around?

Retreats.

Then..

You Messremb.

Quote

This is what gives me pause about voting HO:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Skating by as usual.

Vote HO

The reason you are hesitant to vote HO is because of me and my reaction/vote?

You have a vote on Khell? Have you expressed an interest in lynching anyone else? HO only has 2 votes, compare that to Nom who has more, why do you feel the need to comment on HO and not Nom?

[Messremb]

Andorion, on 27 April 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Hey Mess what exactly is HO's usual play style for those of us who are unfamiliar with it?

The other veterans here can hopefully verify.

I am off!

Low posting, one liners, minimal interaction with others and next to no back and forth dialogue

(Sorry HO!)

[Tattersail_]

Did you not want to interact with Bubba. Is his vote a bad one?

Bubba, on 26 April 2016 - 11:18 PM, said:

after much nashing of teeth HO stands out most to me, Tatts ...well fuck him for the moment, we will see how He plays out. Having watched him change style on a whim I will wait and gage him over time.

vote HO


his play is much to deliberate.

[Tattersail_]

I just find it funny/suspicious equally that;

Votes:
4 votes Itwas Nom: Khellendros, Andorion, Blend, Coltaine93
3 votes Andorion: Itwas Nom, HiddenOne, ADemonLlama
2 votes Tattersail: Macros, Gust Hubb
2 vote HiddenOne: Bubba, Tattersail
1 vote Gusty: Sergiej
1 vote Macros: Just Plain Kitsu

Out of all the people with votes on them, the only one you comment on is HO. "This is what gives me pause", well are you implying that you were thinking of voting for him out of all the choices, but because I am, you now have doubts?

[Messremb]

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

The reason you are hesitant to vote HO is because of me and my reaction/vote?

You have a vote on Khell? Have you expressed an interest in lynching anyone else? HO only has 2 votes, compare that to Nom who has more, why do you feel the need to comment on HO and not Nom?

I don't have a vote on Khell as you'll have realised when putting together the vote update

I felt like commenting on your HO vote because I knew for sure that you would be around to respond and available to talk to.

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Did you not want to interact with Bubba. Is his vote a bad one?

Bubba, on 26 April 2016 - 11:18 PM, said:

after much nashing of teeth HO stands out most to me, Tatts ...well fuck him for the moment, we will see how He plays out. Having watched him change style on a whim I will wait and gage him over time.

vote HO


his play is much to deliberate.

Bubba isn't around consistently. Bubba also generally plays in a single style. You however play many ways. Think of it as a chance to kill multiple birds with one stone; now I have a bit of a better read on your play this game too. Also, too deliberate implies caution and consideration behind posts with a motive behind it, a reason. HO posting pretty normally, your stated position, doesn't.

[Messremb]

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

I just find it funny/suspicious equally that;

Votes:
4 votes Itwas Nom: Khellendros, Andorion, Blend, Coltaine93
3 votes Andorion: Itwas Nom, HiddenOne, ADemonLlama
2 votes Tattersail: Macros, Gust Hubb
2 vote HiddenOne: Bubba, Tattersail
1 vote Gusty: Sergiej
1 vote Macros: Just Plain Kitsu

Out of all the people with votes on them, the only one you comment on is HO. "This is what gives me pause", well are you implying that you were thinking of voting for him out of all the choices, but because I am, you now have doubts?

Khell - is around but hasn't posted as recently as you
Itwas Nom - isn't around ATM
Macros - is probably taking a dump on a construction site somewhere exotic

[Messremb]

Missed this bit:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

Out of all the people with votes on them, the only one you comment on is HO. "This is what gives me pause", well are you implying that you were thinking of voting for him out of all the choices, but because I am, you now have doubts?

I can see the logic behind all the cases with more votes but I was struggling with yours. I'm happy to vote any way I think makes sense. Your reason didn't.

[Messremb]

Messremb, on 27 April 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

I just find it funny/suspicious equally that;

Votes:
4 votes Itwas Nom: Khellendros, Andorion, Blend, Coltaine93
3 votes Andorion: Itwas Nom, HiddenOne, ADemonLlama
2 votes Tattersail: Macros, Gust Hubb
2 vote HiddenOne: Bubba, Tattersail
1 vote Gusty: Sergiej
1 vote Macros: Just Plain Kitsu

Out of all the people with votes on them, the only one you comment on is HO. "This is what gives me pause", well are you implying that you were thinking of voting for him out of all the choices, but because I am, you now have doubts?

Khell - is around but hasn't posted as recently as you
Itwas Nom - isn't around ATM
Macros - is probably taking a dump on a construction site somewhere exotic

For completeness:
Bubba - See earlier post
Andorian - Out now, had actually totally missed he was around
Blend - Asleep
Coltaine93 - Not sure timezone
HO - Asleep
ADL - Asleep
Gust - Asleep

[Tattersail_]

Messremb, on 27 April 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

Messremb, on 27 April 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

I just find it funny/suspicious equally that;

Votes:
4 votes Itwas Nom: Khellendros, Andorion, Blend, Coltaine93
3 votes Andorion: Itwas Nom, HiddenOne, ADemonLlama
2 votes Tattersail: Macros, Gust Hubb
2 vote HiddenOne: Bubba, Tattersail
1 vote Gusty: Sergiej
1 vote Macros: Just Plain Kitsu

Out of all the people with votes on them, the only one you comment on is HO. "This is what gives me pause", well are you implying that you were thinking of voting for him out of all the choices, but because I am, you now have doubts?

Khell - is around but hasn't posted as recently as you
Itwas Nom - isn't around ATM
Macros - is probably taking a dump on a construction site somewhere exotic

For completeness:
Bubba - See earlier post
Andorian - Out now, had actually totally missed he was around
Blend - Asleep
Coltaine93 - Not sure timezone
HO - Asleep
ADL - Asleep
Gust - Asleep

Glad you brought this up, so are you happy with all the votes by all these people? All these votes makes sense?


You still think I am voting HO because of meta reasons which is hilarious to me. I agree with Bubba, I agree with Siergeij (even though he voted Gusty) so my reasons make sense to me.


Why don't you vote someone for your own reason then? Who do you find scummy?