[WinterPhoenix]

I finished HoC a number of days ago now (in fact I am about a quarter of the way through MT now) but I have some questions about Raraku's Memories I have been chewing on, specifically related to L'oric's visit to said place. My main question essentially boils down to this, is L'oric's being in that place basically time travel? By which I mean to say (and I realise that this question is entirely hypothetical in nature) if L'oric and/or Osric chose to fight the Deragoth and killed one there and then (I'm assuming Osric is capable, if Karsa Orlong is) would said being have ceased to exist in the future also? It's clear that wanderers within the memories are capable of having an effect on the world around them, so killing any denizen of said memories boils down to having the skill to actually do so - thus it logically follows that said wanderer exists in that time in some manifest way. I understand warrens, at least in so far as warrens are understandable at my current place in the series - the idea of living memories associated with geographical locations, however, is singularly baffling.

One other question I have is whether we ever find out for certain that it was Paran's releasing of the Hounds of Shadow within Drangnipur that made possible the rebirth of the two Deragoth. It's certainly seems to me an unlikely coincidence that he frees two hounds, and two new Hounds of Darkness are born with the shattered remnants of Kurald Emurlahn. If it is the case, I will be interested to learn of the effects, if any the deaths of the Deragoth have on the bestial blood racing through Paran's veins.

[Kellanved's shadow]

The way that I see it is that no killing anything within the Warren of Raraku's memories won't change the past at all. Anything that was inside that dream world was dead already because well there memories. Think of them as ghosts like the ghosts that attacked the Dog Slayers. They're already dead. Another thing is that time between the Warrens doesn't always run parallel with each other. Remember in GoTM Tok the younger got thrown into a Warren and came out of it a like two months latter at Morn in MOI.

This post has been edited by Kellanved's shadow: 01 January 2016 - 10:13 AM

[WinterPhoenix]

I would agree with your description of matters, and in fact that was basically what I believed, before I gave it some more thought once I was finished with the book - perhaps too much thought as will be made self-evident by this reply.

When L'oric asks which realm they are in Osric specifically tells him that the world they are in is not a warren but rather Raraku's memories, indelibly stained upon the geography of Raraku by some disastrous event - as such we are provided concrete narrative evidence that world L'oric finds himself in is not in fact a warren. Certainly it is true that the warrens do not always run parallel to each other, and thusly I have made my peace with the havoc this can play on timelines and possibilities going forward, however, with a specific narrative claim that Raraku's memories are not a warren I find my self unable to accept explanations that might otherwise make sense - that is to say my issues would be somewhat abated if we could simply treat the realm as a warren or fragment of one.

The idea that the realm is in fact one populated entirely by memories of things long dead is a logical belief to hold - and one that I held myself - however, upon greater thought I can't help but see the contradictions in this, that is too say for this to be true the inability to cause effect must swing both ways, i.e visitors like L'oric and his father cannot harm the Deragoth, and the Deragoth cannot harm them. However, it is abundantly clear that, that is not the case, L'oric believes himself dead before his fathers timely intervention, convinced of the Deragoth's capability to kill him - could a man be killed by dead memories? Personally I am unconvinced, certainly it seems to me as though L'oric is literally and physically located in the same time as the beasts, thus his mortal endangerment; if, as we are told by Osric this is not in fact a warren and thus no warren-born sorcery is at play, then a physical act of time travel is the only explanation. If he had simply found himself in a memory then the players of said memory would not be able to affect him in any way, nor he them. Thus my question regains its relevancy if they could kill him, surely he (or Osric) could kill them?

The entire matter reaches new levels of complexity when you ruminate on the possibilities of memory world denizens leaving that realm to enter the present day. L'oric is obviously a visitor and thus he is able to get back to his own time, Greyfrog, however presents a different challenge to the ever faithful reader. We must assume that Greyfrog himself is a visitor who became stuck and, unable to leave of his own volition, requires L'oric's help in said endeavour. The assumption is made not because there is a satisfactory explanation to that end, but because if we don't assume that then it is a necessary truth that a true denizen of the memory world has actually made it to the present time (i.e. time travel) - and if Greyfrog could do it, then so could the Deragoth. Hence, we the reader assume that Greyfrog is merely a visitor who finds himself trapped, and the Deragoth as true denizens are chained to the realm as memories with corporeal form - this is merely supposition, however, never once confirmed by the narrative, though of course heavily implied.

I want to simply believe that it is some warren-borne sorcery infused with memories of a past age, but that feels to me as though I would be using the warrens as a Deus ex Machina to explain the otherwise inexplicable (or merely terribly confusing), and it flies right in the face of explicit narrative material - i.e Osric's all important assertion that the realm they find themselves in is not a warren.

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 01 January 2016 - 12:19 PM

[Gorefest]

WinterPhoenix, on 01 January 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

I finished HoC a number of days ago now (in fact I am about a quarter of the way through MT now) but I have some questions about Raraku's Memories I have been chewing on, specifically related to L'oric's visit to said place. My main question essentially boils down to this, is L'oric's being in that place basically time travel?

Basically, yes, I think.

Quote

By which I mean to say (and I realise that this question is entirely hypothetical in nature) if L'oric and/or Osric chose to fight the Deragoth and killed one there and then (I'm assuming Osric is capable, if Karsa Orlong is) would said being have ceased to exist in the future also?

Probably, yeah. However, don't forget that in the time that L'oric found himself in, there were likely quite a lot of Deragoth around, at least way more than the seven that we learn of in the 'present' time line. So killing one probably would not have a massive effect.

Quote

It's clear that wanderers within the memories are capable of having an effect on the world around them, so killing any denizen of said memories boils down to having the skill to actually do so - thus it logically follows that said wanderer exists in that time in some manifest way. I understand warrens, at least in so far as warrens are understandable at my current place in the series - the idea of living memories associated with geographical locations, however, is singularly baffling.

It's a bit of a mix of the two, I think, but a lot of that is RAFO.

Quote

One other question I have is whether we ever find out for certain that it was Paran's releasing of the Hounds of Shadow within Drangnipur that made possible the rebirth of the two Deragoth. It's certainly seems to me an unlikely coincidence that he frees two hounds, and two new Hounds of Darkness are born with the shattered remnants of Kurald Emurlahn. If it is the case, I will be interested to learn of the effects, if any the deaths of the Deragoth have on the bestial blood racing through Paran's veins.

RAFO.

[worry]

WinterPhoenix, on 01 January 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

if, as we are told by Osric this is not in fact a warren and thus no warren-born sorcery is at play, then a physical act of time travel is the only explanation.

While I love that you're thinking so much about this (it is a scene that hasn't been fully unpacked), I don't really think this is a valid conclusion, and I think it's where you're being hung up. The one thing simply doesn't automatically mean the other.

[WinterPhoenix]

worry, on 01 January 2016 - 09:13 PM, said:

WinterPhoenix, on 01 January 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

if, as we are told by Osric this is not in fact a warren and thus no warren-born sorcery is at play, then a physical act of time travel is the only explanation.

While I love that you're thinking so much about this (it is a scene that hasn't been fully unpacked), I don't really think this is a valid conclusion, and I think it's where you're being hung up. The one thing simply doesn't automatically mean the other.

You are probably right, I have been known on many occasions to think rather deeply about certain subjects, and in doing so completely miss aspects that might have helped my conclusions. I suppose in this instance my belief is that for a memory to be corporeal - i.e capable of physically interacting with any element alien to the memory itself - there would have to be some sort of sorcery at play. Thus far in my reading I have come to look at sorcery as the completely dependent child of warrens - I might be mistaken, but I believe it is in MOI when the death of warrens is described as the death of all sorcery, I forget by whom - so the lack of a warren leads me away from sorcery.

You are 100% correct that the lack of one does not necessarily mean the other (time travel), but you are also correct it is definitely where I am being hung up, I shall have to continue to give it some thought.

One more thing about something Gorefest says below, in reading HoC I was never given the impression that there were ever, or would ever be more than seven of the Deragoth, your statement that there were likely a lot more in the past, is that based on material from later books?

[Gorefest]

It is an assumption you can draw from L'oric's visit to Raraku's memories. The Deragoth seem to be pretty well established. At least that is how I read it. Also, the magic system still has a lot of RAFO to it.

[WinterPhoenix]

Hmm perhaps you are right, Osric does suggest that the Deragoth where responsible for the lack of K'Chain Che'Malle on the Seven Cities sub-continent and playing a role in the early evolution of pre-humans, both of these endeavours would seem to require more than 7 of the creatures - unless of course they were vastly more powerful in the past, after all if a mere 7 could drive back multiple floating K'Chain cities then I doubt Karsa would have been able to kill even one.

As for the ins and outs of magic as a system within the series, I am sure I will still have questions even when I have finished the novels, certainly I'm sure my understanding will evolve as I read on anyhow.

[D'rek]

WinterPhoenix, on 01 January 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

The entire matter reaches new levels of complexity when you ruminate on the possibilities of memory world denizens leaving that realm to enter the present day. L'oric is obviously a visitor and thus he is able to get back to his own time, Greyfrog, however presents a different challenge to the ever faithful reader. We must assume that Greyfrog himself is a visitor who became stuck and, unable to leave of his own volition, requires L'oric's help in said endeavour. The assumption is made not because there is a satisfactory explanation to that end, but because if we don't assume that then it is a necessary truth that a true denizen of the memory world has actually made it to the present time (i.e. time travel) - and if Greyfrog could do it, then so could the Deragoth. Hence, we the reader assume that Greyfrog is merely a visitor who finds himself trapped, and the Deragoth as true denizens are chained to the realm as memories with corporeal form - this is merely supposition, however, never once confirmed by the narrative, though of course heavily implied.

Greyfrog is from another realm. When L'oric asks him how he got into this Raraku Memories Pocket Warren, Greyfrog wryly says he took "one hop too many" and fell out of his own realm (probably Aral Gamelon) somehow and wound up on the edges of this memory warren. So Greyfrog's situation is much the same as L'oric's and Osric's.

[WinterPhoenix]

D, on 02 January 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

WinterPhoenix, on 01 January 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

The entire matter reaches new levels of complexity when you ruminate on the possibilities of memory world denizens leaving that realm to enter the present day. L'oric is obviously a visitor and thus he is able to get back to his own time, Greyfrog, however presents a different challenge to the ever faithful reader. We must assume that Greyfrog himself is a visitor who became stuck and, unable to leave of his own volition, requires L'oric's help in said endeavour. The assumption is made not because there is a satisfactory explanation to that end, but because if we don't assume that then it is a necessary truth that a true denizen of the memory world has actually made it to the present time (i.e. time travel) - and if Greyfrog could do it, then so could the Deragoth. Hence, we the reader assume that Greyfrog is merely a visitor who finds himself trapped, and the Deragoth as true denizens are chained to the realm as memories with corporeal form - this is merely supposition, however, never once confirmed by the narrative, though of course heavily implied.

Greyfrog is from another realm. When L'oric asks him how he got into this Raraku Memories Pocket Warren, Greyfrog wryly says he took "one hop too many" and fell out of his own realm (probably Aral Gamelon) somehow and wound up on the edges of this memory warren. So Greyfrog's situation is much the same as L'oric's and Osric's.

Yes you are right, it's been a couple of weeks since I finished the book now, I had forgotten that Greyfrog does actually make it clear that he is not from there, thanks for pointing that out.

[Abyss]

WinterPhoenix, on 02 January 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

As for the ins and outs of magic as a system within the series, I am sure I will still have questions even when I have finished the novels, certainly I'm sure my understanding will evolve as I read on anyhow.

So much this.And keep in mind as you've seen so far, there are multiple 'systems'.

[Kanese S's]

A thing to keep in mind is that warren magic isn't the only kind of magic.