[Soletaken Toblakai]

FoD is one novel that is chock-full of drastic personality changes,Sukul Ankhadu seems like she was a decent Tiste, she turned into a raging loon,even Rake appeared to be a bit more impatient and quite direct in his approaches compared to how subtle and calculating he became, but I think the most drastic transformation belongs to the homie Scabby, I mean when Urasander's rogue legions attacked the Deniers and Andarist's betrothed he appeared completely appalled and disgusted by all that, but then the sh*t dude pulled in Midnight Tides is straight up opposite side of the spectrum, was he behind all those killings all along? Because if he was then he is probably one of the most evil geniuses I've ever come across

[Andorion]

FoD sees the beginning of the the most traumatic events in Tiste history - the fracturing of their race into Andii, Liosan and Edur. As we see this happens through violent civil war and brutal atrocities. Its quite natural that the violence changed people

[Soletaken Toblakai]

Andorion, on 23 December 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

FoD sees the beginning of the the most traumatic events in Tiste history - the fracturing of their race into Andii, Liosan and Edur. As we see this happens through violent civil war and brutal atrocities. Its quite natural that the violence changed people

True, except the triplets of course, but if that is indeed the case, then Scara Bandaris' antics in MT kind of show that he did not change at all, and if that is indeed so, then he must've been playing them all, perhaps dude was one of the people who had been hoping for civil war, pulling strings behind the veil while feigning innocence and righteousness?

[Andorion]

Soletaken Toblakai, on 23 December 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Andorion, on 23 December 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

FoD sees the beginning of the the most traumatic events in Tiste history - the fracturing of their race into Andii, Liosan and Edur. As we see this happens through violent civil war and brutal atrocities. Its quite natural that the violence changed people

True, except the triplets of course, but if that is indeed the case, then Scara Bandaris' antics in MT kind of show that he did not change at all, and if that is indeed so, then he must've been playing them all, perhaps dude was one of the people who had been hoping for civil war, pulling strings behind the veil while feigning innocence and righteousness?

Or he was a nice chap to begin with, but the sides that were chosen in the civil war ultimately led to his betrayal of Silchas?

[nacht]

Obviously SE is aware of the inconsistencies he is presenting, so there must be a surprise waiting for us.

[Soletaken Toblakai]

That's all well and good, and I'm inclined to believe it if not for one thing, Scabby was thinking to himself confessing to the slaughter of house Enesdia all those centuries ago, it really is confounding to say the least, and that's in the world of Malazan where confusion is the order of the day, is it possible then, that this could be a continuity error by SE?

[Ribald]

I am not sure that I see it as a contradiction or inconsistent.

Scara in FoD seems decent. He is a soldier. Then the civil war breaks out. Atrocities happen.

And we don't yet know what the ramifications of this will be.

We don't know yet what psychological damage the war will have on the characters.
We don't know what effects becoming soletaken will have on him and other characters.
We don't yet know what incidents occur that may or may not force him to act a certain way.
We also don't know what effect the warrens and magic will have on certain characters.

And right now we don't even know how the Tiste get from Kharkanas to the world of the Malazan empire and what that entails.

So right now there is a lot up in the air.

What we do know is that our own history is littered with decent men who were soldiers, brothers, fathers, friends, and then become 'broken' or drastically changed by war. War and conflict turned them into monsters, and that was without the interference of Dragons, Chaos, and newly awakened magic.

We also know that psychological damage can lead to people re-imagining or re-interpreting events from their past in a different light, which to them seems perfectly true and accurate, while others there would disagree. Ask three different people what happened at a party they all attended and you will get three different accounts, with no guarantee that any are 'the truth'. Reality is frighteningly subjective at times.


But, perhaps more importantly, all the characters in the series are unreliable narrators who may lie to themselves or others.

FoD itself is explicitly narrated by an unreliable narrator, Gallan, who is ostensibly telling a version of the events to Fisher. So we know that Gallan may be lying, dramatising, exaggerating or altering the 'facts' to suit his interpretation of the events, turn them into a better story, or to tell Fisher something he thinks Fisher wants to hear. And given that this 'telling' of the story is long, long after the events, there is every chance that Gallan is mis-remembering key details.
But we flat out know that he wasn't there for a lot of the events and conversations, so we know that he is making at least some of it up. Maybe based on accounts he heard from other people. Maybe from actual witnesses. And maybe he is just making them up to fit the narrative he has constructed about the events.

We have no idea what political or personal bias Gallan may have as he is a fairly mysterious character and his background and personality are not really discussed or outlined in any detail.

The MBotF series itself also spans hundreds of thousands of years. Who really knows how that effects someone's memory or events, even really important ones? So when we encounter those characters again there are some many events, tragedies, trials and tribulations that we are unaware of, and that may have changed them. Some might change radically, some might change only a little. Some may have multiple changes over time given the length of their lives and the events that happen.

So there is a huge amount of ambiguity about what we are 'told' in the series.

From the perspective of the MBotF the events of Forge are the ancient past. They have been mythologised. Told and re-told thousands of times. Hundreds of variations. And if someone tells you a story often enough, even if you were there, it will have some effect. Some details will begin to alter, will begin to change, and you might start to remember the facts differently.

So it will be interesting to see how the trilogy pans out.

[Puck]

^What Ribald said.

There's also that Scabby is going to likely be blamed for what happened to Enesdia in FoD, whether he was responsible or even knew of that or not. Because it were his soldiers who participated many will assume he was party to it. Listen to an accusation often enough, and you're likely to start believing at least some of it. Add to it some time passing, a civil war, the way draconic blood can change people (just think of Silchas between FoD and the MBotF) and some serious pragmatisim (after all, in MT it seems that Scabby has become responsible for the fate of his Tiste Edur followers, so it's perfectly feasible that he could've come to put the survival of his followers before the survival of others). He may have started out a decent, honourable commander, but getting blamed for it all may very well have made him go 'Fuck it, if nobody believes me anyway, I might as well use that as a weapon', and then started to believe it over time himself.

I wouldn't call Scabby evil, but pragmatic to the extreme. We see in FoD that he denies the war and leaves for his hold so he can sit it out there. I think we can safely assume that the war comes to him, which may incite him to do what he can to get out of it again, and see those who throw their lot in with him safe, which may very well turn out into doing despicable things for the sake of peace/neutrality. When you're in the middle of it, it may even seem as something necessary. Also, it's implied somewhat that Silchas had been aware of the looming betrayal and let it happen, implying that he wasn't exactly a saint either (sacrificing his own followers) and possibly able to understand Scabby's motivation. They'd been, after all, friends.

This post has been edited by Puck Puckster: 23 December 2015 - 02:52 PM

[Kanese S's]

Soletaken Toblakai, on 22 December 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

FoD is one novel that is chock-full of drastic personality changes,Sukul Ankhadu seems like she was a decent Tiste, she turned into a raging loon,even Rake appeared to be a bit more impatient and quite direct in his approaches compared to how subtle and calculating he became, but I think the most drastic transformation belongs to the homie Scabby, I mean when Urasander's rogue legions attacked the Deniers and Andarist's betrothed he appeared completely appalled and disgusted by all that, but then the sh*t dude pulled in Midnight Tides is straight up opposite side of the spectrum, was he behind all those killings all along? Because if he was then he is probably one of the most evil geniuses I've ever come across

I don't know what Scabandari's deal is... but yeah, Sukul Ankhadu in FoD is such a nice Tiste... really affected my reread of her parts in the main series, because the whole time I was reading her parts there, I had in my mind what she apparently used to be like, and so the entire time my brain kept going "Sukul, what happened to you? How did you become like this?"

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Soletaken Toblakai, on 23 December 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

That's all well and good, and I'm inclined to believe it if not for one thing, Scabby was thinking to himself confessing to the slaughter of house Enesdia all those centuries ago, it really is confounding to say the least, and that's in the world of Malazan where confusion is the order of the day, is it possible then, that this could be a continuity error by SE?

Here's the quote from Midnight Tides (Scabandari's internal monologue): "Andarist, who long ago surrendered his power in answer to a grief that could never heal. All unknowing that the hand that delivered that grief was mine..."
Google Books preview: http://tinyurl.com/jr7766d


Wow. I'd completely forgotten about this. In Forge of Darkness Kadaspala does tell Andarist that Scara Bandaris was responsible (because he'd seen his troops); and Scara Bandaris says he expects to be blamed for it and that he's going to wait for Silchas to come and seek vengeance against him, and plans to offer his neck to the sword. (A nice symmetry with Silchas later allowing Scabandari to betray him.)

While the quote's a bit ambiguous, the implication is that Andarist never found out that Scabandari was truly responsible. They made so many incompetent attempts to frame other people that by ineptly framing himself while appearing honorable and outraged even to his own conspiring soldiers, Scara Bandaris renders himself beyond suspicion in a move worthy of Shadowthrone.

(Perhaps his deception was so good that Blind Gallan and (most of) the other Tiste never figured it out, and if FoD is all narrated by Gallan, we may never learn the truth... but hopefully we will. Maybe Gallan is purposefully leaving out information to make the betrayal as surprising to most readers, who are unlikely to remember that tiny aside from MT, as it would be to the Tiste.) Scara Bandaris does become Father Shadow after all....

Alternately, perhaps after becoming Father Shadow he convinces himself it was his master plan all along. Like Nietzsche writes: "To turn every Thus it was into a Thus I willed it." Memory research has demonstrated that peoples' memories tend to change significantly over time, even for emotionally significant events they can vividly recall. It's comparatively easy to create false memories through confabulation, especially when it's self-serving. Perhaps it wasn't just his draconic blood but Shadow that changed him.

Or maybe he and Kagamandra Tulas (another incredibly honorable, loyal man in FoD) just become Edur because they're both noble and Legion (Night and Light combine to breed Shadow). More likely it's a bit of both.


But the "betrayal" of Silchas is attributed to reasoning that their "blood" makes prolonged peace impossible: iirc it's basically explained several times that Eleint (including Soletaken) can't be around each other for very long without their draconic blood causing them to fight with each other (or merge into Tiam reborn if there are enough of them). That's what Scabandari means in MT when he tells Silchas, "It is the way of brothers, alas[...] One must rule. Two cannot. You know the truth of that. Big as this world is, [...] sooner or later there would be war [...] the truth of our blood will tell." However this seems to be contradicted by the Tiste Andii having several Soletaken Eleint near each other for a long time (unless it's that Anomander is the dominant one? or he's often not around?)... so perhaps by "blood" he also means that children of Night and Children of Shadow can't be around each other for too long without conflict... or maybe it makes the draconic blood's rage worse.
Google books preview: http://tinyurl.com/hqhuayg

That also explains Silchas's willingness to chill out in the Azath House for so long.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 07 February 2016 - 09:45 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Here's Silchas Ruin talking about how the Blood of the Eleint causes betrayal: "To the Blood of the Eleint, Udinaas, any notion of community is anathema. Or of alliance. [...]'Ah, I see. Which was why Quick Ben managed to defeat Sukul Ankhadu, Sheltatha Lore and Menandore.' Silchas Ruin nodded. 'Each intended to betray the others. It is the flaw in the blood. More often than not, a fatal one.' He paused, and then said, 'So it proved with me and my brother Anomander. Once the Draconic blood took hold of us, we were driven apart. Andarist stood between us, reaching with both hands, seeking to hold us close, but our newfound arrogance surpassed him. We ceased to be brothers." DoD,
Google Books preview: http://tinyurl.com/j6v5hu9

That's the kind of reasoning Scabandari is almost certainly referring to as he betrays Silchas. Though I still wonder how to reconcile this with Anomander's MBotF group of Tiste Andii Soletaken, who seem to get along without having their minds dominated (wiped out and fully controlled) by Anomander.

Azath Vitr (D, on 07 February 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Soletaken Toblakai, on 23 December 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

That's all well and good, and I'm inclined to believe it if not for one thing, Scabby was thinking to himself confessing to the slaughter of house Enesdia all those centuries ago, it really is confounding to say the least, and that's in the world of Malazan where confusion is the order of the day, is it possible then, that this could be a continuity error by SE?

Here's the quote from Midnight Tides (Scabandari's internal monologue): "Andarist, who long ago surrendered his power in answer to a grief that could never heal. All unknowing that the hand that delivered that grief was mine..."
Google Books preview: http://tinyurl.com/jr7766d


Wow. I'd completely forgotten about this. In Forge of Darkness Kadaspala does tell Andarist that Scara Bandaris was responsible (because he'd seen his troops); and Scara Bandaris says he expects to be blamed for it and that he's going to wait for Silchas to come and seek vengeance against him, and plans to offer his neck to the sword. (A nice symmetry with Silchas later allowing Scabandari to betray him.)

While the quote's a bit ambiguous, the implication is that Andarist never found out that Scabandari was truly responsible. They made so many incompetent attempts to frame other people that by ineptly framing himself while appearing honorable and outraged even to his own conspiring soldiers, Scara Bandaris renders himself beyond suspicion in a move worthy of Shadowthrone.

(Perhaps his deception was so good that Blind Gallan and (most of) the other Tiste never figured it out, and if FoD is all narrated by Gallan, we may never learn the truth... but hopefully we will. Maybe Gallan is purposefully leaving out information to make the betrayal as surprising to most readers, who are unlikely to remember that tiny aside from MT, as it would be to the Tiste.) Scara Bandaris does become Father Shadow after all....

Alternately, perhaps after becoming Father Shadow he convinces himself it was his master plan all along. Like Nietzsche writes: "To turn every Thus it was into a Thus I willed it." Memory research has demonstrated that peoples' memories tend to change significantly over time, even for emotionally significant events they can vividly recall. It's comparatively easy to create false memories through confabulation, especially when it's self-serving. Perhaps it wasn't just his draconic blood but Shadow that changed him.

Or maybe he and Kagamandra Tulas (another incredibly honorable, loyal man in FoD) just become Edur because they're both noble and Legion (Night and Light combine to breed Shadow). More likely it's a bit of both.


But the "betrayal" of Silchas is attributed to reasoning that their "blood" makes prolonged peace impossible: iirc it's basically explained several times that Eleint (including Soletaken) can't be around each other for very long without their draconic blood causing them to fight with each other (or merge into Tiam reborn if there are enough of them). That's what Scabandari means in MT when he tells Silchas, "It is the way of brothers, alas[...] One must rule. Two cannot. You know the truth of that. Big as this world is, [...] sooner or later there would be war [...] the truth of our blood will tell." However this seems to be contradicted by the Tiste Andii having several Soletaken Eleint near each other for a long time (unless it's that Anomander is the dominant one? or he's often not around?)... so perhaps by "blood" he also means that children of Night and Children of Shadow can't be around each other for too long without conflict... or maybe it makes the draconic blood's rage worse.
Google books preview: http://tinyurl.com/hqhuayg

That also explains Silchas's willingness to chill out in the Azath House for so long.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 07 February 2016 - 10:44 PM

[BellaGrace]

Soletaken Toblakai, on 22 December 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

FoD is one novel that is chock-full of drastic personality changes,Sukul Ankhadu seems like she was a decent Tiste, she turned into a raging loon,even Rake appeared to be a bit more impatient and quite direct in his approaches compared to how subtle and calculating he became, but I think the most drastic transformation belongs to the homie Scabby, I mean when Urasander's rogue legions attacked the Deniers and Andarist's betrothed he appeared completely appalled and disgusted by all that, but then the sh*t dude pulled in Midnight Tides is straight up opposite side of the spectrum, was he behind all those killings all along? Because if he was then he is probably one of the most evil geniuses I've ever come across

The most drastic change that surprised me was in the other direction - from what I perceived to be as a bad person in MBotF starting out way worse than I ever imagined in FoD

Spite and Envy were always bitches, but at times they seemed like they were trying to some decent things. We know Envy helped kill her father, but I always assumed there was a valid reason, since Rake was involved. We also know Envy slept with both Fisher and Andomander - causing me to think, "well she must not be THAT bad"... Other than trying to kill each other they seemed like any other morally ambiguous god.

but then, holy fuck... we find out they are homicidal psychopaths that stuff one of their sisters in an oven and murders most of the household

[Nevyn]

BellaGrace, on 08 February 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

Soletaken Toblakai, on 22 December 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

FoD is one novel that is chock-full of drastic personality changes,Sukul Ankhadu seems like she was a decent Tiste, she turned into a raging loon,even Rake appeared to be a bit more impatient and quite direct in his approaches compared to how subtle and calculating he became, but I think the most drastic transformation belongs to the homie Scabby, I mean when Urasander's rogue legions attacked the Deniers and Andarist's betrothed he appeared completely appalled and disgusted by all that, but then the sh*t dude pulled in Midnight Tides is straight up opposite side of the spectrum, was he behind all those killings all along? Because if he was then he is probably one of the most evil geniuses I've ever come across

The most drastic change that surprised me was in the other direction - from what I perceived to be as a bad person in MBotF starting out way worse than I ever imagined in FoD

Spite and Envy were always bitches, but at times they seemed like they were trying to some decent things. We know Envy helped kill her father, but I always assumed there was a valid reason, since Rake was involved. We also know Envy slept with both Fisher and Andomander - causing me to think, "well she must not be THAT bad"... Other than trying to kill each other they seemed like any other morally ambiguous god.

but then, holy fuck... we find out they are homicidal psychopaths that stuff one of their sisters in an oven and murders most of the household

I think the argument can be made that they are both psychopaths throughout MBotF, too, just more experienced ones.

Envy in particular even in MOI seems to be and have always been very disconnected from the consequences and damage of her actions. Self involved, wants her way, and rather surprised when that messes things up for others.

So you could argue that the murder spree in FoD is really the same self-involved personality, but at a more experimental stage of discovering what she can do and what the consequences are.

[BellaGrace]

I agree with your points above Nev - but one thing that doesn't sit right with me is how Anomander would ever take Envy for a lover and/or be in love with her - AND stay with her long enough to have several children. The Anomander/Envy hookup happens before Draconus dies so it has to happen in the trilogy - meaning she's an inexperienced psychopath and how could Rake not notice that?

She's also a ridiculously younger than Rake -but the book makes it sound like at some point Draconus' children have the ability to go from a child to a fully formed adult.

This post has been edited by BellaGrace: 08 February 2016 - 09:06 PM

[worry]

Who said Draconus dies in this trilogy?

[BellaGrace]

Dumbledude, on 09 February 2016 - 01:09 AM, said:

Who said Draconus dies in this trilogy?

an excellent point...although I kind of hope he does - I would love to know the events surrounding that.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Dumbledude, on 09 February 2016 - 01:09 AM, said:

Who said Draconus dies in this trilogy?

Draconus has to be around to curse Kallor before getting trapped in Dragnipur. And that's after the fall of the crippled god, the establishment of blood sacrifice to the Elder Gods among humans... even if the High King is Kallor and the timeline is radically different from MBotF, that would be a lot to pack into the next two books. Though they could conceivably jump forward over intermediary events, even many millenia into the future.

But I do hope it gets written, and sooner rather than later (without sacrificing quality).

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 09 February 2016 - 03:41 PM

[worry]

I hope they DO sacrifice quality. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

[Kanese S's]

BellaGrace, on 08 February 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

Soletaken Toblakai, on 22 December 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

FoD is one novel that is chock-full of drastic personality changes,Sukul Ankhadu seems like she was a decent Tiste, she turned into a raging loon,even Rake appeared to be a bit more impatient and quite direct in his approaches compared to how subtle and calculating he became, but I think the most drastic transformation belongs to the homie Scabby, I mean when Urasander's rogue legions attacked the Deniers and Andarist's betrothed he appeared completely appalled and disgusted by all that, but then the sh*t dude pulled in Midnight Tides is straight up opposite side of the spectrum, was he behind all those killings all along? Because if he was then he is probably one of the most evil geniuses I've ever come across

The most drastic change that surprised me was in the other direction - from what I perceived to be as a bad person in MBotF starting out way worse than I ever imagined in FoD

Spite and Envy were always bitches, but at times they seemed like they were trying to some decent things. We know Envy helped kill her father, but I always assumed there was a valid reason, since Rake was involved. We also know Envy slept with both Fisher and Andomander - causing me to think, "well she must not be THAT bad"... Other than trying to kill each other they seemed like any other morally ambiguous god.

but then, holy fuck... we find out they are homicidal psychopaths that stuff one of their sisters in an oven and murders most of the household

Puberty is a difficult time.