[Keysi]

Well just finished House of Chains, wasn't quite as emotionally gripping as DG or MoI, but it was consistently very good. I have many questions and musings however.

First thing that's really (still) confusing me is the subject of race in this universe. Made all the more confusing but at the same time beautiful by the fact that Erikson is an anthropologist.

When he divides the 'races' up- humans, toblakai, imass, trell etc. does he mean race the way we today would think of different races in that they are all part of the same species, but just from very different pats of the world and ethnic backgrounds?
The reason I am confused is that there seems to be a air bit of interbreeding going on. The only one I can safely say must be a completely differet species so far is the K'chain C'hamelle (sp...)

I'm very confused about where the Thelomen Toblakai fit into the whole 'race' structure. It's stated that they are descendants of the Imass, which I took to mean the Imass (being an 'elder race') are what the Toblakai evolved from, same with humans, in much the same way both modern humans and Neanderthals branched off from Homo Erectus in the real world. Which is all fair enough, but it is heavily hinted or outright stated that Toblakai mated with the Jaghut to engender the Jahg. And the Jaghut look like they diverged from the rest a loooong time ago, they are not very similar at all anymore.

If it does work this way it kinda seems to me that evolution in this world is making the organisms weaker as time goes on, that a single Jaghut seems to be far more powerful than what may have come after- an Imass, which in turn is more powerful than their descendants, the humans.



One quick query I have is to do with this First Empire of Dessimbelakis. This empire was a contemporary of Kallor, who reigned hundreds of thousands of years ago and was the empire that was destroyed by the Imass for being so bold as to claim to be the first, fuckin around with shapeshifting magics and probably a whole lot else. This is the same empire that Fiddler and Crokus and co. stumble around whiile in Raraku es? Thing is I thought they said it was destroyed around 9 or 11 thousand years prior to the book. Probably just my bad memory but I'm too afraid to look it up on the wiki for fear of spoilers.


One ting I found weird about this book is the amount of time spent having Karsa and that other Nom guy team up, get into adventures and bond(kinda) only to have Nom suddenly disapear from the story, get replaced by Leoman and not much else is given in way of screen time for Karsa and Leoman becoming a team. Obviously we know the did spend a lot of time together as Karsa mentions he would protect him or something plus we know they were Sha'iks bodyguards for ages. Just seems weird to have Nom disappear like that. I hope he makes a comeback eventually. This book really went big on the 'double-team, travelling companions' theme.


Aaand stop for breath. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. More to follow.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Keysi, on 07 November 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

Well just finished House of Chains, wasn't quite as emotionally gripping as DG or MoI, but it was consistently very good. I have many questions and musings however.

First thing that's really (still) confusing me is the subject of race in this universe. Made all the more confusing but at the same time beautiful by the fact that Erikson is an anthropologist.

When he divides the 'races' up- humans, toblakai, imass, trell etc. does he mean race the way we today would think of different races in that they are all part of the same species, but just from very different pats of the world and ethnic backgrounds?
The reason I am confused is that there seems to be a air bit of interbreeding going on. The only one I can safely say must be a completely differet species so far is the K'chain C'hamelle (sp...)

Let's answer some questions then, eh?

No. There were, according to early books 4 founding races. All were different genetically. Doesn't mean there wasn't an ability to interbreed... somehow.

Quote

I'm very confused about where the Thelomen Toblakai fit into the whole 'race' structure. It's stated that they are descendants of the Imass, which I took to mean the Imass (being an 'elder race') are what the Toblakai evolved from, same with humans, in much the same way both modern humans and Neanderthals branched off from Homo Erectus in the real world. Which is all fair enough, but it is heavily hinted or outright stated that Toblakai mated with the Jaghut to engender the Jahg. And the Jaghut look like they diverged from the rest a loooong time ago, they are not very similar at all anymore.

Both founding races. Different, but see above.

Quote

If it does work this way it kinda seems to me that evolution in this world is making the organisms weaker as time goes on, that a single Jaghut seems to be far more powerful than what may have come after- an Imass, which in turn is more powerful than their descendants, the humans.

RAFO, but "power" in Wu is not like WoT or any other fantasy universe.

Quote

One quick query I have is to do with this First Empire of Dessimbelakis. This empire was a contemporary of Kallor, who reigned hundreds of thousands of years ago and was the empire that was destroyed by the Imass for being so bold as to claim to be the first, fuckin around with shapeshifting magics and probably a whole lot else. This is the same empire that Fiddler and Crokus and co. stumble around whiile in Raraku es? Thing is I thought they said it was destroyed around 9 or 11 thousand years prior to the book. Probably just my bad memory but I'm too afraid to look it up on the wiki for fear of spoilers.

They were destroyed for the shape-shifting fuck up, but some were not so easily destroyed or sane enough to hide/live. There have been others since then that discovered the secret. That empire is gone....

Quote

One ting I found weird about this book is the amount of time spent having Karsa and that other Nom guy team up, get into adventures and bond(kinda) only to have Nom suddenly disapear from the story, get replaced by Leoman and not much else is given in way of screen time for Karsa and Leoman becoming a team. Obviously we know the did spend a lot of time together as Karsa mentions he would protect him or something plus we know they were Sha'iks bodyguards for ages. Just seems weird to have Nom disappear like that. I hope he makes a comeback eventually. This book really went big on the 'double-team, travelling companions' theme.


Aaand stop for breath. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. More to follow.

RAFO. Or talk to Illy. Lol.

[Keysi]

 HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2015 - 10:53 PM, said:

 Keysi, on 07 November 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

Well just finished House of Chains, wasn't quite as emotionally gripping as DG or MoI, but it was consistently very good. I have many questions and musings however.

First thing that's really (still) confusing me is the subject of race in this universe. Made all the more confusing but at the same time beautiful by the fact that Erikson is an anthropologist.

When he divides the 'races' up- humans, toblakai, imass, trell etc. does he mean race the way we today would think of different races in that they are all part of the same species, but just from very different pats of the world and ethnic backgrounds?
The reason I am confused is that there seems to be a air bit of interbreeding going on. The only one I can safely say must be a completely differet species so far is the K'chain C'hamelle (sp...)

Let's answer some questions then, eh?

No. There were, according to early books 4 founding races. All were different genetically. Doesn't mean there wasn't an ability to interbreed... somehow.

Quote

I'm very confused about where the Thelomen Toblakai fit into the whole 'race' structure. It's stated that they are descendants of the Imass, which I took to mean the Imass (being an 'elder race') are what the Toblakai evolved from, same with humans, in much the same way both modern humans and Neanderthals branched off from Homo Erectus in the real world. Which is all fair enough, but it is heavily hinted or outright stated that Toblakai mated with the Jaghut to engender the Jahg. And the Jaghut look like they diverged from the rest a loooong time ago, they are not very similar at all anymore.

Both founding races. Different, but see above.

Quote

If it does work this way it kinda seems to me that evolution in this world is making the organisms weaker as time goes on, that a single Jaghut seems to be far more powerful than what may have come after- an Imass, which in turn is more powerful than their descendants, the humans.

RAFO, but "power" in Wu is not like WoT or any other fantasy universe.

Quote

One quick query I have is to do with this First Empire of Dessimbelakis. This empire was a contemporary of Kallor, who reigned hundreds of thousands of years ago and was the empire that was destroyed by the Imass for being so bold as to claim to be the first, fuckin around with shapeshifting magics and probably a whole lot else. This is the same empire that Fiddler and Crokus and co. stumble around whiile in Raraku es? Thing is I thought they said it was destroyed around 9 or 11 thousand years prior to the book. Probably just my bad memory but I'm too afraid to look it up on the wiki for fear of spoilers.

They were destroyed for the shape-shifting fuck up, but some were not so easily destroyed or sane enough to hide/live. There have been others since then that discovered the secret. That empire is gone....

Quote

One ting I found weird about this book is the amount of time spent having Karsa and that other Nom guy team up, get into adventures and bond(kinda) only to have Nom suddenly disapear from the story, get replaced by Leoman and not much else is given in way of screen time for Karsa and Leoman becoming a team. Obviously we know the did spend a lot of time together as Karsa mentions he would protect him or something plus we know they were Sha'iks bodyguards for ages. Just seems weird to have Nom disappear like that. I hope he makes a comeback eventually. This book really went big on the 'double-team, travelling companions' theme.


Aaand stop for breath. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. More to follow.

RAFO. Or talk to Illy. Lol.

No. There were, according to early books 4 founding races. All were different genetically. Doesn't mean there wasn't an ability to interbreed... somehow.


So yeah that's my question. When he says 'race' does he really mean species? The common fantasy trope would be to call them races even though biologically the author means species. And annoyingly most o the time in fantasy different 'races/species' are given the ability to interbreed with no explanation. I just thought with Eriksons profession maybe that wasn't the case this time.

Another question on that I forgot to ask is do we know at this point everything about the Thelomen Tobalkai ancestry? I remember from the first book that the High Mge Bellurdan was a Toblakai but i'm sure someone mentioned he had Jaghut blood, though the Imass would disagree? Maybe I'm remembering wrong though.


They were destroyed for the shape-shifting fuck up, but some were not so easily destroyed or sane enough to hide/live. There have been others since then that discovered the secret. That empire is gone....


Sorry, my question on that is more, have I messed up on the timeline. I thought in DG it was mentioned they lived around 9000 or 11000 years ago, but since then most references have had them in the hundreds of thousands of years ago.




One other thing i've just remembered. The whole 'alien' realm thing has me wondering. When teh CG is referred to as a god from an 'alien' realm does that just mean he had his own realm/warren he lived n much the way Fenner did before being pulled into the mortal one? Or is it something deeper, like an entirely different....universe, complete with its own pantheon similar to but distinct from the one we are reading about?

Same question I suppose for the Tiste races. I'm sure they are described as being from an 'alien' realm.

The whole thing with Heboric going off into space, while bloody awesome, added more confusion for me. Instead of different 'realm' is it perhaps different planets?

Bah, my head hurts. This is awesome.

[worry]

 Keysi, on 07 November 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

Another question on that I forgot to ask is do we know at this point everything about

Let me stop you here and give you a blanket "NO" for all questions that start this way.

As far as the use of "race" vs. "species" you shouldn't assume that because SE is the author that he is also the narrator. That's not a hint, per se, I'm just saying certainty is a fool's errand. Origins are murky, but there's info to come.

Regarding the CG and the Tiste in particular, all that is indeed RAFO, but rest assured these questions are explored.

And yah, even outer space is bound to be wacky in a world with sorcery and warrens, huh.

[Keysi]

Surely he is the narrator of the glossary at the back though? Or if not we can at least expect the glossary to be written from an omniscient-narrator POV?

I only ask because races are mentioned in those.

[worry]

Could be written by Historian Bulch of the 99th Semblage for all I know.

[HoosierDaddy]

 worry, on 08 November 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

Could be written by Historian Bulch of the 99th Semblage for all I know.

Correct. The Malazan Book of the Fallen is written, primarily by narrators who only know what they see. Even the end notes are questionable. Dramatis Personae is generally correct, and I mean that. Generally.

You have to understand these are stories being related by those who took place in them for the most part. They cannot be taken as sheer truth.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Keysi, on 07 November 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

 HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2015 - 10:53 PM, said:

 Keysi, on 07 November 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

Well just finished House of Chains, wasn't quite as emotionally gripping as DG or MoI, but it was consistently very good. I have many questions and musings however.

First thing that's really (still) confusing me is the subject of race in this universe. Made all the more confusing but at the same time beautiful by the fact that Erikson is an anthropologist.

When he divides the 'races' up- humans, toblakai, imass, trell etc. does he mean race the way we today would think of different races in that they are all part of the same species, but just from very different pats of the world and ethnic backgrounds?
The reason I am confused is that there seems to be a air bit of interbreeding going on. The only one I can safely say must be a completely differet species so far is the K'chain C'hamelle (sp...)

Let's answer some questions then, eh?

No. There were, according to early books 4 founding races. All were different genetically. Doesn't mean there wasn't an ability to interbreed... somehow.

Quote

I'm very confused about where the Thelomen Toblakai fit into the whole 'race' structure. It's stated that they are descendants of the Imass, which I took to mean the Imass (being an 'elder race') are what the Toblakai evolved from, same with humans, in much the same way both modern humans and Neanderthals branched off from Homo Erectus in the real world. Which is all fair enough, but it is heavily hinted or outright stated that Toblakai mated with the Jaghut to engender the Jahg. And the Jaghut look like they diverged from the rest a loooong time ago, they are not very similar at all anymore.

Both founding races. Different, but see above.

Quote

If it does work this way it kinda seems to me that evolution in this world is making the organisms weaker as time goes on, that a single Jaghut seems to be far more powerful than what may have come after- an Imass, which in turn is more powerful than their descendants, the humans.

RAFO, but "power" in Wu is not like WoT or any other fantasy universe.

Quote

One quick query I have is to do with this First Empire of Dessimbelakis. This empire was a contemporary of Kallor, who reigned hundreds of thousands of years ago and was the empire that was destroyed by the Imass for being so bold as to claim to be the first, fuckin around with shapeshifting magics and probably a whole lot else. This is the same empire that Fiddler and Crokus and co. stumble around whiile in Raraku es? Thing is I thought they said it was destroyed around 9 or 11 thousand years prior to the book. Probably just my bad memory but I'm too afraid to look it up on the wiki for fear of spoilers.

They were destroyed for the shape-shifting fuck up, but some were not so easily destroyed or sane enough to hide/live. There have been others since then that discovered the secret. That empire is gone....

Quote

One ting I found weird about this book is the amount of time spent having Karsa and that other Nom guy team up, get into adventures and bond(kinda) only to have Nom suddenly disapear from the story, get replaced by Leoman and not much else is given in way of screen time for Karsa and Leoman becoming a team. Obviously we know the did spend a lot of time together as Karsa mentions he would protect him or something plus we know they were Sha'iks bodyguards for ages. Just seems weird to have Nom disappear like that. I hope he makes a comeback eventually. This book really went big on the 'double-team, travelling companions' theme.


Aaand stop for breath. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. More to follow.

RAFO. Or talk to Illy. Lol.

No. There were, according to early books 4 founding races. All were different genetically. Doesn't mean there wasn't an ability to interbreed... somehow.


So yeah that's my question. When he says 'race' does he really mean species? The common fantasy trope would be to call them races even though biologically the author means species. And annoyingly most o the time in fantasy different 'races/species' are given the ability to interbreed with no explanation. I just thought with Eriksons profession maybe that wasn't the case this time.

Another question on that I forgot to ask is do we know at this point everything about the Thelomen Tobalkai ancestry? I remember from the first book that the High Mge Bellurdan was a Toblakai but i'm sure someone mentioned he had Jaghut blood, though the Imass would disagree? Maybe I'm remembering wrong though.


They were destroyed for the shape-shifting fuck up, but some were not so easily destroyed or sane enough to hide/live. There have been others since then that discovered the secret. That empire is gone....


Sorry, my question on that is more, have I messed up on the timeline. I thought in DG it was mentioned they lived around 9000 or 11000 years ago, but since then most references have had them in the hundreds of thousands of years ago.




One other thing i've just remembered. The whole 'alien' realm thing has me wondering. When teh CG is referred to as a god from an 'alien' realm does that just mean he had his own realm/warren he lived n much the way Fenner did before being pulled into the mortal one? Or is it something deeper, like an entirely different....universe, complete with its own pantheon similar to but distinct from the one we are reading about?

Same question I suppose for the Tiste races. I'm sure they are described as being from an 'alien' realm.

The whole thing with Heboric going off into space, while bloody awesome, added more confusion for me. Instead of different 'realm' is it perhaps different planets?

Bah, my head hurts. This is awesome.

I'm sorry, I'll try to answer to my best but the formatting is tough. If you need help in how to format feel free to ask and we'll help. Also, see Worry's note below on some questions. We never know everything.

Quote

So yeah that's my question. When he says 'race' does he really mean species? The common fantasy trope would be to call them races even though biologically the author means species. And annoyingly most o the time in fantasy different 'races/species' are given the ability to interbreed with no explanation. I just thought with Eriksons profession maybe that wasn't the case this time.

This question is unanswerable. In a universe that obviously has "different" peoples they call them what they call them. Here, there are just humans that we consider that way.

Quote

Another question on that I forgot to ask is do we know at this point everything about the Thelomen Tobalkai ancestry? I remember from the first book that the High Mge Bellurdan was a Toblakai but i'm sure someone mentioned he had Jaghut blood, though the Imass would disagree? Maybe I'm remembering wrong though.

No. Assume you know less than you think you do. Good idea for this entire series on everything.

Quote

Sorry, my question on that is more, have I messed up on the timeline. I thought in DG it was mentioned they lived around 9000 or 11000 years ago, but since then most references have had them in the hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Assume the Human First Empire is far, far, far older than you think. IIRC, in MOI prologue it states that that Kallor's Empire was 100+ thousand years ago, and later we learn that Dessembilackes' was concurrent with it.

Quote

One other thing i've just remembered. The whole 'alien' realm thing has me wondering. When teh CG is referred to as a god from an 'alien' realm does that just mean he had his own realm/warren he lived n much the way Fenner did before being pulled into the mortal one? Or is it something deeper, like an entirely different....universe, complete with its own pantheon similar to but distinct from the one we are reading about?

Same question I suppose for the Tiste races. I'm sure they are described as being from an 'alien' realm.

The whole thing with Heboric going off into space, while bloody awesome, added more confusion for me. Instead of different 'realm' is it perhaps different planets?

Yeah, it's confusing.

Track down SE and ask for us, please.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 08 November 2015 - 01:33 AM

[Gorefest]

Murky is the key word here. If you would take the 'real universe' biological definitions of race and species, then race would probably be more appropriate than species as we have already seen that interbreeding can occur. However, what does 'founding race' even mean when you have other races like the Tiste hanging around that appear to be of a similar age or maybe even older? There is definitely lots more info to come regarding origins and various racial/species groups, but don't expect that more info = clarification. As in our world, history is murky. Anthropology is murky. Twenty years ago we thought home sapiens replaced neanderthals, ten years ago the hype was to assume they actually coexisted and interbred, and in the past year or so whole new, previous unheard of subspecies/groups were popping up all over the place that changed the whole picture again.
Same goes for other worlds. Is a warren actually another world? Is it a moon? Is it a parallel dimension? Are all warrens similar in their non-Wu-iness, or are some worlds more 'alien' than others? Or is it really all the same world but a different time zone? Why are some inhabitants considered demons but others not? If the folks who use, travel through or inhabit warrens don't even seem to know, how are we supposed to? It is great stuff to speculate on, also to get terribly frustrated about at times, but one way or the other it makes a heck of an interesting and vibrant backdrop for the thing that really matters, which is the stories about the people inhabiting the world. It's why there will always be food for discussion and contemplation, long after new books will have stopped appearing.

[Keysi]

 HoosierDaddy, on 08 November 2015 - 01:18 AM, said:

 worry, on 08 November 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

Could be written by Historian Bulch of the 99th Semblage for all I know.

Correct. The Malazan Book of the Fallen is written, primarily by narrators who only know what they see. Even the end notes are questionable. Dramatis Personae is generally correct, and I mean that. Generally.

You have to understand these are stories being related by those who took place in them for the most part. They cannot be taken as sheer truth.

Hmmm even the glossary at the back? I would have thought that that was information that you could rely on being supplied directly b the author and as unquestionable. But then again I don't exactly have any advanced training in literature. Now I'm very confused.

[Keysi]

Quote

I'm sorry, I'll try to answer to my best but the formatting is tough. If you need help in how to format feel free to ask and we'll help. Also, see Worry's note below on some questions. We never know everything.<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">

<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">


Umm yea...can someone please explain to me how to quote properly. I'm biffing this right up. Never had this trouble on any other forum before. Sorry and I R dumb



I'm not even going to try to quote any other part of your reply but in response to what you said about Kallor's empire and the First Empire being hundreds of thousands of years old yea I get that bit.

It's just the mention in Deadhouse Gates of the First Empire of the humans which the T'lan Imass destroyed, the destruction supposedly took place around (in my poor memory) around 9,000 or 11,000 years ago. Just thinking I possibly misread it at the time Fiddler and the rest of them were talking about it. Or Fid and Heboric( I think) could have been unreliable and wrong.?

[worry]

Fiddler and Heboric aren't in any scenes together, as far as I recall. It's possible they both find ancient cities/ruins and talk about them, but not to each other, and probably not the same ruins. Maybe Kulp and Heboric at the oasis? Not sure if that was First Empire, but it was ~9000 years old according to Heboric. Mappo and Icarium also find ruins from the First Empire that Icarium calculates they last visited 94,000 years ago though, which is closer to the number we're seeing here.

[Itwæs Nom]

[ quote] blah blah blah [ /quote]

without the spaces in brackets

[Keysi]

 worry, on 08 November 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Fiddler and Heboric aren't in any scenes together, as far as I recall. It's possible they both find ancient cities/ruins and talk about them, but not to each other, and probably not the same ruins. Maybe Kulp and Heboric at the oasis? Not sure if that was First Empire, but it was ~9000 years old according to Heboric. Mappo and Icarium also find ruins from the First Empire that Icarium calculates they last visited 94,000 years ago though, which is closer to the number we're seeing here.

Cool thanks, that makes a bit more sense now.

[Puck]

Even if the First Empire (human) was destoryed some 10000 years ago, it does not mean it only existed for fifty years or something. It could have easily existed for 90000 years, considering the time scale of Wu, and have been concurrent with Kallor's Empire.

[Keysi]

 Puckstein, on 08 November 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Even if the First Empire (human) was destoryed some 10000 years ago, it does not mean it only existed for fifty years or something. It could have easily existed for 90000 years, considering the time scale of Wu, and have been concurrent with Kallor's Empire.

Haha funnily enough, the question about timings had been bothering me for months and then about ten minutes after posting the question that^ very thought occurred to me. Weird that.

[Keysi]

Something else I just remembered that I've not seen mentioned much anywhere else- Kilava was rather involved in the events that lead both to the Whirlwind Rebellion and in the birth of the Panion Domin.
I wonder if this is brought back up in further books?

[Abyss]

 Keysi, on 08 November 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

 Puckstein, on 08 November 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Even if the First Empire (human) was destoryed some 10000 years ago, it does not mean it only existed for fifty years or something. It could have easily existed for 90000 years, considering the time scale of Wu, and have been concurrent with Kallor's Empire.

Haha funnily enough, the question about timings had been bothering me for months and then about ten minutes after posting the question that^ very thought occurred to me. Weird that.

And just to complicate things further, multiple empires may have the same or similar titles.... The Imass call theirs The First Empire, which predates the human First Empire, while Kallor runs around referring to his Empire...

 Keysi, on 11 November 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Something else I just remembered that I've not seen mentioned much anywhere else- Kilava was rather involved in the events that lead both to the Whirlwind Rebellion and in the birth of the Panion Domin.
I wonder if this is brought back up in further books?

RAFO but fair to say Kilava has been a major player in the books so far, if subtle or historical at times.

[Kanese S's]

 Keysi, on 07 November 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

Well just finished House of Chains, wasn't quite as emotionally gripping as DG or MoI, but it was consistently very good. I have many questions and musings however.

First thing that's really (still) confusing me is the subject of race in this universe. Made all the more confusing but at the same time beautiful by the fact that Erikson is an anthropologist.

When he divides the 'races' up- humans, toblakai, imass, trell etc. does he mean race the way we today would think of different races in that they are all part of the same species, but just from very different pats of the world and ethnic backgrounds?
The reason I am confused is that there seems to be a air bit of interbreeding going on. The only one I can safely say must be a completely differet species so far is the K'chain C'hamelle (sp...)

I'm very confused about where the Thelomen Toblakai fit into the whole 'race' structure. It's stated that they are descendants of the Imass, which I took to mean the Imass (being an 'elder race') are what the Toblakai evolved from, same with humans, in much the same way both modern humans and Neanderthals branched off from Homo Erectus in the real world. Which is all fair enough, but it is heavily hinted or outright stated that Toblakai mated with the Jaghut to engender the Jahg. And the Jaghut look like they diverged from the rest a loooong time ago, they are not very similar at all anymore.

If it does work this way it kinda seems to me that evolution in this world is making the organisms weaker as time goes on, that a single Jaghut seems to be far more powerful than what may have come after- an Imass, which in turn is more powerful than their descendants, the humans.



One quick query I have is to do with this First Empire of Dessimbelakis. This empire was a contemporary of Kallor, who reigned hundreds of thousands of years ago and was the empire that was destroyed by the Imass for being so bold as to claim to be the first, fuckin around with shapeshifting magics and probably a whole lot else. This is the same empire that Fiddler and Crokus and co. stumble around whiile in Raraku es? Thing is I thought they said it was destroyed around 9 or 11 thousand years prior to the book. Probably just my bad memory but I'm too afraid to look it up on the wiki for fear of spoilers.


One ting I found weird about this book is the amount of time spent having Karsa and that other Nom guy team up, get into adventures and bond(kinda) only to have Nom suddenly disapear from the story, get replaced by Leoman and not much else is given in way of screen time for Karsa and Leoman becoming a team. Obviously we know the did spend a lot of time together as Karsa mentions he would protect him or something plus we know they were Sha'iks bodyguards for ages. Just seems weird to have Nom disappear like that. I hope he makes a comeback eventually. This book really went big on the 'double-team, travelling companions' theme.


Aaand stop for breath. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. More to follow.

Jaghut are individually powerful, but they breed slowly and have never had very large numbers. I mean, yes, a Jaghut outmatches an Imass, but how many Imass are/were there versus how many Jaghut? After all, the Imass won and the remaining Jaghut are in hiding from them.

As far as Imass being more powerful than humans, I wouldn't say that's the case. T'lan Imass, maybe, sure, but they're undead and can take ridiculous amounts of wounds because of it.

The characters involved don't have a very solid way of dating ancient empires. There's no radio-carbon dating yet in this world. And the First Empire was long enough ago in it that it's mostly legendary to the current characters.

People come into and out of other people's stories. Happens in RL and in Malaz.

Karsa and Leoman mostly just hung around in Raraku together.

[Kanese S's]

 worry, on 08 November 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

 Keysi, on 07 November 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

Another question on that I forgot to ask is do we know at this point everything about

Let me stop you here and give you a blanket "NO" for all questions that start this way.

As far as the use of "race" vs. "species" you shouldn't assume that because SE is the author that he is also the narrator. That's not a hint, per se, I'm just saying certainty is a fool's errand. Origins are murky, but there's info to come.

Regarding the CG and the Tiste in particular, all that is indeed RAFO, but rest assured these questions are explored.

And yah, even outer space is bound to be wacky in a world with sorcery and warrens, huh.

Exactly. The narration in Malazan isn't omniscient.