[Manderley]

Warning, large spoilers up to the end of DG:

I don't get it. I can safely say, now that I've finished DG, that not only is GotM an easier read but also a better, more coherent book.

When so many things happen randomly or with very little explanation, it becomes very hard to get into the book. Maybe I'm missing some obvious things but I can think of the following questions of the top of my head.

What exactly is the Path of the Hands? Why is there a convergence at this precise moment? How do the Soletaken and D'ivers even know the gate is now open? Why does Kellanved care if a bunch of D'ivers and Soletaken ascend to the extend that he risks his own hounds? Why does Icarium think finding the gate will help him?

Why do dragons and demons pop out of nowhere? When Sormo was doing some ritual (I have no clue what he was doing either) why did that Demon come out of nowhere to help him? Why did that dragon help (inadvertently?) Kulp and the others to escape the warren? Is this dragon same as the one which appears towards the end of the book in front of Pust? Who was that bad mage near the Otataral Islands?

Where the does the army of the apocalypse come from? What is the point of that book? Why does it need to be opened for the rebellion to begin? If the numbers of the Apocalypse army are so huge then why wait for some bloody book to be opened? Also, it's beyond convenient that Kalam knows the guy who just happens to have the book for Kalam to neatly deliver the book into the hands of the Shaik. And speaking of the Shaik, how retarded does she and her bodyguards have to be for her to be killed like that?

The delivery guys turning up from Daru was a terrible plot device as was the that tribe turning up and deciding to fight Dom instead of Coltaine's army.

Is it explained why Mappo and Icarium end up at Aren Way of all places when they exit the Azath?

The Chain of Dogs was probably the best storyline in the book but I thought the impact of Coltaine dying towards the end would have been a lot stronger had Eriksen spent more time in establishing his character to a greater extent.

Sorry. This book really annoyed me! Especially after I thought GotM was so promising.

[Andorion]

Lets see, forgetting many things, but ..

Path of Hands: A path leading to a place where a Soletaken/D'ivers may Ascend. Its magic. Why is is happening now? Its magic. But its unrelated to the rest of the stuff going on in Seven Cities. Soletaken/D'vers can vaguely sense the Path. They want to Ascend, gain more power. ST and Cots want to stop them because an Ascended Soletaken/'D'ivers would be a serious problem plus something to do with the First Throne. Forgetting the rest

Demon - I am blanking on this, but that was probably Apt being Apt

The Army of the Apocalypse is the rebel army composed of the rebels of Seven Cities and the traitor soldiers of Korbolo Dom. The Book is a magical artifact and is supposed to raise Shaik to her full power. But as you saw things don't always work out the way people think they will.

Its not about numbers. Shaik is the symbol of the Apocalypse goddess in whose name the rebellion happened. its a religious war, and for it to reach its climax Shaik must open the book. Plus numbers are only enough to defeat the existing Malazan armies, but what about when the Empire strikes back?

Nobody knows how the Azath works, so no explanation

Edit: Khundryl: They are an extremely proud tribe who decided to demonstrate that they are by no means compelled to rebel just because somebody said so. Plus they are extremely impressed by what Coltaine is doing

[Itwæs Nom]

so, at start Id suggest numbering your questions, it will be more synoptic especially for you

1) Im not sure what exactly is that, but its a way for Soletakens and D'ivers' to ascend
2) the convergence is because of all the Soleaken and Ds trying to ascend
3) magical feeling? use your fantasy ffs
4) because nobody likes Soletakens?(except you Messremb ofcourse) I dont remember that much
5) maybe some magical feeling again? I dont remeber this much either
6) they dont pop out of nowhere. Did you expect them all just sit by the fireplace and drink wine ranting about old good times?
7) honestly I dont remeber this part at all
8) Im not sure the dragon did it deliberately, dont remember much
9) idk
10) idk
11) Rebels who dont like occupation. Cant they have army or what?
12) Im not really sure again, but iirc it bestows some god powers to the chosen one who can read that(sha'ik)?
13&14) Religious reasons
15) Well Kalam is from 7cities and he wasnt just sitting by the fireplace when he lived there. Or maybe that guy was his contact when he was a Claw. Hes a very high figure in local spy hierarchy iirc, so its natural.
16) Wasnt there some prophecy about her death anyway? Plus the red blades are pretty able guys. AND YOU BETTER NOT CALL THOSE TWO RETARDED YOU LITTLE MAGGOT, AND NOW WITNESS! And Leoman is cool guy too.
17). Tribes have their pride and this tribe decided to be the brave guys.
18) I think its not
19) I think he had enough extent. You had a chance to see what hes done and its on you how review him. HOW CAN YOU SAY HIS DEATH WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH? IT ONLY COULD BE STRONGER IF KORBOLO GOT OUT OF THE BOOK AND CRUCIFIXED YOU RIGHT ASIDE COLTAINE. Aim for this one Abyss, he deserves it more.

Honestly, as you can see above, I didnt enjoy most of that book much either and I agree that it was heavier than GoTM. Except Chain of Dogs which was fucking awesome. For me MoI dragged me fully into the world, so I suppose it should get better for you too.

[Abyss]

Manderley, on 30 October 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

I don't get it. I can safely say, now that I've finished DG, that not only is GotM an easier read but also a better, more coherent book.

GotM gets criticised for dropping the unprepared fantasy fan into the middle of a story in progress and then clobbering them with unclear sides, shifting and just plain fake alliances, and magic system that is unlike well pretty much everything.
AND THEN you factor in the various races (wtf is a Barghast? Are Andii like elves??? Wait, who are all these blue people? Jaghut Tyrant WHAT??? wuzza eleint?), references to things unexplained but important (the Azath, a finnest, otataral) and yeah, the story itself is fairly straightforward but there's so much going on around it and some readers have a hard time with that.

By the time you get to DG, the world is a bit clearer even if the story/stories is/are more diverse. Pun intended.

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When so many things happen randomly or with very little explanation, it becomes very hard to get into the book. Maybe I'm missing some obvious things but I can think of the following questions of the top of my head.

What exactly is the Path of the Hands? Why is there a convergence at this precise moment? How do the Soletaken and D'ivers even know the gate is now open? Why does Kellanved care if a bunch of D'ivers and Soletaken ascend to the extend that he risks his own hounds?

Converges are like tides or winds, they can just happen due to various events, not all obvious, and the powerful beings sense them building. Think of a convergence like a tropical storm... different factors in temperature, air flow and humidity in different places can lead to a massive storm somewhere else.... different interactions between the many powers at work can lead to a convergence.... 'power draws power'.

The Path of Hands stood open... an opportunity for taking power existed and everyone and their best friends were out to seize it.

ST didn't want that to happen because as explained, anyone sitting on the Throne at the end of the Path would gain a hell of a lot of power and might be an enemy, rival or just a pain in his shadowy ass.

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Why does Icarium think finding the gate will help him?

Icarium is insane.
But he was looking for Tremolor, the Path was just the route there.

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Why do dragons and demons pop out of nowhere?

They use warrens to travel.

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When Sormo was doing some ritual (I have no clue what he was doing either) why did that Demon come out of nowhere to help him?

Sormo was trying to divine what was going on that was causing such upheaval in the spirits and warrens - it was the Path of hands but he didn't know that until he did the ritual and almost died.

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Why did that dragon help (inadvertently?) Kulp and the others to escape the warren? Is this dragon same as the one which appears towards the end of the book in front of Pust?

It's the same dragon, but what makes you think it was helping them?

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Who was that bad mage near the Otataral Islands?

Escapee mage from the mines,driven mad by the otataral effect on his warren. We never learn more than that.

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Where the does the army of the apocalypse come from? What is the point of that book? Why does it need to be opened for the rebellion to begin? If the numbers of the Apocalypse army are so huge then why wait for some bloody book to be opened?

The army was the rebellion waiting to happen since the last rebellion was put down.
The book is a religious object that also links to a somewhat dormant goddess waiting to wake up and support the rebellion. Opening it gave her power as her followers believed it would.
Religion is weird.

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Also, it's beyond convenient that Kalam knows the guy who just happens to have the book for Kalam to neatly deliver the book into the hands of the Shaik.

Kalam's history is hinted at as having connections to 7C.

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And speaking of the Shaik, how retarded does she and her bodyguards have to be for her to be killed like that?

They were ambushed by some hardcore soldiers, and Shaik was waiting to die and be reborn in any event.

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as was the that tribe turning up and deciding to fight Dom instead of Coltaine's army.

The Khundryll didn't care about the rebellion, it was just a convenient excuse to get close enough wipe out their primary rival tribe. Also, for pride/bragging rights (which is a big thing on 7C among most of the tribes, hence their resentment of the Malazan conquest) they decided to see whether they could defeat the enemy the Chain could not ... and they couldn't.

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Is it explained why Mappo and Icarium end up at Aren Way of all places when they exit the Azath?

Nope. The Azath sent them where they wanted to, so presumably Mappo had a reason.

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The Chain of Dogs was probably the best storyline in the book but I thought the impact of Coltaine dying towards the end would have been a lot stronger had Eriksen spent more time in establishing his character to a greater extent.

Have to disagree with you here... Coltaine is developed thru the eyes of everyone else around him. We learn a tonne about why he is a big deal and his death a tragedy, and it works because we never actually get inside his head. It's brilliantly done by SE and Coltaine's crucifixion and death made me viscerally angry/uncomfortable.

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Sorry. This book really annoyed me! Especially after I thought GotM was so promising.

Hey its your opinion and you're entitled to it even if it does mean we're going to wipe your brain .

You may find MoI more to your liking... it's a little more BIG E EPIC Fantasy than DG's more 'human' stories. I waver between which is my favorite.

[iso9001]

I only have finished first two books so I believe I have one or two words to say.

Basically, as Abyss mentioned above, it is really hard for basic fantasy readers (wth does that mean?) to get into the book. I, for one, had to search for many terms/stories/events in GotM which resulted to spoilers. Therefore, I managed to understand the first book thanks to the spoilers. Long story short, there are lots of plots, people etc. in the first book and it really, REALLY hard yo get them all.

However, after managing to read the first book, it will be easier to read and understand the second book. It is not because that SE explains everything but because you get used to SE and his style of writing and telling stories You REALIZE that although you fail to understand something, it most likely to be explained later.

Well, that was the case for me at least. Now I started the third book, and even the prologue impresed me very much where the prologue of the first book meant absolutely nothing. I think I made myseld clear

Regards

[Abyss]

iso9001, on 30 October 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

I only have finished first two books so I believe I have one or two words to say.

Basically, as Abyss mentioned above, it is really hard for basic fantasy readers (wth does that mean?) to get into the book. ...

Not so much 'basic' as people who are used to nice easy intro chapters where the young naive farmboy or girl has everything explained to them in easily digestible chunks by a kindly wizard for the first ten chapters and the badguys wear black and the elves sing and the dwarves are dour... which isn't nearly as much of the fantasy lit out there as it once was, but still makes up a big chunk of it.

Readers who can accept that they don't know what's going on and just roll with the wonder of it - and i presume that includes Manderley - tend to enjoy the fuckstars out of GotM. Readers who can't get over not knowing what a 'warren' is, not so much.

[iso9001]

Abyss, on 30 October 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

iso9001, on 30 October 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

I only have finished first two books so I believe I have one or two words to say.

Basically, as Abyss mentioned above, it is really hard for basic fantasy readers (wth does that mean?) to get into the book. ...

Not so much 'basic' as people who are used to nice easy intro chapters where the young naive farmboy or girl has everything explained to them in easily digestible chunks by a kindly wizard for the first ten chapters and the badguys wear black and the elves sing and the dwarves are dour... which isn't nearly as much of the fantasy lit out there as it once was, but still makes up a big chunk of it.

Readers who can accept that they don't know what's going on and just roll with the wonder of it - and i presume that includes Manderley - tend to enjoy the fuckstars out of GotM. Readers who can't get over not knowing what a 'warren' is, not so much.

You know what, I am still not sure what a warren is and don't think I am ever gonna understand it fully

Anyways, it is great to read and enjoy this great series

[worry]

Manderley, on 30 October 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Maybe I'm missing some obvious things

Thank you guys for resolving this "maybe".

[Grief]

In part I think it's that people forget their first time reading the series. A lot of the books are quite drastically different from the novel before, and narrative threads often aren't aren't picked up across several books. The over-arching connections are easier to see once you've read further. Plenty of people on the forum complained about books being difficult to get into as they came out, not just GotM.

I think GotM is most singled out because it's the first time you jump into the world. You get used to it by later books, and recurring characters start to be more familiar. Also, GotM is in some ways incongruous with the rest of the series. It has what people usually call "GotMisms", which are elements of the novel that don't really mesh with the rest of the series. For one extremely minor example (Memories of Ice spoiler):

Spoiler

A very minor character in GotM also appears in MoI, except with a different gender.

I think this makes people, in hindsight, see DG as sort of more continuous with the rest of the series (also it showcases Erikson's tragic abilities more fully, and a lot of people point to it as when the series went from good to great for them).

I found that I appreciated Deadhouse Gates a lot more on later readings. On my first reading, I can remember feeling frustrated wondering about all the narrative threads that seemed to have arbitrarily been left out of the series. After MoI I think you start getting more of a feel for how the series works in a sense.

[Gnaw]

Damn. There's more than one spoiler in that first post....

[Grief]

There's always an element of "read at your risk" if you're reading a thread in the subforum of a book you haven't read (especially in a topic where someone is discussing their impressions upon finishing).

I've edited in a warning anyhow. Also, please report posts if you think they're spoilery! It helps the mods notice and respond to it faster.

Manderley, discussing DG spoilers in the DG forum is completely fine (except when the OP makes it clear that they've only read to a certain point -- use common sense basically, and if you're wanting to discuss a book before you've finished it, make sure to mention that in your OP). If you're posting a topic with large spoilers for that book then it's nice to put a short warning at the start of the post or in the title. It's not a requirement though. Feel free to PM me or one of the other admin if you've got any questions about this sort of thing, and welcome to the forum.

[Grief]

Speaking of spoilers, I've just went through this thread and edited just about every second response.

Reminder: RAFO can absolutely be a spoiler.

[Manderley]

Abyss, on 30 October 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

GotM gets criticised for dropping the unprepared fantasy fan into the middle of a story in progress and then clobbering them with unclear sides, shifting and just plain fake alliances, and magic system that is unlike well pretty much everything.
AND THEN you factor in the various races (wtf is a Barghast? Are Andii like elves??? Wait, who are all these blue people? Jaghut Tyrant WHAT??? wuzza eleint?), references to things unexplained but important (the Azath, a finnest, otataral) and yeah, the story itself is fairly straightforward but there's so much going on around it and some readers have a hard time with that.

By the time you get to DG, the world is a bit clearer even if the story/stories is/are more diverse. Pun intended.

I can live with not knowing everything. Like you say, there were lots of unexplained things even in GotM but on the whole the various plotlines, characters and their motivations were a lot better fleshed making for a more enjoyable read. It's a ten book series and I get it; not everything's going to be explained in the very same book. But the when the answer to pretty much every question is RAFO then then there's something wrong with the way the book/series is structured as a whole.

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Converges are like tides or winds, they can just happen due to various events, not all obvious, and the powerful beings sense them building. Think of a convergence like a tropical storm... different factors in temperature, air flow and humidity in different places can lead to a massive storm somewhere else.... different interactions between the many powers at work can lead to a convergence.... 'power draws power'.

The Path of Hands stood open... an opportunity for taking power existed and everyone and their best friends were out to seize it.

ST didn't want that to happen because as explained, anyone sitting on the Throne at the end of the Path would gain a hell of a lot of power and might be an enemy, rival or just a pain in his shadowy ass.

I get all that but for me it's all too vague given how much time the plot takes up in the book and significance of it. I dunno, I just don't feel very convinced with the whole thing.

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They use warrens to travel.

So do humans and mages though. My point is they seem to pop up randomly in areas and used to solve/help plot points in a way that's very unsatisfactory.

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It's the same dragon, but what makes you think it was helping them?

It did help them get out of the warren though, intended or not, even though there appeared to be no reason or rhyme for why it appeared in the first place.

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scapee mage from the mines,driven mad by the otataral effect on his warren. We never learn more than that.

Damn. I half thought it might be Heirlock.

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The army was the rebellion waiting to happen since the last rebellion was put down.
The book is a religious object that also links to a somewhat dormant goddess waiting to wake up and support the rebellion. Opening it gave her power as her followers believed it would.
Religion is weird.

If they had such a big army, outnumbering the Malazans, so enormously then what the hell were they doing for all this while. And how did the army know the book had been opened? Also, what is the ratio of civilians to soldiers in the army of apocalypse? If the bulk of the army are normal civilians then I suppose the whole thing makes more sense than if it's just a bunch of soldiers waiting around for a book to open.

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Kalam's history is hinted at as having connections to 7C.

They were ambushed by some hardcore soldiers, and Shaik was waiting to die and be reborn in any event.

Come on. Kalam knows a guy who owes him something. And it just happens that he has the most prized book on the continent in his possession at the very moment when the goddess is supposed to be waking up.

The ambush was done way too easily regardless of whether the Shaik was waiting to die or not. But this is a minor quibble really...

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The Khundryll didn't care about the rebellion, it was just a convenient excuse to get close enough wipe out their primary rival tribe. Also, for pride/bragging rights (which is a big thing on 7C among most of the tribes, hence their resentment of the Malazan conquest) they decided to see whether they could defeat the enemy the Chain could not ... and they couldn't.

It was very convenient that the when the Chain were on their last legs, you first had random delivery guys pop out of the warren and deliver them food and drinks and that was followed up by a tribe, who in reality should be fighting you, helps is taking out your enemies and buys you more time.

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Have to disagree with you here... Coltaine is developed thru the eyes of everyone else around him. We learn a tonne about why he is a big deal and his death a tragedy, and it works because we never actually get inside his head. It's brilliantly done by SE and Coltaine's crucifixion and death made me viscerally angry/uncomfortable.

Completely disagree. We barely see or learn much about him once the Chain of Dogs gets under way. I thought his death was mildly tragic because of the circumstances but beyond that I didn't care too much for the character himself

Grief, on 30 October 2015 - 10:58 PM, said:

There's always an element of "read at your risk" if you're reading a thread in the subforum of a book you haven't read (especially in a topic where someone is discussing their impressions upon finishing).

I've edited in a warning anyhow. Also, please report posts if you think they're spoilery! It helps the mods notice and respond to it faster.

Manderley, discussing DG spoilers in the DG forum is completely fine (except when the OP makes it clear that they've only read to a certain point -- use common sense basically, and if you're wanting to discuss a book before you've finished it, make sure to mention that in your OP). If you're posting a topic with large spoilers for that book then it's nice to put a short warning at the start of the post or in the title. It's not a requirement though. Feel free to PM me or one of the other admin if you've got any questions about this sort of thing, and welcome to the forum.

My bad. I assumed the DG forum was fair game when it comes to spoilers for the first two books.

[koehkont]

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They use warrens to travel.

So do humans and mages though. My point is they seem to pop up randomly in areas and used to solve/help plot points in a way that's very unsatisfactory.

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It's the same dragon, but what makes you think it was helping them?

It did help them get out of the warren though, intended or not, even though there appeared to be no reason or rhyme for why it appeared in the first place.

Why would a dragon need a reason to travel? I mean people travel, animals travel, not all of them have an explicit reason, they just tend to do that. And this time it turned out to be in their
favour, but I can also imagine that stumbling upon a dragon can be a major disadvantage. It was just a coincidence. And when random things tend to be in your favour you call it luck, and
when a random thing is to your disadvantage you call it bad luck. Maybe the fact that the random thing is a dragon this time, makes your mind you crazy with significane, because you know
it's a dragon. If it was a ladybug helping them escape in some coincidental way, you might not have even thought about it.

I don't think I get why you seek so much reason behind all of this?

[Manderley]

koehkont, on 31 October 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why would a dragon need a reason to travel? I mean people travel, animals travel, not all of them have an explicit reason, they just tend to do that. And this time it turned out to be in their
favour, but I can also imagine that stumbling upon a dragon can be a major disadvantage. It was just a coincidence. And when random things tend to be in your favour you call it luck, and
when a random thing is to your disadvantage you call it bad luck. Maybe the fact that the random thing is a dragon this time, makes your mind you crazy with significane, because you know
it's a dragon. If it was a ladybug helping them escape in some coincidental way, you might not have even thought about it.

I don't think I get why you seek so much reason behind all of this?

Because Kulp being unable to get them out of the warren using his magic was really stressed at that point in the book. Then, out of the blue a dragon comes in and saves the day. The point is not that it's a dragon but how just how random it was. Had it been one incident it wouldn't be a big deal I guess but this seems to be a theme in the book.

[koehkont]

Manderley, on 31 October 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

koehkont, on 31 October 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why would a dragon need a reason to travel? I mean people travel, animals travel, not all of them have an explicit reason, they just tend to do that. And this time it turned out to be in their
favour, but I can also imagine that stumbling upon a dragon can be a major disadvantage. It was just a coincidence. And when random things tend to be in your favour you call it luck, and
when a random thing is to your disadvantage you call it bad luck. Maybe the fact that the random thing is a dragon this time, makes your mind you crazy with significane, because you know
it's a dragon. If it was a ladybug helping them escape in some coincidental way, you might not have even thought about it.

I don't think I get why you seek so much reason behind all of this?

Because Kulp being unable to get them out of the warren using his magic was really stressed at that point in the book. Then, out of the blue a dragon comes in and saves the day. The point is not that it's a dragon but how just how random it was. Had it been one incident it wouldn't be a big deal I guess but this seems to be a theme in the book.

Ah you mean with the Trygalle merchants, the Kundryll and the other things you mentioned before? Like there are too many favourable coincidences? It has been a time for me, but I think if you would list every favourable and unfavourable thing, they pretty much even out. The crazy mage being there could be one thing. But yeah, I can see why you are feeling that now.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

It's also important to keep in mind that much of the story, while edited a lot, was originally the spawn of Erikson and Esslemont playing tabletop RPG games. So, a lot of these things likely came down to dice rolls, which is why they may seem so random.

[Egwene]

...just like real life is pretty random a lot of the time...

And I for one, totally love the Trygalle turning up Would have loved a few more unexpected deliveries!

[Abyss]

Manderley, on 31 October 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

koehkont, on 31 October 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why would a dragon need a reason to travel? I mean people travel, animals travel, not all of them have an explicit reason, they just tend to do that. And this time it turned out to be in their
favour, but I can also imagine that stumbling upon a dragon can be a major disadvantage. It was just a coincidence. And when random things tend to be in your favour you call it luck, and
when a random thing is to your disadvantage you call it bad luck. Maybe the fact that the random thing is a dragon this time, makes your mind you crazy with significane, because you know
it's a dragon. If it was a ladybug helping them escape in some coincidental way, you might not have even thought about it.

I don't think I get why you seek so much reason behind all of this?

Because Kulp being unable to get them out of the warren using his magic was really stressed at that point in the book. Then, out of the blue a dragon comes in and saves the day. The point is not that it's a dragon but how just how random it was. Had it been one incident it wouldn't be a big deal I guess but this seems to be a theme in the book.

It wasn't random
Kulp was actively looking to hitch a ride with something powerful enough to carry them out of the flooded warren. He found the dragon because it was travelling thru the warren and left a huge 'wake'.

[Caira]

I don't think DG was easier to read than GOTM, but was far more better. I really liked GOTM for the fully-constructed world, story, concepts (e.g. magic) and characters; however, the themes in DG - war and its cruelty, severity and hopelessness were even more captivating and last in my mind after finishing DG. Also, characters in DG are better developed and complex, some dealing with with tragic choices (Coltaine, Felisin), and it's also a great plus of the novel.
Maybe it is as somebody said - there are readers who don't feel satisfied if the world and circumstances are not fully explained at the beginning and others who like or don't mind being just thrown in the middle of the story (like me), as long as the incertain information may be explained in the future (and are not inconsistent).
And death of Coltaine for me was a scene with really emotional impact. I think in the last +/- ten years I didn't read anything with left me so touched - and one of the reasons is, in my opinion, the way in which Coltaine is described. No chapter in which he would be shown from the first perspective, not many dialogues, but every one well-written and letting to know better the character. He was a developed character. A person believing that a man is described by actions, not reputation (I can't find this quote in English, but there is a scene when Coltaine says something similar) which is in fact described by his actions.