[Dangerous]

Usual story: finished, loved it, thought the last two books were a bit of a step down but still an amazing read from start to finish. I know there are a lot of unanswered questions at the end of the tale that might be answered in the future, or never or whatever. that's OK, I don't mind that. I just want to ask a couple of questions that make no sense to me within the context of the tale we've been given:

1. Why didn't the Malazans/Letherii just sail round the continent like the Grey Helms/Felast? I know the journey through the wastelands made them tougher and more determined, but they lost a lot of soldiers, nearly mutinied, and almost never made it. Surely it would make more sense strategically to sail round on the relative comfort of the ships. I know they burnt a hell of a lot of their ships when they arrived in Lether, but Lether had ships. It seems like most of the journey through the wastelands could easily have been avoided.

2. Forgive me I don't have my book to hand, but near the start Cotillion is discussing things in his usual cryptic way (I think with Edgewalker but it might be Shadowthrone) and he says even if they succeed, people will think they failed. Well, it looks to me like they succeed in the their plan (get rid of Kamisod, keep the warrens), and are in a pretty good position to take on the rest of the Gods. They won. in what way does it look like they fail?

speaking of which, didn't the ending seem almost a little too... happy? yeah there was tragedy, Stormy and Gesler went out like champs. but hardly any of the Marines died. Almost all the main ones survived. The battle at the end was immense but the losses taken in that dsesparte last stand didn't seem nearly as devastating as previous battles. Also, Bottle was built up to be this amazing new Quick Ben and he did nothing in the last two books, but that's just a minor gripe. Away from that, The Adjunct, Lostara, Brys, hell even Blistig all make it through. The only realy casualites in their last battle are regulars you meet in the battle. I can't believe I'm saying it after the sometimes slog of the last two books, but the ending seemed a little rushed.

3. The Watch. Where did he come from? I know Erikson likes to mess about with genre norms, so I was wondering if he was some sort of take on a "chosen one with his amazing magical sword". But if that was the case, I'm not sure what point he was making apart from "here is a chosen one with an amazing magical sword". He appeared out of nowhere, did amazing things and died without offering an explanation. There are a lot of characters like this in the books but this one stuck out to me as there was nothing to explain why he is so nails. You might say read Forge of Darkness. Fine, I will, but that hadn't been written yet when this book came out.

I think that's all for now. I finished it a couple of months ago so I can't remember if I had any other questions. Thanks!

[Abyss]

Dangerous, on 30 October 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

...
1. Why didn't the Malazans/Letherii just sail round the continent like the Grey Helms/Felast? I know the journey through the wastelands made them tougher and more determined, but they lost a lot of soldiers, nearly mutinied, and almost never made it. Surely it would make more sense strategically to sail round on the relative comfort of the ships. I know they burnt a hell of a lot of their ships when they arrived in Lether, but Lether had ships. It seems like most of the journey through the wastelands could easily have been avoided.

The Grey Helms betrayed them, so splitting the forces was a wise move. Tactically, i vaguely recall the idea was just to have more than one front to the attack, but underlying it i'm pretty sure was Tavore's suspicions.
Felast was coming from a whole different direction.

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2. Forgive me I don't have my book to hand, but near the start Cotillion is discussing things in his usual cryptic way (I think with Edgewalker but it might be Shadowthrone) and he says even if they succeed, people will think they failed. Well, it looks to me like they succeed in the their plan (get rid of Kamisod, keep the warrens), and are in a pretty good position to take on the rest of the Gods. They won. in what way does it look like they fail?

Notionally they killed the guy they set out to rescue, even tho it's more complicated than that.
They also denied the rest of the gods access to the power, which in theory ST/Cots were also using as far as the other gods knew.

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speaking of which, didn't the ending seem almost a little too... happy? yeah there was tragedy, Stormy and Gesler went out like champs. but hardly any of the Marines died. Almost all the main ones survived. The battle at the end was immense but the losses taken in that dsesparte last stand didn't seem nearly as devastating as previous battles. Also, Bottle was built up to be this amazing new Quick Ben and he did nothing in the last two books, but that's just a minor gripe. Away from that, The Adjunct, Lostara, Brys, hell even Blistig all make it through. The only realy casualites in their last battle are regulars you meet in the battle. I can't believe I'm saying it after the sometimes slog of the last two books, but the ending seemed a little rushed.

Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Heretic.

Step closer to the window and stop moving so much, would you please?


But Stormy and Gesler still died, so did a pile of Imass and marines. Bottle was nearly ruined during the battle with the Nahruk, and the others were all fairly skilled, powerful or lucky. I hear you on the relatively low death toll for pov characters, but i didn't see that as a negative esp when most of them were far more than ordinary.

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3. The Watch. Where did he come from? I know Erikson likes to mess about with genre norms, so I was wondering if he was some sort of take on a "chosen one with his amazing magical sword". But if that was the case, I'm not sure what point he was making apart from "here is a chosen one with an amazing magical sword". He appeared out of nowhere, did amazing things and died without offering an explanation. There are a lot of characters like this in the books but this one stuck out to me as there was nothing to explain why he is so nails. You might say read Forge of Darkness. Fine, I will, but that hadn't been written yet when this book came out.

Now sure what you mean... the Watch first showed up back in RG. He's got Royal Blood mojo that makes him effectively an ascendent, and he's a damn good warrior. He found the sword but was a badass before that.
If you mean that he came out of nowhere back in RG, i suppose i'd say we just hadn't gotten to that part of the story yet, no more than we knew of the Seguleh before MoI.

[Andorion]

1. Regarding going by the sea-route: The FA had mustered huge armies plus the Pures were extremely formidable opponents themselves. If the entire force had gone by sea, then the FA would have been able to mount a single unified defence. An amphibious operation is always tricky and they would have been trying to build a bridgehead on a hostile shore against overwhelming superiority.

At the end of TCG the Adjunct had more forces than she could have imagined her original Bonehunters, the Grey Helms who finally turned, the Bolkando, the Gilk Barghast, the Kchain Chemalle, the Letherii, the Imass, the Jaghut, and Paran's Host. Most of these were unforeseen, And even then their victory was a close cut thing, The FA army was split, with two armies being taken out by Paran, one army going to take the marines, one fighting Tavore, and the rest around the Spire. And still they came close to winning.

When Tavore was planning the invasion, she could have only counted on the Bonehunters, the Khundryl and the Grey Helms, maybe the Letherii. A good commander expects the worst. She could never have put all her eggs in one basket.


2. Different people define success differently. To the Gods, success might have been stealing Kaminsods power


If you don't like a happy ending, thats your opinion. But you are way off the mark with Bottle. Did you read what he did in the Nah'ruk battle? he possessed creature after creature, using them to fight and throw the entire aerial element into confusion. How do you think he survived? Reread that scene where he wakes up.


And please define "main one'. Corabb and Cuttle died. Quite a lot of the marines and the heavies died.


3. The Watch is of the Shake. It is both a Role and person. Both he and his sister, Yan Tovis were of a royal bloodline that stretch back into Tiste Andii history. When Yan Tovis accepts her role as Queen of the Shake she inherited the power of the Royal line and so her blood opened the way to Kharkanas. Same for Yedan Derryg. The sword was a Hust blade, specially made to kill dragons. If you have read carefully, you will have noted Silchas Ruin also had one. So it is in no way some singular sword for a chosen one.


Both Hust Blades and the Shake are themes that are dealt with in far greater detail in the Kharkanas trilogy. Read Forge of Darkness.

[Dangerous]

thanks for responses folks.

Question 1 makes a lot more sense now. The other two I'm not convinced about. I reckon the Gods would have realized what those two were up to and would have realized they'd succeeded. But that's just how I decipher it I guess. As to Bottle, yeah but that was Dust of Dreams. I go the impression when he came back he's do something more. No biggie though, his story still made sense to me. Silchas got his Hust blade well after Yedan. It's not that I don't understand why he and his sword areso powerful, i just feel it's explanation isn't given enough detail. It seems like his race is a diluted ofshoot of the Tiste, but he seems to be much more competent a fighter than any Tiste we see (minus the obvious ones). Ok he's royal blood but so what. You could say the same about Nimander, more so as he's pure TA, but Yedan seems much more accomplished a fighter. But as you (and I) say, I'll just have to read FoD. Not yet though, I need a rest.

thanks!

[Andorion]

Dangerous, on 30 October 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

thanks for responses folks.

Question 1 makes a lot more sense now. The other two I'm not convinced about. I reckon the Gods would have realized what those two were up to and would have realized they'd succeeded. But that's just how I decipher it I guess. As to Bottle, yeah but that was Dust of Dreams. I go the impression when he came back he's do something more. No biggie though, his story still made sense to me. Silchas got his Hust blade well after Yedan. It's not that I don't understand why he and his sword areso powerful, i just feel it's explanation isn't given enough detail. It seems like his race is a diluted ofshoot of the Tiste, but he seems to be much more competent a fighter than any Tiste we see (minus the obvious ones). Ok he's royal blood but so what. You could say the same about Nimander, more so as he's pure TA, but Yedan seems much more accomplished a fighter. But as you (and I) say, I'll just have to read FoD. Not yet though, I need a rest.

thanks!

The point I was trying to make with the Hust Blade was that there were multiple blades, relics of a bygone age. Yedan Derryg did not pick up the one true sword, he followed a hunch and got lucky.

Do you remember Sandalath Drukorlats memory about a "Hust Legion"? Think on that.

How many Andii do we see fighting? Rake doesn't count,he ranks among the most powerful characters. Think back to MoI, where Korlat said that if the entire army of the Tiste Andii unleashed their power, the entire continent would be devastated. Think of Nimander and Co. who fought an entire town by themselves. The Tiste Andii angered are no joke, and the royal line means Yedans blood was far less diluted than the average Shake

[Itwæs Nom]

Andorion, on 30 October 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

Dangerous, on 30 October 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

thanks for responses folks.

Question 1 makes a lot more sense now. The other two I'm not convinced about. I reckon the Gods would have realized what those two were up to and would have realized they'd succeeded. But that's just how I decipher it I guess. As to Bottle, yeah but that was Dust of Dreams. I go the impression when he came back he's do something more. No biggie though, his story still made sense to me. Silchas got his Hust blade well after Yedan. It's not that I don't understand why he and his sword areso powerful, i just feel it's explanation isn't given enough detail. It seems like his race is a diluted ofshoot of the Tiste, but he seems to be much more competent a fighter than any Tiste we see (minus the obvious ones). Ok he's royal blood but so what. You could say the same about Nimander, more so as he's pure TA, but Yedan seems much more accomplished a fighter. But as you (and I) say, I'll just have to read FoD. Not yet though, I need a rest.

thanks!

The point I was trying to make with the Hust Blade was that there were multiple blades, relics of a bygone age. Yedan Derryg did not pick up the one true sword, he followed a hunch and got lucky.

Do you remember Sandalath Drukorlats memory about a "Hust Legion"? Think on that.

How many Andii do we see fighting? Rake doesn't count,he ranks among the most powerful characters. Think back to MoI, where Korlat said that if the entire army of the Tiste Andii unleashed their power, the entire continent would be devastated. Think of Nimander and Co. who fought an entire town by themselves. The Tiste Andii angered are no joke, and the royal line means Yedans blood was far less diluted than the average Shake

havent read FoD, but I think Royal Blood goes beyond regular Andii warriors. There was also comment from Lisoans' side that its not whole Hust legion fighting on the other side as they assumed from all the dragons dying, but only one man.

edit: oh I didnt notice Dangs post. I just repeated what he said about that, sorry

This post has been edited by Charlie Nom: 30 October 2015 - 05:31 PM

[Abyss]

Dangerous, on 30 October 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

thanks for responses folks.

Question 1 makes a lot more sense now. The other two I'm not convinced about. I reckon the Gods would have realized what those two were up to and would have realized they'd succeeded. But that's just how I decipher it I guess.

It's fuzzy, but keep in mind that a number of gods were actually onside with ST/Cots, and not all of them were necessarily aware of the endgame plan to free Kaminsod, much less by 'killing' him.

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As to Bottle, yeah but that was Dust of Dreams. I go the impression when he came back he's do something more. No biggie though, his story still made sense to me.

Not everyone gets upgraded by their experiences.
I actually liked that unlike the majority of characters put thru the wringer, who either died or got massively upgraded, Bottle was seriously injured by his experiences.
And he was never set up to be the next QB, there were just some similarities there in terms of multiple warrens, flexibility and a tendency to stay below radar. Bottle was never at QB's power level, tho arguably he was close in skill in some areas.

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Silchas got his Hust blade well after Yedan.

Maybe i'm misremembering this, but didn't Yedan recover Silch's old Hust blade?

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It's not that I don't understand why he and his sword areso powerful, i just feel it's explanation isn't given enough detail. It seems like his race is a diluted ofshoot of the Tiste, but he seems to be much more competent a fighter than any Tiste we see (minus the obvious ones).

Just based on the books from their intro in RG onwards, there's more to the Shake than you're assuming. Someone notes their bloodlines include multiple Tiste and a hint of KC... you assume that's wekaness where it could be strength.
There's also history there that's hinted at but not revealed. RAFO to FoD.

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Ok he's royal blood but so what.

So he's powerful, that's what.
I get that you're not satisfied with the explanation, and i agree it sort of comes out of nowhere... one minute he's a mostly ignored guard commander with a weird incestuous relationship with his 'sister', the next he's killing multiple FA and Liosan, then moving on to dragons and Hounds, but the point is that he was always there, we just hadn't seen him before. That's a common thing in these books, buildling on the notion that there is much more going on that just the story you're reading about.

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You could say the same about Nimander, more so as he's pure TA, but Yedan seems much more accomplished a fighter....

Nimander never was pure Andii. He was draconic from birth, he just hadn't actively drawn on it. In theory that would make him baseline stronger/faster/more powerful than a 'normal' pure Andii.

Anyrate, Yedan had three things going on... he was a better than normal swordsman (which at root is just skill), he had the royal blood thing that he downplayed until it became life or death but that put him at ascendant level strength speed etc, and he found a Hust blade that could cut through pretty much anyone. It wasn't a complete 'out of nowhere' imnsho.

[Puck]

As Abyss points out, Yedan probably started out as a damn good swordsman, we just never see it until he fights the FA in DoD (I think it was DoD), which is still way before he finds the Hust Sword. He is the Watch and served in the military, so presumably he's had the appropriate training and talent, whether that comes with the blood line or simply just happens to be there. Then he picks up Silchas' old sword, which is MADE for killing dragons, and Yan Tovis even notes how picking up the sword changes him - suddenly all he sees are dragons he needs to kill. What follows from that is that the sword also influences him, because the sword cares only about killing shit. By the end, he can barely stand. The Yedan from RG would probably think twice about what to do, but the one from tCG keeps going anyway, because the sword wants to kill shit. There's also the adrenaline from the battle, which influences everyone involved.

Basically, a lot of things come together, it's not like he shows up out of nowhere with awesome sword skillz.

[chavez]

• Sorry for the imperfect English… I have some questions after reading in the original series (I’m Italian)
  1.reading TCG came to my mind when in the sixth book Heboric is killed by the Seven Dead Fires … why? Heboric served to free the Crippled God, the Seven are on the side of the Crippled God … then?
  2.Now Ublala Pung is the new companion of Icarium?
  3.The only purpose Draconus was kill Kilamdaros and Secul Lath?
  4. Why Gruntle (or rather Trake) wanted to prevent the release of Eleint? And why Kilava instead wanted the liberation of Eleint?
  5. I did not understand the part about T’iam … was materializing? Why? As? From where?
  6. What happened at Sandalath and Withal?
  7.Fener is back to being a god (if only briefly) because of the prayers of Gesler and Stormy?
  8.All part of the Snake have not well framed in terms of purpose in the plot…
  9. What will Dassem \ Dessembrae? Do you see them again in Toblakai Trilogy?
  
  Thanks in advance to those who will answer

[Andorion]

chavez, on 11 December 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

• Sorry for the imperfect English… I have some questions after reading in the original series (I'm Italian)
  1.reading TCG came to my mind when in the sixth book Heboric is killed by the Seven Dead Fires … why? Heboric served to free the Crippled God, the Seven are on the side of the Crippled God … then?
  2.Now Ublala Pung is the new companion of Icarium?
  3.The only purpose Draconus was kill Kilamdaros and Secul Lath?
  4. Why Gruntle (or rather Trake) wanted to prevent the release of Eleint? And why Kilava instead wanted the liberation of Eleint?
  5. I did not understand the part about T'iam … was materializing? Why? As? From where?
  6. What happened at Sandalath and Withal?
  7.Fener is back to being a god (if only briefly) because of the prayers of Gesler and Stormy?
  8.All part of the Snake have not well framed in terms of purpose in the plot…
  9. What will Dassem \ Dessembrae? Do you see them again in Toblakai Trilogy?
  
  Thanks in advance to those who will answer

Answering from memory

1. Seven Fires.. you mean the Imass right?
2. Yup, Ublala is the new companion.
3. Draconus was imprisoned within Dragnipur for thousands of years. After he came back he detected the plots of his fellow Elders and punished them for it. He is now free. What he will do remains to be seen.
5. T'iam is the mother of all dragons. That means she is no longer just a dragon, but a manifestation of all dragons united. This of course is a guess made based on given info. More will probably be learnt in the Kharkanas books.
6.Sandalath's fate is really sad. She never eally breaks out of the memories which captured her while on the throne. She ran away to her old hostage quarters. Her past will be outlined more in the Kharkanas books. Withal probably joined the Andii and the Shake on the First Shore.
8. The role of the Snake was quite large. First it demonstrated the cruelty of the Forkrul Assail and what it had done to the people of Kolanse, Secondly it showed that magic manifests in the most unlikely places like in the songs of the Snake. Thirdly it introduced the semi-dead Assail god which was the key to winning the final battle.
9. For Dassem, read the books of Ian Cameron Esslemont - Novels of the Malazan Empire.

[chavez]

Thank you...yes, I mean the Imass

[Gorefest]

Regarding your first question: why do you think that Heboric at that point in time was trying to free the Crippled God or why the Crippled God would even think or suspect such a thing? When the Unbound killed Heboric, he was the destriant of Trake/Treach. Trake was not in any alliance with the Crippled God. The Crippled God needed Felisin Younger to reinvigorate his whirlwind cult. The T'Lan Imass killed Heboric because they considered him the biggest threat in their attempt to kidnap Felisin Younger. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 15 December 2015 - 03:16 PM

[chavez]

Gorefest, on 15 December 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Regarding your first question: why do you think that Heboric at that point in time was trying to free the Crippled God or why the Crippled God would even think or suspect such a thing? When the Unbound killed Heboric, he was the destriant of Trake/Treach. Trake was not in any alliance with the Crippled God. The Crippled God needed Felisin Younger to reinvigorate his whirlwind cult. The T'Lan Imass killed Heboric because they considered him the biggest threat in their attempt to kidnap Felisin Younger. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You're right, now I understand .Thanks so much

[Kanese S's]

Poor Sandalath. :'(

[Mott Heavy]

What is the significance of Hedge being the leper in chains, and why is Fiddler "so sorry" about it? What about fool? cripple? Actually, what is the significance of any of the positions in any of the houses.


Was there a point to Ublala finding that awesome armor?

[worry]

Maybe because Fiddler has been keeping Hedge at arm's length, avoiding him, the way people unfairly treat lepers.

And the significance of the armor might be foreshadowing for the Karsa trilogy and/or aftshadowing the Kharkanas trilogy.