[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 03 May 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

I am def on the Tyrion=Targ train. Have been for a while. I believe we have had this conversation before, but I just can't wrap my head around the opinion that it ruins his character arc. Tywin was his father, whether by blood or not, just as Ned was Jon's father. Any adopted child could tell you how this works. Tyrion took after Tywin in certain aspects of his personality because he was comparably intelligent and raised by Tywin. And it's not so bad for Tyrion to escape the Kinslayer title on a technicality. (Though Tywin is technically his mother's cousin and still kin.)

^^This. I don't get how it would ruin him either. It's actually a lovely character progression.

Terez, on 03 May 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

I thought her quiet "please" at the end was to show that she was basically in the same spot as Thoros was when Beric was resurrected. Desperate, and all out of faith. She said it herself: Thoros shouldn't have been able to do what he did because of the kind of priest he was (not a good one). But maybe the resurrection power is different from the powers Melisandre has displayed so far. Maybe R'hllor's magic can be either good or evil, depending on the circumstances.

I agree with this viewpoint as well.

Melisandre is pretty broken and her belief is flagging. She is pretty much the same as Thoros was when he explained his resurrection of Beric, she just came to it from devout faith into disbelief (only to, I assume, have it restored with Jon's resurrection), while Thoros was not a believer at all, and his desire to not see his friend dead allowed the god to answer his wish and turn him into a believer. But it surely felt like a mirror image of that progression to me when I watched it. Different paths, same result.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 03 May 2016 - 01:20 PM

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 03 May 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

I agree with this viewpoint as well.

Melisandre is pretty broken and her belief is flagging. She is pretty much the same as Thoros was when he explained his resurrection of Beric, she just came to it from devout faith into disbelief (only to, I assume, have it restored with Jon's resurrection), while Thoros was not a believer at all, and his desire to not see his friend dead allowed the god to answer his wish and turn him into a believer. But it surely felt like a mirror image of that progression to me when I watched it. Different paths, same result.

Which makes you wonder if it is not the lord of light who is answering ....

[Gorefest]

There probably aren't any gods anyway, it's likely ritualised need. And when the need is great enough, the magic will flow through the adept with or without the necessary ritual.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Is Tyrion a Targaryen?.gif" />

I think Tyrion is indeed a Targ (mother raped by the Mad King Aerys II, making him Dany's half-brother). As is Jon (son of Rhaegar, and thus Dany's nephew even though they are of an age).

So I feel like the three dragons will be rode into battle against the White Walkers by Dany, Jon, and Tyrion respectively.

Oh, and it sounds like the dialogue between Balon and Euron indicated that the dragonhorn will be in his possession, as they spoke about him being in Old Valyria when he went slightly mad at sea.

I had actually thought of the Tyrion idea last year when I read A World of Ice and Fire and noted how Aerys visits the Lannisters the year before Tyrions birth.

This should be cool. I am ambivalent about the Ironborn storyline. I didn't find them very interesting in the books or in the show. In fact I found Euron a bit annoying and possible overhyped.

Since the Targ's are the dragonriders, it makes sense to have a 3rd secret Targ (beyond Jon) kicking around and Tyrion has always been my goto on that front. Especially because people always talk about Tywin hating him becuase he was a dwarf from his loins...and I always felt that Tywin knows that Tyrion is really Aerys II's and hates him for that fact, and doesn't let on to the world because it would have entirely spoiled the Lannister image he had crafted. Like if your supposed son is a midget born of a rape, why would you not say that out loud so that people know that he's not REALLY yours, but you raised him anyways...instead I think Tywin was just vain enough to not want such a thing to be made public, so he sucked it up and kept the secret.

Unless he didn't know...which I doubt.

But yeah, if not Tyrion as the 3rd Targ, then who?

I believe GRRM is on record himself saying that a dragon rider does NOT have to be a Targ.

I think fans might overdo speculation when it comes to everyone being Targs. Jon Snow made sense as it was so broadly hinted and is likely to be a key plot point. But there is a point in both books and show where I think they would verge on self-parody (like Jack Bauer being 'reinstated on a provisional basis') to have all these reveals of secret Targaryen parentage. Trying to remember if the show version even had the whole Dragon must have 3 heads line.

I kind of expect Bran to warg a dragon at some point, but that does not mean there won't be 3 riders. But I'd be fairly surprised if the show bothered with Tyrion the Targ. They haven't really set it up. I mean, they could quick fix it, because Varys is there, and it explains his interest in Tyrion, so someone could tell him. But I doubt they will find it necessary.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 03 May 2016 - 03:57 PM

[QuickTidal]

I'll post back here with a hat for you to eat when they reveal Tyrion is a Targ. Or a candelabra.

[amphibian]

I was expecting some sort of key to true dragon control to be found at Vaes Dothrak by Dany. Doubt that happens with the teaser scene shown.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 03 May 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

I'll post back here with a hat for you to eat when they reveal Tyrion is a Targ. Or a candelabra.

A candelabra to eat, or Tyrion is a candelabra?

[Andorion]

Actually it is canon that dragonriders don't have to be Targs. In A World of Ice and Fire, in the Targ civil wars several successful riders were non targs, one may have been non noble.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 03 May 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 May 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

I'll post back here with a hat for you to eat when they reveal Tyrion is a Targ. Or a candelabra.

A candelabra to eat, or Tyrion is a candelabra?

You pick.

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 03 May 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Actually it is canon that dragonriders don't have to be Targs. In A World of Ice and Fire, in the Targ civil wars several successful riders were non targs, one may have been non noble.

Several riders in the short story about the last big dragon kerfuffle were not noble.

In the Princess and the Queen story about Rhaenys and Alicent, there are three non noble dragonriders - Nettles, Hugh the Hammer, and Ulf the White.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 03 May 2016 - 05:31 PM

[QuickTidal]

I stand corrected on the Targs are the only Dragonriders thing.

It doesn't change that I think Tyrion is a Targ though.

[Terez]

Werthead, on 03 May 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

Quote

Either way, Beric's resurrection was cheap. No particular death to pay for his life, or anything like that, though I guess you could argue his resurrections were paid for by the blood shed by Gregor and his lot.

But what came back wasn't Beric. It was a shadow of Beric, and with each resurrection he fades even further until what's left barely remembers being human.

I'm assuming they're not going that route with Jon.

They probably are, since they spelled it out in the show, if I recall. But Jon has only been resurrected once, and might not have to be resurrected again. Beric had been resurrected like 9 times at that point, and only at that point was he truly a shadow of his former self. The first time, he only lost a small piece, and it's probably not entirely correct to say he 'wasn't Beric' at that point.

It's true that GRRM said dragonriders don't have to be Targaryens, but it's also true that wargs don't have to be Starks. The Targaryen blood probably carries an affinity for dragons.

[worry]

Gonna go on record and say the burning of Shireen was the best decision the writers made last season. It underscored in the ultimate way how Stannis conflated his personal ambitions with his sense of "duty", and how that drove him to true rock bottom. In addition, the sacrifice actually worked: the freeze was broken. But it also broke his army, leading to their defeat and his downfall. It absolutely, 100% served show-Stannis's progression (or degression rather) and exposed the decay of his once-true honor.

[worry]

Do the dragonriders have to be Valyrian?

[Terez]

I imagine it's the same as GRRM said about Targaryens. You don't have to be Valyrian to ride a dragon, but there is probably a racial affinity.

[amphibian]

Nettles had brown skin, so it's not only a white person thing too.

Suspect there may be ice dragons too, but maybe super rare/few in number.

[Andorion]

So, apart from the obvious ToJ deaths, any other death predictions for episode 3?

Also does anyone else think that if Drogon kicks ass in Vaes Dothrak by episodes 4/5, we could have Dany with a full Khalasaar in Meeren and ready to set sail by end of season?

[Terez]

Andorion, on 04 May 2016 - 02:13 AM, said:

So, apart from the obvious ToJ deaths, any other death predictions for episode 3?

That pale-faced thing phib mentioned a while back after ep 1. I think he singled out Melisandre, Alliser Thorne, and Ramsey. I dunno if that's actually a thing, but I noticed in that episode that Cersei is really pale too. I could see all 4 of these dying this season, but I don't think Ramsey or Cersei will happen until the end of the season. Cersei maybe not until next season. The prophecy makes me think Tommen will die before she does, but if the Hound/Valonqar theory turns out to be correct, maybe Sandor will kill Cersei in order to avoid having to fight his brother. (I'm personally attached to Jaime=Valonqar.)

Alliser could go out by execution next week. Melisandre, I wonder. I still expect a Nissa Nissa parallel, but I don't know if we should expect it so soon. But she was the person I was wondering about when phib brought up the makeup thing. The scene showing her age in the premiere seems like the kind of thing you reveal before a character dies. That said, she could be useful to Jon in upcoming episodes, and he might feel some kind of debt to her for his resurrection. I really don't know what to think.

PS: Dunno why I glossed over the bit about Drogon. I still think Drogon might be Jon's dragon. Tyrion freeing the other two opens up the opportunity for her to be rescued by one of them.

This post has been edited by Terez: 04 May 2016 - 02:39 AM

[amphibian]

Well, Roose was looking colorful and he got gutted. So I am not sure that color scheme holds up. It is kinda weird to look at them be that pale for some reason.

[Terez]

Nevertheless, I suspect Alliser Thorne's death is coming soon, and perhaps as early as next week. I can't imagine anyone else important who could die so soon. I wonder if Jon will show Olly mercy. I will be extremely disappointed if he shows Thorne mercy, though. Not only was he the ringleader, he has a grudge that will never die. He's dangerous, and always will be.