[QuickTidal]

I'm saddened by the news that economic migrants are using the fleeing Syrian migrants as cover to jump the line they were in "as it were" and fake being Syrian. So not only do we have real Syrian refugees to sort through and help, but now there are a bunch of educated line jumpers who want to flout the crisis to their own ends to get past the bureaucratic channels they are mean to use. Apparently discarded documents near the Serbian border have discovered this.

What a goddamned mess this whole thing is.

[EmperorMagus]

QuickTidal, on 09 September 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

I'm saddened by the news that economic migrants are using the fleeing Syrian migrants as cover to jump the line they were in "as it were" and fake being Syrian. So not only do we have real Syrian refugees to sort through and help, but now there are a bunch of educated line jumpers who want to flout the crisis to their own ends to get past the bureaucratic channels they are mean to use. Apparently discarded documents near the Serbian border have discovered this.

What a goddamned mess this whole thing is.

Do you have a source for that? I haven't noticed anything in the news I follow.
CBC mentioned today why there are so many young men among the refugees. The men are afraid of conscription by both sides and hope to bring their families to them once they get to a better place.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Mezla PigDog, on 09 September 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

The UK government is really pissing me off over the refugee crisis. Public opinion shifted after the photos of the little boy on the beach (although public opinion can fuck off too, they voted the current lot of shit bags in) and there was a hotly anticipated speech by the Prime Minister to announce new measures and how many refugees we would take. Firstly the number is 20,000 over 5 years and only from refugee camps near Turkey as he doesn't want to encourage dangerous sea crossings - so no help for the immediate problem then. Secondly that detail was a small part of a larger speech he merged with what we are doing in Syria to counter terrorism within the UK - apparently they are the same problem. No talk of the fact Assad is just as bad as ISIS (don't want to annoy the Russians or Chinese who spend so much money in London). He announced that the government authorised drone strikes on UK citizens in ISIS. Now the media is obsessed with that and all the momentum about the refugees has been completely lost.

It's so demoralising. Such an "I'm alright Jack" attitude, screw people with nothing as I'd hate to have to wait longer for an appointment at the dentist. Especially when you read interviews with so many of the refugees who are educated professional people or students. There isn't even a sane economic argument against them. We have a shortage of doctors and teachers in this country but of course we don't want a terrorist slipping through the net. It's such a lame excuse. I gave a load of money to charities to assuage my impotence.

As for so many of the refugees being groups of young men - it's not really surprising. They are the most free to drop everything and leave. A lot of men have left families in refugee camps and hope to survive the sea crossing to claim asylum in Europe and then bring their families over by safe means. As a woman I'd be terrified to just strike out and not know what was waiting for me, we all know what the world does to vulnerable women and children. You can see why they would stay in refugee camps.

I agree. It's been entirely depressing to watch.

A small niggle of mine with the British media is that they don't seem to understand that migrant and refugee are not the same thing, and therefore not interchangeable. But hey, why bother with accuracy when you can court the opinion of the thoughtless instead?

[QuickTidal]

EmperorMagus, on 10 September 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 09 September 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

I'm saddened by the news that economic migrants are using the fleeing Syrian migrants as cover to jump the line they were in "as it were" and fake being Syrian. So not only do we have real Syrian refugees to sort through and help, but now there are a bunch of educated line jumpers who want to flout the crisis to their own ends to get past the bureaucratic channels they are mean to use. Apparently discarded documents near the Serbian border have discovered this.

What a goddamned mess this whole thing is.

Do you have a source for that? I haven't noticed anything in the news I follow.
CBC mentioned today why there are so many young men among the refugees. The men are afraid of conscription by both sides and hope to bring their families to them once they get to a better place.

Here's the first link that I saw it at.

http://www.express.c...m-asylum-Europe

[Maark Abbott]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 10 September 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 09 September 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

The UK government is really pissing me off over the refugee crisis. Public opinion shifted after the photos of the little boy on the beach (although public opinion can fuck off too, they voted the current lot of shit bags in) and there was a hotly anticipated speech by the Prime Minister to announce new measures and how many refugees we would take. Firstly the number is 20,000 over 5 years and only from refugee camps near Turkey as he doesn't want to encourage dangerous sea crossings - so no help for the immediate problem then. Secondly that detail was a small part of a larger speech he merged with what we are doing in Syria to counter terrorism within the UK - apparently they are the same problem. No talk of the fact Assad is just as bad as ISIS (don't want to annoy the Russians or Chinese who spend so much money in London). He announced that the government authorised drone strikes on UK citizens in ISIS. Now the media is obsessed with that and all the momentum about the refugees has been completely lost.

It's so demoralising. Such an "I'm alright Jack" attitude, screw people with nothing as I'd hate to have to wait longer for an appointment at the dentist. Especially when you read interviews with so many of the refugees who are educated professional people or students. There isn't even a sane economic argument against them. We have a shortage of doctors and teachers in this country but of course we don't want a terrorist slipping through the net. It's such a lame excuse. I gave a load of money to charities to assuage my impotence.

As for so many of the refugees being groups of young men - it's not really surprising. They are the most free to drop everything and leave. A lot of men have left families in refugee camps and hope to survive the sea crossing to claim asylum in Europe and then bring their families over by safe means. As a woman I'd be terrified to just strike out and not know what was waiting for me, we all know what the world does to vulnerable women and children. You can see why they would stay in refugee camps.

I agree. It's been entirely depressing to watch.

A small niggle of mine with the British media is that they don't seem to understand that migrant and refugee are not the same thing, and therefore not interchangeable. But hey, why bother with accuracy when you can court the opinion of the thoughtless instead?

I don't know if it's the media itself, more the people who own it having a certain agenda that they want to push onto Johnny Public.

[EmperorMagus]

QuickTidal, on 10 September 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 10 September 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 09 September 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

I'm saddened by the news that economic migrants are using the fleeing Syrian migrants as cover to jump the line they were in "as it were" and fake being Syrian. So not only do we have real Syrian refugees to sort through and help, but now there are a bunch of educated line jumpers who want to flout the crisis to their own ends to get past the bureaucratic channels they are mean to use. Apparently discarded documents near the Serbian border have discovered this.

What a goddamned mess this whole thing is.

Do you have a source for that? I haven't noticed anything in the news I follow.
CBC mentioned today why there are so many young men among the refugees. The men are afraid of conscription by both sides and hope to bring their families to them once they get to a better place.

Here's the first link that I saw it at.

http://www.express.c...m-asylum-Europe

An article without a single reliable source and no logic whatsoever published in a tabloid that finances UKIP.
I wouldn't trust it much.

Edit: If I don't see a piece of news in any of the bigger news outlets like Guardian,HuffPost (kinda? not too reliable), CBC, BBC (whom I don't like tbh, I feel like they are the British version of the Russian propaganda tv channels), or globe&mail I wouldn't trust it; unless it's by a reliable reporter or extremely well cited.

This post has been edited by EmperorMagus: 10 September 2015 - 10:38 AM

[Puck]

^I tend to agree. Not that I doubt this kind of thing is happening, it certainly is, because people are people. But I generally distrust so called news outlets that are out to shock and do not cite their sources.

[QuickTidal]

I am not from the UK and don't know what's considered a mistrustable "rag" and what isn't. But then I don't put full stock in ANYTHING I read from any news outlet. Though if you google it, there is more than just the Express posting about it.

But like Puck says, it is probably happening. We just don't know in what numbers.

Quite frankly, I don't trust humans enough for it to NOT be happening. People are shitty. And shitty people would do stuff like this.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

QuickTidal, on 10 September 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

I am not from the UK and don't know what's considered a mistrustable "rag" and what isn't. But then I don't put full stock in ANYTHING I read from any news outlet. Though if you google it, there is more than just the Express posting about it.

But like Puck says, it is probably happening. We just don't know in what numbers.

Quite frankly, I don't trust humans enough for it to NOT be happening. People are shitty. And shitty people would do stuff like this.

When considering UK media, all the papers have something of an agenda but the ones to particularly avoid are the Daily Mail and the Express, and the cheaper rags like the Sun and the Mirror. You have to take everything with some critical thought with any of the others, like any news site I guess!

[Gothos]

I... I think Martin Schulz just about crossed any line there is to cross. Threathening with the use of force? Seriously? This man should be fired and get an EU-wide ban on any official post for life before the sun goes down.

(In case your media don't give a shit, the head of the European Parliament, Martin Shulz, has said today that if countries do not accept refugee quotas, force should be used to make them. The Visegrád Group has recently rejected proposed quotas.)

This kind of rhetoric will only make us oppose the idea more. Good Job, EP Leader! Go fuck yourself with a stuffed hamster.

[Maark Abbott]

Gothos, on 11 September 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

I... I think Martin Schulz just about crossed any line there is to cross. Threathening with the use of force? Seriously? This man should be fired and get an EU-wide ban on any official post for life before the sun goes down.

(In case your media don't give a shit, the head of the European Parliament, Martin Shulz, has said today that if countries do not accept refugee quotas, force should be used to make them. The Visegrád Group has recently rejected proposed quotas.)

This kind of rhetoric will only make us oppose the idea more. Good Job, EP Leader! Go fuck yourself with a stuffed hamster.

Because threatening the bald thugs that make up the extreme right (at least in Blighty) with the use of force will DEFINITELY maintain the peace.

What a bellcock.

[Gothos]

Maark, on 11 September 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Gothos, on 11 September 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

I... I think Martin Schulz just about crossed any line there is to cross. Threathening with the use of force? Seriously? This man should be fired and get an EU-wide ban on any official post for life before the sun goes down.

(In case your media don't give a shit, the head of the European Parliament, Martin Shulz, has said today that if countries do not accept refugee quotas, force should be used to make them. The Visegrád Group has recently rejected proposed quotas.)

This kind of rhetoric will only make us oppose the idea more. Good Job, EP Leader! Go fuck yourself with a stuffed hamster.

Because threatening the bald thugs that make up the extreme right (at least in Blighty) with the use of force will DEFINITELY maintain the peace.

What a bellcock.

Tell you what, a German of all people thrathening us is not going to sit well. They keep this up, this may have more to do with our refusal than anything having to do with the refugees and migrant themselves. They keep pushing, think we'll just say no for defiance.

[Maark Abbott]

Gothos, on 11 September 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

Maark, on 11 September 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Gothos, on 11 September 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

I... I think Martin Schulz just about crossed any line there is to cross. Threathening with the use of force? Seriously? This man should be fired and get an EU-wide ban on any official post for life before the sun goes down.

(In case your media don't give a shit, the head of the European Parliament, Martin Shulz, has said today that if countries do not accept refugee quotas, force should be used to make them. The Visegrád Group has recently rejected proposed quotas.)

This kind of rhetoric will only make us oppose the idea more. Good Job, EP Leader! Go fuck yourself with a stuffed hamster.

Because threatening the bald thugs that make up the extreme right (at least in Blighty) with the use of force will DEFINITELY maintain the peace.

What a bellcock.

Tell you what, a German of all people thrathening us is not going to sit well. They keep this up, this may have more to do with our refusal than anything having to do with the refugees and migrant themselves. They keep pushing, think we'll just say no for defiance.

You're Polsk, right? Like you say, I can't see it sitting well at all with us; you guys have more reason to be pissed about it. Yeesh.

[Khellendros]

Having once, in what now feels like an entirely different life, been a refugee myself, I can say with some authority that it's not a fun experience, or one that is willingly attempted unless you truly feel there is no other choice. And I was only a kid, I can't even imagine how harrowing it must have been for my parents. They are desperate, scared people, and ones who know that even if they get to the country of their choice (of course, if they really had a full and complete choice, they would have chosen to stay in their home), the struggle is far from over.


You very literally start from scratch, no matter what you were in your home country, because you came with nothing. And you're starting all over again, for many of them, in the middle of your life, when everything should be settled. Only this time, you also have no support, no friends, no extended family, no colleagues. There is the government and the local authority, of course, but that support is by necessity, even in the best of cases, aloof and business-like, as much making sure you are where it's been decided you're supposed to be as helping you to settle in unfamiliar ground (here I do have to note that in our case we were very fortunate, and that our local MP back then went above and beyond to help us).


I do understand the worries about such a large influx of refugees and how to cope with it, simply on the basis that this is something that Europe hasn't seen in generations. But it's happened before and will in all probability happen again, and no country will be shattered by it. I do not understand, however, the 'what about me/our social care' complaints. Because that is not going to impact you or your country now, but rather, IF policy is stunningly ill-planned in the meantime, such dire effects would be felt in fifteen or more years from now. But this is a crisis now, and these people need help now. And really, not even help, not handouts, but just to be treated as a fellow human. One who wants, more than anything, NOT to be a refugee, not to be considered a burden, but just to be allowed to start living their life again.

[Nicodimas]

Those are great points. You are completely right Khell that this is a situation that needs resolution now and not to be argued over and politicked. I don't think it's going to be simple as you are dealing with the large influx that will likely grow.

I know how the system works here. The tough part from the outside looking in is everyone knows how it's abused by people that don't have any right, drives me up the wall. However, it's tough if you were down on your luck today-I ask you how do you get help? It's a ton of different buildings that you would have reach out to. No Car. We are spread out and it's summer. Ok, now imagine multiplying this by languages barriers, suddenly overburdened staff. The resource potentially are there out here in our state for instance, but it's a bureaucratic process that requires lot's of steps. Tough situation all around.

SideBar: The Church- This is where they could really shine, open those vast coffers and get to work. I see the Pope has responded so hoping they do there thing ...

[Gust Hubb]

[Gothos]

Gothos, on 08 September 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Maark, on 08 September 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

I think that what's being implied is exactly what you're implying that Terez was implying, though it's clearly a wry response to the 'put them in camps' idea. Sort of a bitter irony.

REFUGEE CAMPS, dammit. As in, opposed to mixing them in with all the ultras and nationalists that'd spark an incident. GOD DAMMIT. ARGH.


As a side note, do NOT imply the concentration camps were polish within arm's reach of anyone of polish descent or nationality. You have been warned.

Sorry, but I had to pop in to drop this little bit:
http://www.theguardi...-live-at-dachau

[Terez]

Gothos, on 22 September 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

Sorry, but I had to pop in to drop this little bit:
http://www.theguardi...-live-at-dachau

The Guardian said:

Syrians have celebrated chancellor Angela Merkel as their “compassionate mother” and chanted “thank you, Germany” on the streets.

Mhysa, Mhysa!

[Maark Abbott]

Terez, on 22 September 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Gothos, on 22 September 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

Sorry, but I had to pop in to drop this little bit:
http://www.theguardi...-live-at-dachau

The Guardian said:

Syrians have celebrated chancellor Angela Merkel as their "compassionate mother" and chanted "thank you, Germany" on the streets.

Mhysa, Mhysa!

How long before some random white hipster begins to complain that brown people are hailing a white lady in such a manner?

[Terez]

Just a few days after the last post in this thread, Humans of New York (social media blog) started a series on refugees. If you don't follow them, I highly recommend reading some of the stories they posted. They interviewed people in Austria, Hungary, Greece, and Croatia. The best way to get all the stories on Facebook is to go to their photos and click through them in reverse order (to the left) starting here.

This post has been edited by Terez: 09 October 2015 - 12:19 PM