[worry]

My personal pet theory is that all the POV characters are Targaryens. I'll have to explain why at a later date though, sorry.

[Andorion]

worry, on 27 November 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

My personal pet theory is that all the POV characters are Targaryens. I'll have to explain why at a later date though, sorry.

This would be hilarious

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

There's actually quite a few Targs with dark hair from non Targ/Targ marriages. You ll have to look up Targ lineage and portraits as none of it in books but it's all canon from Art book and the World book

I know the genetics for hair and eye colour are actually vastly more complicated than that, but with the Baratheon/Lannister unions Ned/Jon Arryn looked at Martin seems to be running with the old-fashioned simplistic idea that the allele for brown hair is dominant, the one for blonde recessive. Could just be an extension of the same thing - when you think about it, the vast majority of Targ marriages were to other Targs after all.

Worry needs to take over from Martin, I think.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 27 November 2015 - 06:47 AM

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

There's actually quite a few Targs with dark hair from non Targ/Targ marriages. You ll have to look up Targ lineage and portraits as none of it in books but it's all canon from Art book and the World book

Does Targaryen blood give dragon controlling ability? It would be neat to see Rhaegal/Viseryon tamed by Tyrion

It goes a very long way toward it but it's not 100%. Wasn't Quentyn supposed to to have Targ blood? Been to long for me but he's roasted and the dragons didn't even blink at his attempt to steal them.

Very diluted blood through an old marriage I think. Quentyn's theft attempt was the most facepalm moment for me. he had no plans for the fire at all. Nothing.

[Andorion]

ONe thing I had always wondered was why Ned never asked Robert to legitimise Snow. But R+L=J would rule that out

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

ONe thing I had always wondered was why Ned never asked Robert to legitimise Snow. But R+L=J would rule that out

I was always under the impression that if Robert knew Jon was Rhaegar's he'd kill him, Ned be damned. I think the reader is given the "Children? I see only dragonspawn" line from Robert when Tywin brought the children's bodies to him quite deliberately.

[Andorion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

ONe thing I had always wondered was why Ned never asked Robert to legitimise Snow. But R+L=J would rule that out

I was always under the impression that if Robert knew Jon was Rhaegar's he'd kill him, Ned be damned. I think the reader is given the "Children? I see only dragonspawn" line from Robert when Tywin brought the children's bodies to him quite deliberately.

To me that was only reason why Ned would not want Jon to be legitimised. As a bastard on the wall he is harmless, but as a Stark with secret Targ blood he is a danger. If he really was just Neds bastard though he would probably have asked Robert to legitimise him

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

ONe thing I had always wondered was why Ned never asked Robert to legitimise Snow. But R+L=J would rule that out

I don't think Ned would ask that either way.

Remember how salty Cat was over Jon's existence, and having to live with him. She would have taken legitimizing him as a slap in the face.

Even if Jon is Ned's, Ned would not try to legitimize him.


In fact if R+L=J really is true (which I assume) the thing that rings false to me is that Ned would never tell Cat.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 27 November 2015 - 03:22 PM

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 27 November 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

ONe thing I had always wondered was why Ned never asked Robert to legitimise Snow. But R+L=J would rule that out

I don't think Ned would ask that either way.

Remember how salty Cat was over Jon's existence, and having to live with him. She would have taken legitimizing him as a slap in the face.

Even if Jon is Ned's, Ned would not try to legitimize him.


In fact if R+L=J really is true (which I assume) the thing that rings false to me is that Ned would never tell Cat.

Ned was probably afraid for Jon. If the news got out bastard or not his life would be in danger.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

Ned was probably afraid for Jon. If the news got out bastard or not his life would be in danger.

Yes, that is presumably why he would not tell others, and feeds perfectly into his reaction to Robert wanting Dany and Viserys assassinated.

But he and Cat were married, and even if that is a nobility marriage where he does not immediately trust her, they become pretty close over the years. The one thing holding them back further is always the presence of Jon. So why not just tell her? Would have made Jon's life easier, would have made the hit to her pride a lot less, etc.

Not telling her is an indication you think she is so proud (or hates Targaryens so much) that should we tell people who Jon really is.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 27 November 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

Ned was probably afraid for Jon. If the news got out bastard or not his life would be in danger.

Yes, that is presumably why he would not tell others, and feeds perfectly into his reaction to Robert wanting Dany and Viserys assassinated.

But he and Cat were married, and even if that is a nobility marriage where he does not immediately trust her, they become pretty close over the years. The one thing holding them back further is always the presence of Jon. So why not just tell her? Would have made Jon's life easier, would have made the hit to her pride a lot less, etc.

Not telling her is an indication you think she is so proud (or hates Targaryens so much) that should we tell people who Jon really is.

Given how much Cat hates Jon and probably hated him since he was a baby, Ned probably thought the secret would never be safe with her. He probably promised Lyanna he would keep him safe, and you know how seriously Ned takes his promises

[Andorion]

A few thoughts:

Sansa clearly heard Petyr confess to instigating the Arynn poisoning and the letter to Cat. Following on from that its easy to work out he was behind virtually the entire war. But does Sansa ever realise this? At all?

I was leafing through A World of Ice and Fire and its clearly mentioned that Targaryens get burnt and in fact can die from burns. So Dany's immunity from flame in the dragon hatching scene was something unique. This reinforces my theory that she is the actual Azor Ahai.

I was clicking through the forums on Westeros and I noticed that a lot of viewers felt that the way Stannis burnt Shireen at the end of Season 5 was a great betrayal of his book character. I honestly don't see this. I have never liked book Stannis. He is too rigid. He should have struck a deal with the Starks, he should have made a few more compromises along the way. But he is hard and ruthless, Frankly I see him capable of killing anyone at all to get what he wants.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

Given how much Cat hates Jon and probably hated him since he was a baby, Ned probably thought the secret would never be safe with her. He probably promised Lyanna he would keep him safe, and you know how seriously Ned takes his promises

Yeah, except she hated him because she thought he was a living embodiment of Ned cheating on his wife.

[worry]

That's her natural reaction. If she was told, then she would behave differently or have to "act" her hatred of Jon, either one weakening the ruse.

[Werthead]

Genetics in Westeros are actually different than in our world. It's one thing Martin deliberately did, he made it so hair colour traits and other identifiable things were a lot more readily explainable than in reality. There are a few other things (I think he's mentioned that plant/animal life would have to adapt to the seasons, but it's not something he wanted to get into in a major way) as well, but that's something in the setting that is scientifically different to our world.

Ned never legitimised Jon because of the insult it would cause to House Tully and Catelyn, by putting another claimant into the line of succession that might jeopardise Cat's children.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 28 November 2015 - 05:53 PM

[Andorion]

No, I have yet to find them. Westeros is not the most stable website

So I am still worrying if that pink letter was genuine or not, whether Stannis survived and what happens in the North.

I also think Dany is going to have a diverging storyline in the books and the show, At the end of the show she is alone on the Dothraki sea and is found by a khalasar. At the end of the books she is standing by Drogon as he devours his kill - a horse of the Khalasar when the Dothraki come.

A dragon makes all the difference

In the show there is no house of the undying prophecy about Dothraki crones bowing to her. This makes me think that in the books, Dany goes to the Dos Khaleen and sort of becomes khaleesi of the Dothraki, and is thus finally ready for an invasion

Also does Aegon the Conqueror remind anybody of Alexander the Great? And his sister Visenya was an utter badass.

I have been thinking a lot about the show vs the books and these are the aspects of season 5 that bother me the most:



Ever since LF gave Sansa to the Boltons I was wondering why he did that. It made no sense. What was the point of her Season 4 story?

Tyrion joining Dany made no sense. That slave auction - some of the most kindhearted/lenient slavers ever. Why did that big guy even cut Tyrion's chain so he could go out into the arena?

Dorne - well Dorne. I can't really say anything else.

The ridiculous way the High Septon and Sparrows domination was shown

Ramsey apparently has the power to set fire to all the supplies of a 6000 strong army in the middle of a snow storm while having no modern accelerants. Maybe he is a weredragon?

If all the horses were gone, so that even Stannis had to walk to Winterfell, where did Mel get a horse to ride back to Castle Black?

The doors of Winterfell can apparently be unlocked by corkscrews

Unsullied have shortswords in the book, conveniently omitted in the show.

When will Jorah stop standing in front of Dany with this plaintive look on his face?



And now I realise all of these things that bother me are areas where the show people just made things up. This makes me wonder how effective they will be when they are writing without any book basis some thing that makes me fear for Season 6

[worry]

Actually GRRM has said the opposite. Stannis is still alive in the books. You might be misremembering the showrunners explaining he was dead, since people thought it was ambiguous.

[worry]

Maybe so. All I've heard is fan speculation on that matter.

[Gorefest]

I don't think that was GRR Martin. I believe one of the show's producers/directors confirmed that TV Stannis was indeed killed by Brienne and that the chosen editing with the camera pointing away at the moment of his death was purely stylistical.

Book Stannis has not caught up with the pink letter event yet, so we simply don't know whether he is going to die or not. There apparently are some early chapters in WoW with Stannis in them, but timeline wise they all take place before the pink letter event.

Personally, I think book Stannis is going to survive the attack. My reason being the description of the preparations that he is making for the upcoming battle. The layout of the area where he is making his stand and the information that he is gathering from the locals gives tons of hints towards a cunning battle plan.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 01 December 2015 - 04:29 PM

[Traveller]

It kind of makes sense at this point for Grrm to keep Stannis alive. If readers and show-watchers see the paths diverging that much, people are going to be all over the book when it eventually arrives - far more than if it just looks basically the same as the show.