[Nevyn]

 Andorion, on 29 October 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

I have been wondering about this a lot, because a lot of things don't make sense. Also I have been waiting forever for Targaryen backstory and the show won't give me any.

One reason I am hurrying is because I want to be done with this, and finally get into the books. Frankly I think Season 4, overall was below par

I actually quite enjoyed season 4.

You don't get way more Targaryen backstory in the books necessarily.

What Gorefest is referring to is that in the books GRRM tends to follow the plot in detail in a bunch of different places. And for the show, due to time, budget, and keeping track of characters constraints, they have had to pare some things down. But you can't just make, say, an entire house or region disappear, especially since they could become important later. So to avoid the massive diversions they cut out certain plots entirely, and then sometimes put in small 'filler' plots so they can still show characters you are meant to be aware of.

Do they make the right decisions? Do they execute them well? We can talk about that once you are caught up.

[Andorion]

 Nevyn, on 29 October 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

 Andorion, on 29 October 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

I have been wondering about this a lot, because a lot of things don't make sense. Also I have been waiting forever for Targaryen backstory and the show won't give me any.

One reason I am hurrying is because I want to be done with this, and finally get into the books. Frankly I think Season 4, overall was below par

I actually quite enjoyed season 4.

You don't get way more Targaryen backstory in the books necessarily.

What Gorefest is referring to is that in the books GRRM tends to follow the plot in detail in a bunch of different places. And for the show, due to time, budget, and keeping track of characters constraints, they have had to pare some things down. But you can't just make, say, an entire house or region disappear, especially since they could become important later. So to avoid the massive diversions they cut out certain plots entirely, and then sometimes put in small 'filler' plots so they can still show characters you are meant to be aware of.

Do they make the right decisions? Do they execute them well? We can talk about that once you are caught up.

Any opinions on Sansa and Petyr? Sansa could have fried his plan if she had been honest, It seemed to me that Petyr hadn't thought of that.

Also, one of my friends who has only seen the shows, not read the books keeps on telling me that the warriors of the Vale are the fiercest and most skilled in Westeros and so everyone wants their allegiance. Is this true?

[Nevyn]

 Andorion, on 30 October 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

Any opinions on Sansa and Petyr? Sansa could have fried his plan if she had been honest, It seemed to me that Petyr hadn't thought of that.

Also, one of my friends who has only seen the shows, not read the books keeps on telling me that the warriors of the Vale are the fiercest and most skilled in Westeros and so everyone wants their allegiance. Is this true?

It seems like Petyr has a blind spot both when it comes to Cat, and by extension Sansa. But it is tough to tell the extent of it, because in both books and show you rarely get his POV.

But lets remember that not only did Petyr 'rescue' Sansa from King's Landing, but she is still wanted and being searched for by the Lannisters. Her Aunt is dead, and that was her only real tie in to those in the Vale. So she could have fried his plan, but it would likely not be in her interest.

I don't recall all that much talk about the Vale being that big a deal in books or show. The Vale (and especially the Aerie) is protected by terrain so is difficult to assault. And in the books there are some very good fighters from there. But Dorne is also notorious for fighters, northmen are no joke, etc etc. Usually martial prowess is more identified by person than by region, and those famous fighters come from everywhere. The Clegane brothers and Jaime Lannister are from the Westerlands, Arthur Dayne was from Dorne, Barristan Selmy from the Stormlands, Loras Tyrell is from Highgarden.

[Andorion]

 Nevyn, on 30 October 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

 Andorion, on 30 October 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

Any opinions on Sansa and Petyr? Sansa could have fried his plan if she had been honest, It seemed to me that Petyr hadn't thought of that.

Also, one of my friends who has only seen the shows, not read the books keeps on telling me that the warriors of the Vale are the fiercest and most skilled in Westeros and so everyone wants their allegiance. Is this true?

It seems like Petyr has a blind spot both when it comes to Cat, and by extension Sansa. But it is tough to tell the extent of it, because in both books and show you rarely get his POV.

But lets remember that not only did Petyr 'rescue' Sansa from King's Landing, but she is still wanted and being searched for by the Lannisters. Her Aunt is dead, and that was her only real tie in to those in the Vale. So she could have fried his plan, but it would likely not be in her interest.

I don't recall all that much talk about the Vale being that big a deal in books or show. The Vale (and especially the Aerie) is protected by terrain so is difficult to assault. And in the books there are some very good fighters from there. But Dorne is also notorious for fighters, northmen are no joke, etc etc. Usually martial prowess is more identified by person than by region, and those famous fighters come from everywhere. The Clegane brothers and Jaime Lannister are from the Westerlands, Arthur Dayne was from Dorne, Barristan Selmy from the Stormlands, Loras Tyrell is from Highgarden.

 Briar King, on 30 October 2015 - 03:14 AM, said:

They certainly aren't. It's their main keep has the biggest myth of being untakeable due to geography in the 7 Kingdoms

Re: Vale Thats what I thought as well. They have an awesome stronghold, but there is no evidence of their being better fighters.

I have a new theory. GRRM hates marriage. Why? Because terrible things happen to all the people who have gotten married on the show

1. Renly Baratheon. Marries Margery. Stabbed to death by shadow assassin

2. Rob Stark marries Talisa: Red Wedding

3. Edmure (?) Tully married Freys daughter: Red Wedding

4. Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister marries Margery: Poisoned

5. Tyrion Lannister marries Sansa Stark: Tyrion condemned to death, in virtual exile, thought to be regicide, is parricide. Sansa in the hands of Petyr Bailish, so definitely in danger

6. Daenerys Targaryen marries Drogo: Drogo dies, Daenerys loses her position and her unborn child

7. Lyssa Arryn marries Petyr Baelish: Murdered

Really, its quite uncanny. So now I am worried about Tommen

Edit: And its almost as bad for people who were already married when the show started

1. The Starks; both die
2. Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister: Robert dies
3. Jon and Lyssa Arryn: Jon dies
4. Walder Frey loses his wife at the red wedding

This post has been edited by Andorion: 30 October 2015 - 04:13 AM

[Garak]

Anotger regarding the Vale is the fact that they have fresh troops, since they stayed out of the war (same for Dorne).

[Nevyn]

 Andorion, on 30 October 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

Re: Vale Thats what I thought as well. They have an awesome stronghold, but there is no evidence of their being better fighters.

I have a new theory. GRRM hates marriage. Why? Because terrible things happen to all the people who have gotten married on the show

1. Renly Baratheon. Marries Margery. Stabbed to death by shadow assassin

2. Rob Stark marries Talisa: Red Wedding

3. Edmure (?) Tully married Freys daughter: Red Wedding

4. Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister marries Margery: Poisoned

5. Tyrion Lannister marries Sansa Stark: Tyrion condemned to death, in virtual exile, thought to be regicide, is parricide. Sansa in the hands of Petyr Bailish, so definitely in danger

6. Daenerys Targaryen marries Drogo: Drogo dies, Daenerys loses her position and her unborn child

7. Lyssa Arryn marries Petyr Baelish: Murdered

Really, its quite uncanny. So now I am worried about Tommen

Edit: And its almost as bad for people who were already married when the show started

1. The Starks; both die
2. Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister: Robert dies
3. Jon and Lyssa Arryn: Jon dies
4. Walder Frey loses his wife at the red wedding

Strong theory. But not as strong as my "the underlying message of 24 is that women are nothing but trouble" theory.

[Andorion]

Episodes 1-3

Kings Landing

1. It was really nice to see a flashback, there should have been more throughout the show. So Cersei was told that all her children would die, and she would be overthrown by a younger rival? No wonder she is paranoid.

2. I don't get Cersei's argument that Tommen is too young to appoint a Hand. Joffrey was underage and Tywin became Hand. This is a naked ploy to retain power. I think she is losing it.

3. That statue, what evidence is there that it came from Dorne? Oberyn distinctly said they did not harm little girls.

4. Margery really went overboard in provoking Cersei.

5. This Sparrow group, are they a sect? And why is Cersei indulging fanatics? Thats dangerous. She really is losing it.

6. Whats up with the Mountain?

The Wall

1. It's a real pity that Mance could not agree andStannis could not compromise. To me. recruiting the Wildlings is the most logical step. If they die to the Whitewalkers, they join the zombie army. Far better to get them out of harms way and recruit them to fight

2. I thought Jons election came a little out of left field. I did not think he was that popular

3. Appointing Alliser First Ranger was a very good move,but Slynts execution could have been handled better.

4. So Stannis needs Jon to win the loyalty of the North?I seriously doubt if he is going to get that.

The North

1. Does Petyr know about Ramsay? He wants Sansa to marry him? What does he gain by this?

2. How strong are the Boltons relative to the other Northern lords? They could band together against the Boltons

3. I hope Brienne's storyline is going somewhere as it is quite boring now.

Braavos

1. So Arya finally goes into training as a Faceless Man.I wonder how she is going to handle this identity renunciation bit.

2. How come we only see one Faceless Man? I thought they were like a sect.

Pentos to Volantis

1. Why does Varys want to take Tyrion to Daenerys?Wouldn't she hate and distrust him? In fact wouldn't Varys also be viewed with hostility?

2. Which queen did Jorah mean? Cersei or Daenerys

Meeren

1. Daenerys is really making a mess of these counterinsurgency operations. She should have anticipated that the rebel would be in danger. And the public execution was idiotic. She is losing her main support base. She seems so different from the Dany who persuaded the remnants of the Dothraki to follow her.

2. The two imprisoned dragons are even more angry. I don't really blame them.

3. The Drogon-Dany scene - I was biting my hand. I half expected him to attack. But his flying away was so much sadder.

Dorne

1. A Jaime-Bronne teamup? Awesome! I like Bronne, hope nothing happens to him

2. So all is not well in Dorne. I am pretty sure if Myrcella was harmed there would be war



Note: Where is Bran? His story is really important! And what happened to Rickon and Osha? They seem to have vanished. Also the Ironborn continue to be missing in action

This post has been edited by Andorion: 31 October 2015 - 02:33 AM

[worry]

Jon isn't that popular. But there's <100 dudes left, so being mildly popular is decent enough.

Don't expect the Bran-man any time soon.

[Andorion]

 worry, on 31 October 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

Jon isn't that popular. But there's <100 dudes left, so being mildly popular is decent enough.

Don't expect the Bran-man any time soon.

No Bran? How does that make sense? I don't think I like this season

I was pretty sure Jon's pro-wildling stance would make him an outcast

[worry]

It makes sense due to the herky jerky nature of books 4 & 5. But also it's mostly probably budget reasons, regardless of any other excuses.

Really it's fine to think a scene sucks (several in season 5 do) but after making that call, your second reaction should pretty much always be "I guess they're saving money there for something else."

I think it's pretty clear that plenty of people do dislike Jon and his stance. Then again, just a few posts ago you thought letting the Wildlings through to team up was a decent idea, so wouldn't you have voted for him?

[Andorion]

 worry, on 31 October 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

It makes sense due to the herky jerky nature of books 4 & 5. But also it's mostly probably budget reasons, regardless of any other excuses.

Really it's fine to think a scene sucks (several in season 5 do) but after making that call, your second reaction should pretty much always be "I guess they're saving money there for something else."

I think it's pretty clear that plenty of people do dislike Jon and his stance. Then again, just a few posts ago you thought letting the Wildlings through to team up was a decent idea, so wouldn't you have voted for him?

Budget reasons - sigh - another reason why I prefer books.

I was just wondering that the Nights Watch have had it drilled into them for a thousand and more years that the Wildlings are the enemy. So it would be perfectly natural for them to ignore logic.

The Kings Landing scenes now lack punch with no Tywin. Cersei alone is not enough. Lots of things happen but they don't have that magnetic quality in them anymore

I think this season is starting to show the cracks in Emilia Clarks (?) acting skills. She was very good in 1 and 2, but now she keeps on only smiling weirdly or being smug and haughty. The Daenerys storyline is lacking logic as well. She was never afraid to move among the people, talk to them and win them over. But now she refuses to get down from that pyramid. A bit of PR would help her a lot. Or is this some Targaryen character defect?

[worry]

 Andorion, on 31 October 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

I was just wondering that the Nights Watch have had it drilled into them for a thousand and more years that the Wildlings are the enemy. So it would be perfectly natural for them to ignore logic.

I can see this reasoning in theoretical terms, but the Night's Watch just aren't those people. If it was a race of immortals who had taken up the black all those years ago and were still fighting the fight, that'd be a different story. These are just men. Most a few decades old, and perhaps not particularly moral or principle-driven, nor even necessarily well-trained. Maybe one of them is superstitious and thinks Jon Snow conjured Stannis's forces via dark magic. Who knows? There are baseball players who don't wash their socks all season or whatever. People are nutty.

Also, of course, the Wildlings aren't the millennia-spanning Enemy anyway. That's the White Walkers.

[amphibian]

Keep in mind how old Danerys is - she's supposed to be in her late teens, early twenties, a baby up until Robert's rule, then a beggar royal for the rest of the time.

Expecting her to get complex things like counterinsurgency right means you think she's a precocious genius.

I'd also ignore Briar King a bit in regards to the book depiction. One of the things book Dany does is discover and experience freedom and lust even more than the show Dany. The characters are different and Briar King keeps dwelling on how much he dislikes show bc it abridges or changes the books.

[Andorion]

 amphibian, on 31 October 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

Keep in mind how old Danerys is - she's supposed to be in her late teens, early twenties, a baby up until Robert's rule, then a beggar royal for the rest of the time.

Expecting her to get complex things like counterinsurgency right means you think she's a precocious genius.

I'd also ignore Briar King a bit in regards to the book depiction. One of the things book Dany does is discover and experience freedom and lust even more than the show Dany. The characters are different and Briar King keeps dwelling on how much he dislikes show bc it abridges or changes the books.

I don't expect her to get things right. I have been waiting for some time to see how things go wrong. But she doesn't really listen to her advisers either.

[Andorion]

Episodes 4-6



Kings Landing

1. What weird game is Littlefinger playing? What does hegain by marring Sansa to Ramsey? If he wants the Knights of the Vale to stampout the Boltons why put Sansa in Winterfell?

2. Ok, that trial is bullshit. No other way to put it. Loras is convicted because Olyvar could describe a birthmark? He is a squire! Squires see their knights naked all the time, its part of the job description! Why didn't anybody mention this?

And Margary was convicted because Loras said she walked in on them and so was lying earlier? Its his word against hers! She is the queen,he is himself guilty of homosexuality and so vulnerable to church coercion.There is literally no evidence.

I am not saying the Church would give them an impartial trial, I am saying Olenna should have pointed all this out, Margary should have pointed all this out. There silence is idiotic and beyond belief. They could have used these obvious problems as legal grounds for armed intervention.

The Wall

1. Is Melisandre's policy, when in doubt, strip? That scene was bad. How did she know to say "You know nothing, John Snow"?

2. Sam would have been a good Maester. This is something I have actually been wondering about. Why didn't his father send him to be a Maester? Why didn't the NW send him? Maester Aemon is really old and it would be good to have a NW maester in training.

3. Jon is going to Hardhome. I have a bad feeling.

4. Stannis' scene with his daughter was beautiful. Its the first time he has shown real emotion and affection.

Winterfell

1. Why on Earth did Sansa think it was a good idea to walkinto a dark passage because a strange girl told her to? I was half afraid she would find her mothers skin there.

2. Those chest-open v-necks Sansa and Myranda are wearing are really not appropriate for Winterfell in the winter.

3. Ramsay rapes Sansa. As brutal as it was, I have been expecting something like this for some time, and I will once again repeat, why did Petyr put her here?

Dorne

1. Dornish security is bad . Just really bad. The Princeknew Ellaria had threatened Myrcella, yet Jaime and Bronne just strolled injust because they wore the uniform? They look nothing like Dornish men! And then Ellaria and Co. also just walk in? Do the guards not know where entrances and exits are, or do they not care?

Meeren

1. Why do the Unsullied only fight with spears and shields?Thats great for field warfare, but in a city there should be shortswords,daggers etc. They don't seem to have much adaptability and frankly seem overrated

2. Dany goes off the deep end and feeds a guy to the dragons. Not sure what she hopes to achieve, it will only antagonize the ruling class more

3. How will marrying Hizdar solve anything? This will now anger the ex-slaves.

Braavos

1. Not sure I understand the face swapping thing. Magic?

Valyria

1. The Dragon Tyrion and Jorah saw. Drogon?

2. The Stone Men attack aftermath seemed completely wrong.They were attacked in a narrow channel with big ruins on either side. Before Tyrion blacks out the boat is fine.

When he wakes up, they are on a beach, the boat is gone. Jorah carried him that far, swum with him that far?

3. If Jorah has Greyscale will anybody who touches him get Greyscale? Then a lot of the slavers are going to get it. How contagious is it?

4. This has to be the most lenient slave auction ever. The slaver, lets Tyrion, a dwarf, beat up his servant, and the guy who was exclusively buying slaves for the fighting pits, buys him, because he is funny?



Overall I have to say, quality in this season seems to havegone down. Too many implausible things happen.

[acesn8s]

 Andorion, on 02 November 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

Episodes 4-6

Meeren

1. Why do the Unsullied only fight with spears and shields? That's great for field warfare, but in a city there should be shortswords, daggers etc. They don't seem to have much adaptability and frankly seem overrated.

They are only trained as infantry. They are considered the best infantry in the world as they are utterly loyal. You line a large group of them up on the battlefield and tell them to charge or hold and that is what they will do. What they are not is a special forces unit, police force, peerless duelers, cavalry, etc.

Quote

Braavos

1. Not sure I understand the face swapping thing. Magic?

Yes.

This post has been edited by acesn8s: 02 November 2015 - 05:33 PM

[Nevyn]

 Andorion, on 02 November 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

Episodes 4-6

2. Ok, that trial is bullshit. No other way to put it. Loras is convicted because Olyvar could describe a birthmark? He is a squire! Squires see their knights naked all the time, its part of the job description! Why didn't anybody mention this?

No trial as of yet. Think of it like an arraignment.

Quote

3. Jon is going to Hardhome. I have a bad feeling.

Whats the worst that could happen?

Quote

3. Ramsay rapes Sansa. As brutal as it was, I have been expecting something like this for some time, and I will once again repeat, why did Petyr put her here?

It is as yet open to interpretation. I will say that this is one of those story arcs different in the show.

Petyr tells Sansa he expects Stannis to win in the North. Maybe that's true, and she won't have to be married long, and will be back in Winterfell. Maybe the north is the only place he thinks he can keep her from Cersei's grasp. Or maybe he has never really cared about her except as a chess piece.

Quote

1. Dornish security is bad . Just really bad. The Princeknew Ellaria had threatened Myrcella, yet Jaime and Bronne just strolled injust because they wore the uniform? They look nothing like Dornish men! And then Ellaria and Co. also just walk in? Do the guards not know where entrances and exits are, or do they not care?

Remember the conversation about changed/shortened storylines on the fringes? Welcome to TV Dorne.

Quote

Valyria

1. The Dragon Tyrion and Jorah saw. Drogon?

Probably

Quote

Overall I have to say, quality in this season seems to havegone down. Too many implausible things happen.

It happens when you are taking books that were already not among the series' best, and then trying to make them more focused while still moving the right pieces to the right places.

[Gorefest]

The Wall stuff on tv looks awesome, the Arya storyline is intriguing. The rest? I struggle to understand a lot of the choices that the tv show made at this stage, so I'm reserving comment until you get to the books so as to not accidentally spoil or twist your observations.

[Gorefest]

I'm still punting for a 'Fire' win on tv and an 'Ice' win in the books. Just because GRR Martin.
I can just see tv going for the big brave dragonriders defeating the evil walking corpses, whereas in the books we will learn that it was actually the Others who built the Wall to protect the last vestiges of magic and Zen-like shared consciousness/hive mind children of the forest stuff from the evil destructive dragons.
Although my wife pointed out that dragons could just fly over the Wall, so meh.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 02 November 2015 - 10:12 PM

[Andorion]

So, to summarize, the main reason Season 5 seems odd, incomplete and occasionally silly is that the book being adapted was bigger and not as good as the previous ones, and this effort caused them to diverge more from the book and therefore they had to make their own stuff up to cover the gaps?