[Egwene]

Aimzz raised the question on the Wikia as to whether those two should be treated as being one and the same?

http://malazan.wikia...Omtose_Phellack
http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Ice_Hold


PS: if you are reading this, take a moment to have a look at some of the other topics. Need help/second opinions for several wiki entries. Many thanks

[Nevyn]

Egwene, on 17 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Aimzz raised the question on the Wikia as to whether those two should be treated as being one and the same?

http://malazan.wikia...Omtose_Phellack
http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Ice_Hold


PS: if you are reading this, take a moment to have a look at some of the other topics. Need help/second opinions for several wiki entries. Many thanks

Holds are the older version of Houses
Elder Warrens are the older version of Warrens

The warren is the source of power/location.
The hold/house is the representation in the tiles/deck of dragons, and the ascendants with various roles within it (and thus their own tile/card). Also in some way related to the Azath, but I'm not sure the complete relationship is ever spelled out.

Quote

'The House of Shadow was once a Hold...You can tell – it doesn’t share the hierarchical structure of the other Houses. It is bestial, a wilder place, and apart from the Hounds it knew no ruler for a long, long time.’

-Silverfox, to Paran MoI, UK Trade, p.119

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 17 April 2015 - 08:14 PM

[Egwene]

Thank you for the concise answer, Nevyn.

I have already made some corrections to what was on the Wiki. Could you take a look at the two pages and see what you think?

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Ice_Hold
http://malazan.wikia...Omtose_Phellack

Especially the following bit on the Ice Hold page doesn't seem to be right:

The Hold of Ice was made manifest on the continent of [[Lether]] by [[Gothos]] after the [[Tiste Invasion]] that saw the defeat of a large force of [[K'Chain Che'Malle]]. It lay active for thousands of years, delaying the development of Warrens there. After the events in ''[[Reaper's Gale]]'', the Warrens began to manifest on the continent, and the manifestation of the Hold began to end.

Any suggestions for improvements for either page would be most welcome. Holds and Warrens were never my forte!

[Nevyn]

In the Omtose Phellack one, you may want a note about the revelations of Forge of Darkness to make it more complete. But as with everything malazan that will also make it hopelessly confusing,

Omtose Phellack was a Jaghut city until Gothos (also called the Lord of Hate) convinced the Jaghut that civilization was self-defeating, after which it was abandoned by all but Gothos himself.

*THEN A BUNCH OF STUFF HAPPENS WHICH HASN'T BEEN EXPLAINED TO US YET WHICH TURNS FoD PLACES INTO WARRENS*

From then on you're fine I think.


As to the ice hold on Letheras stuff, I'd have to go look up the references to see how it was described, but I would say it was the warren, not the hold, which manifested there.

[Zeranamu]

Nevyn, on 17 April 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

In the Omtose Phellack one, you may want a note about the revelations of Forge of Darkness to make it more complete. But as with everything malazan that will also make it hopelessly confusing,

Omtose Phellack was a Jaghut city until Gothos (also called the Lord of Hate) convinced the Jaghut that civilization was self-defeating, after which it was abandoned by all but Gothos himself.

*THEN A BUNCH OF STUFF HAPPENS WHICH HASN'T BEEN EXPLAINED TO US YET WHICH TURNS FoD PLACES INTO WARRENS*

From then on you're fine I think.


As to the ice hold on Letheras stuff, I'd have to go look up the references to see how it was described, but I would say it was the warren, not the hold, which manifested there.

From what I remember it was the Hold, because the warrens hadn't 'touched Letheras' yet, or some such. Since they still used the Holds for their magic, and not the Warrens (which I believe.. Ben? Said are 'cleaner, more efficient'). And when the mages are there, they talk about how it is a rawer sort of power... Been a while, though, re-reading the series again.

This post has been edited by Zeranamu: 18 April 2015 - 10:08 AM

[Nevyn]

Upon some targetted searches, I withdraw my earlier interpretation of where Holds fit in. It seems that holds are both the older version of Warrens AND the older version of Houses. Bottle talks in the Bonehunters about some warrens actually being (or having been) Holds.

As for what was unveiled in Letheras, six of one, half dozen of the other.When Gothos actually DOES it, and when Silchas discusses it, they mention a ritual of Omtose Phellack.

The letherii and the edur talk about the Hold of Ice, but the Letherii only deal with Holds (both for sorcery and for reading tiles), so that is their name for it.

In tCG Shurq asks Felash if Omtose Phellack IS the hold of ice, and Felash implies that ice is the most common manifestation of Omtose Phellack, but not all of it. Later, when Hood returns he is introduced as King of the Hold of Ice.

I am still searching for the actual quotes on why the warrens didn't develop in Letheras, but so far no luck.

By the way, text searching google books previews is a great way to look this stuff up.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 18 April 2015 - 05:28 PM

[worry]

I dunno about quotes, and Gothos' ritual does have something to do with it, but I believe the Errant also had a big influence in order to maintain his hegemony on the continent re: his role as Master of the Tiles.