Malazan Empire: Some early thoughts - Malazan Empire

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Some early thoughts Spoilers up to chapter 3.....

#21 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 01:23 AM

View PostKeysi, on 20 April 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

What??

From what's been revealed so far, the Jaghut didn't deserve all the suffering inflicted upon them. They have mostly been described as pacifists, though there is the odd tyrant, but they are a rarity and usually delt with by other Jaghut anyway.

Plus collective punishment is not a good way to go about it.

Though I am expecting a possible big reveal that they were not always pacifists perhaps....it was mentioned once I think that they did not always live in solitude, maybe we will find out that when they did live in communities they were right nasty bastards too. Just a wee thought.


I am rereading Deadhouse Gates, and there is this section, where Sormo and the Wickan mages take on the Semk god, where it ti smentioned that the Jaghut rituals of Omtose Phellack destroyed entire civilizations including those of the K'Chain Chemaille and the Forkrul Assail. So the Jaghut are not pacificsts. I don't know what gave you that idea. They just don't conduct an organized war, being hyper-individualistic (and even this is qualified RAFO for details). But they are masters of the disproportionate response.

I get you are very anti-Imass and pro-Jaghut thanks to the MoI prologue. Just read on, pay attention to Tool's PoVs and think on this line that nothing comes without a cost, so for the power and the ferocity the Imass gained through the ritual, what did they pay?
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#22 User is offline   Tiam is an Imploding Unit 

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 04:34 PM

It's also worth keeping in mind that while the T'lan are mostly miserable bastards now what with their little emotion and no purpose but to exterminate the Jaghut; they chose to enter the Ritual. You'd have to assume that there was reasonable justification to do that to yourself - and your people - in order to eradicate these Jaghut.

Well, there might've been reasonable justification or Erikson just wanted undead things to play with.
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#23 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 04:32 PM

Is their sorrow for what they have done over the milenia to the Jaghut? They don't seem to even want to stop it.

Soooooo much stuff going on, I'm now just past the part where Trotts fights the dual, don't even know if he's going to survive yet.

I really should make a list of things I want to ask about, I know there are lots of them but can't seem to remember right now. The whole Barghast's "Spirits" thing is a little confusing. Are the spirits just the ghosts of their dead ancestors? If so, why imprison them under those trees? Why not let them roam and gain more power, as seems to be the case. Also it'a cool that some seem to be going to ascend.


Loving the whole thing with Treach and Fener, who will be the true God of War???
Though, I do wish I understood more the difference between a true ascendant and a Soletaken First Hero. I'm too afraid to look it up in fear of spoilers. The whole Soletaken and Path of Hands thing confused me a bit in the last book too, will probably make more sense on a re read.
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#24 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 04:51 PM

Not so much what they did to the Jaghut, rather, what they lost and became in the process. This will be explained in detail later.

The Barghast believe mortal souls become malevolent and dangerous after death so they take special precautions to restrict them to the barrow. Also your point regarding power is valid but, thats just something else for them to worry about. If you dont know if the soul will be benevolent or malevolent, letting it gain power can be risky.

Edit: Pg 376-378. Of the bantam paperback has details regarding the upside down trees

This post has been edited by Andorion: 28 April 2015 - 05:09 AM

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#25 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 05:19 PM

View PostKeysi, on 27 April 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

Is their sorrow for what they have done over the milenia to the Jaghut? They don't seem to even want to stop it.


Judging what Imass want or don't want or regret or don't regret is difficult at this stage. RAFO, and remember that they didn't seek to eliminate the Jaghut for sport. Regardless of whether their reaction was appropriate to what they suffered at the hands of the Tyrants, they had a reason.


Quote

Though, I do wish I understood more the difference between a true ascendant and a Soletaken First Hero. I'm too afraid to look it up in fear of spoilers. The whole Soletaken and Path of Hands thing confused me a bit in the last book too, will probably make more sense on a re read.


RAFO

For now, just know that its not just you, and some of this stuff is confusing by design, and the only way to slowly understand better is to just keep reading.

At this point, you should know that Soletaken refers to a shapechanger who can take on a specific animal form. The other terms you will learn more of as you go through the series, but never as fast as you'd like.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 28 April 2015 - 08:32 PM

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#26 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 08:13 PM

Because there is no reason at this point to feel sorry for them-they brought their immortality upon themselves in order to better and for longer commit their genocide on a largely innocent race. Children included. Though, I stand to be corrected by some plot twist at a later date....they possibly had their legitimate reasons.

Still not entirely sure what's goin' on with the Barghast spirits...are they just the ghosts of their ancestors? They gain more power the older they get? And the ones currently trapped in Capuststan are so old they are on the brink of ascending? That's kinda what I think is going on with them so far. Though this still makes me wonder why they would bother to burry them in those barrows?

Also they spirits in Capustan that are pretty much gods, they are referred to as the Founding Families or something, as they are the oldest and first arrived. But there are Barghast on other continents, so they weren't the first Barghast ever, just the first ones to travel to that continent. Wonder why they are so special over ones who didn't leave the original continent.

In the glossary for the first 2 books the Imass and Jaghut were described as founding races along with the two others, however in this one they are just Elder races( along with the Tiste). Does anyone know a spoiler free explanation for this discrepancy?


One last thing- I read the little punch up between Detoran and Hedge purely as slapstick, however it is talked about quite a bit after and seemed a bit more serious. Was I mistaken?
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#27 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 08:19 PM

Damn, I didn't even notice all the replies on this page when I made my last post- my bad. Will read and reply to them tomorrow, in too much of a rush at the minute!
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#28 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 08:30 PM

View PostKeysi, on 28 April 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

In the glossary for the first 2 books the Imass and Jaghut were described as founding races along with the two others, however in this one they are just Elder races( along with the Tiste). Does anyone know a spoiler free explanation for this discrepancy?


The terms are not mutually exclusive. Suffice it to say if you are a founding race you are Elder.

As to why they would switch the terms, no idea. Maybe just distinguishing between founding races commonly thought to be extinct or myth, and founding races still around.

As with many SE things, just go with it.
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When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#29 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 02:00 AM

All Elder races are not Founding races. The Tiste races for example are Elder, but not Founding.

The Imass started their war against the Jaghut in response to multi-generational slavery of entire Imass populations by Jaghut Tyrants. Have you read Silverfox's explanation yet? That is a pretty important part.

The Barghast spirits in Capustan are all basically Gods. The reason for their being accorded so much veneration is that, the Barghast migration took place so long ago, that the surviving Barghast do not remember the old continent, other clans or spirits. They barely even remember these ones. In the spiritual memeory of the Barghast of Genebackis these are the oldest. So, in a culture of ancestor worship they would be revered the most.
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#30 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 10:13 PM

View PostAndorion, on 21 April 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

View PostKeysi, on 20 April 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

What??

From what's been revealed so far, the Jaghut didn't deserve all the suffering inflicted upon them. They have mostly been described as pacifists, though there is the odd tyrant, but they are a rarity and usually delt with by other Jaghut anyway.

Plus collective punishment is not a good way to go about it.

Though I am expecting a possible big reveal that they were not always pacifists perhaps....it was mentioned once I think that they did not always live in solitude, maybe we will find out that when they did live in communities they were right nasty bastards too. Just a wee thought.


I am rereading Deadhouse Gates, and there is this section, where Sormo and the Wickan mages take on the Semk god, where it ti smentioned that the Jaghut rituals of Omtose Phellack destroyed entire civilizations including those of the K'Chain Chemaille and the Forkrul Assail. So the Jaghut are not pacificsts. I don't know what gave you that idea. They just don't conduct an organized war, being hyper-individualistic (and even this is qualified RAFO for details). But they are masters of the disproportionate response.

I get you are very anti-Imass and pro-Jaghut thanks to the MoI prologue. Just read on, pay attention to Tool's PoVs and think on this line that nothing comes without a cost, so for the power and the ferocity the Imass gained through the ritual, what did they pay?




It is not just from the prologue, their persecution of the Jaghut has been mentioned several times and the Jags referred to as pacifists, such as by Kallor (unreliable of course) during that argument with the commanders in the tent, and several times by Duiker during DG when they were at the Jag families graveyard and possibly Heboric when they reach that First Empire city. Can't remember the exact quotes right now but the Tlan Imass were definitely made out to be unjustly persecuting them. All of this is more like rhetorical questions/musings though, not actually asking for answers on the plot, I am quite aware that we are only getting one side of the story so far and that they quite possibly had justifiable( in their opinion) reasons.


Damn, reading that last post by Anorion, I hadn't got t that bit yet.....from now on i'm not posting or reading forums until I have finished the book in question.




Also, with regard to Founding and Elder races, it's quite easy to imagine what each title means with reference to the plot and world backstory, I just found it strange that a partiular race or two would be refered to as Founding in the first two books and now Elder( a possible relegation-all founding would be elder but not all elders would have to be founding-presumably). Jut not sure if it's an overlooked mistake, editing issue or retcon. Not even a big issue just something that confused me a little.
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#31 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 11:29 PM

You should definitely charge people spoiler fees when they come into your thread and start sassing you with them.
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#32 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 01:41 AM

View PostKeysi, on 30 April 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 21 April 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

View PostKeysi, on 20 April 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

What??

From what's been revealed so far, the Jaghut didn't deserve all the suffering inflicted upon them. They have mostly been described as pacifists, though there is the odd tyrant, but they are a rarity and usually delt with by other Jaghut anyway.

Plus collective punishment is not a good way to go about it.

Though I am expecting a possible big reveal that they were not always pacifists perhaps....it was mentioned once I think that they did not always live in solitude, maybe we will find out that when they did live in communities they were right nasty bastards too. Just a wee thought.


I am rereading Deadhouse Gates, and there is this section, where Sormo and the Wickan mages take on the Semk god, where it ti smentioned that the Jaghut rituals of Omtose Phellack destroyed entire civilizations including those of the K'Chain Chemaille and the Forkrul Assail. So the Jaghut are not pacificsts. I don't know what gave you that idea. They just don't conduct an organized war, being hyper-individualistic (and even this is qualified RAFO for details). But they are masters of the disproportionate response.

I get you are very anti-Imass and pro-Jaghut thanks to the MoI prologue. Just read on, pay attention to Tool's PoVs and think on this line that nothing comes without a cost, so for the power and the ferocity the Imass gained through the ritual, what did they pay?




It is not just from the prologue, their persecution of the Jaghut has been mentioned several times and the Jags referred to as pacifists, such as by Kallor (unreliable of course) during that argument with the commanders in the tent, and several times by Duiker during DG when they were at the Jag families graveyard and possibly Heboric when they reach that First Empire city. Can't remember the exact quotes right now but the Tlan Imass were definitely made out to be unjustly persecuting them. All of this is more like rhetorical questions/musings though, not actually asking for answers on the plot, I am quite aware that we are only getting one side of the story so far and that they quite possibly had justifiable( in their opinion) reasons.


Damn, reading that last post by Anorion, I hadn't got t that bit yet.....from now on i'm not posting or reading forums until I have finished the book in question.




Also, with regard to Founding and Elder races, it's quite easy to imagine what each title means with reference to the plot and world backstory, I just found it strange that a partiular race or two would be refered to as Founding in the first two books and now Elder( a possible relegation-all founding would be elder but not all elders would have to be founding-presumably). Jut not sure if it's an overlooked mistake, editing issue or retcon. Not even a big issue just something that confused me a little.


Did I spoil you with the Imass thing? I didn't figure that for a spoiler because the slavery is mentioned in GotM. Sorry anyway
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#33 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 08:29 PM

Ooohh I've finished book three, as in book three of memories of ice, just about to start book 4 of memories of ice, which is titled memories of ice, not that i've finished the entirety of book three, which is called memories of ice.......what da funk did I just write there? This is confusing lol


So, more coherently, I've just finished the bit where Lady Envy and her group reach that floating city thing and meet a very beaten up T'lan I'mass and it warns that-somehow- a human army has decimated several Imass clans. Very exciting stuff. This has been one hell of a slow read for me, keep getting caught up in other things. It's been incredible so far though.

Gotta love the Seguleh, Mok seems to have a bit of a brain in him too. Plus dual wielding fighters are always the best.
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#34 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 08:54 PM

Also meant to say- What really is the script with Brood and Kallor? Brood doesn't seem to respect him, constantly tells him to shut up etc and not sure how well he rates him as a warrior. Though, he clearly does have some decent abilities, since that Jag clearly didn't want to fcuk with him, he leveled an entire continent, nearly ascended and put a curse on three elder gods. Obviously Brood is a hard bastard but he seems to suffer Kallor's existence and little else. Kallor letting Whiskeyjack bitch slap him was also strange.

Just thinking out loud here, if the answers are too spoilery then just gloat!!

Same with Crone. No one is ever nice to Crone.
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#35 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 05:29 AM

All you need to take from it is that Brood and Kallor have a long history and Kallor was an asshole for most of it.
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#36 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 08:32 PM

Haha, fair do's
Thing is, I quite like Kallor, and I know I shouldn't, he's an evil twat, no two ways about it.
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#37 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 09:25 AM

Aaahhh!!! How bloody intense is this end ( i think) chapter? And a bloody marathon at that.


Just got to the bit where Itkhovian has taken all the despair from the T'lan Imass and died from it....strange little story arc with the former Shield Anvil, very likebale character, although his timing could have been better for the Malazans-maybe waiting til after the battle and they might not have been decimated lol

Honestly there's just so much going on I don't even know where to start...Kallor...What the heck has Rake been up to?

Whiskeyjack :headbang: Poor Toc the Younger, I loved him
Aaaand all the rest, I'll need to read an in depth review once I'm finished just to consolidate everything that's happened.

Do the books continue to get better each installment the way it has so far??
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#38 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 07:16 PM

View PostKeysi, on 17 May 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Do the books continue to get better each installment the way it has so far??


You have a lot of books to go. If each one one upped all the previous ones by the time you reached the end of the series you wouldn't be able to leave the house.

The consensus seems to be that this book and DG are among the best in the series. But every book has its redeeming qualities, and is important to the overall story.
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#39 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 07:45 PM

View PostNevyn, on 19 May 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

View PostKeysi, on 17 May 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Do the books continue to get better each installment the way it has so far??


You have a lot of books to go. If each one one upped all the previous ones by the time you reached the end of the series you wouldn't be able to leave the house.

The consensus seems to be that this book and DG are among the best in the series. But every book has its redeeming qualities, and is important to the overall story.

There is no real consensus on which of the books being the best. Every time we've done a poll, it's ranged from DG, MoI, MT, RG, TtH to the people smushing DoD and tCG together.

I'll say that each of the books has its own flavor, while still retaining a "Malazaness" quality, and there's enough range that people of all walks of life glom onto different books for different reasons and they're all pretty much valid and cool.

But yeah, Erikson does get better as a technical writer as the series goes on, while shifting his focus a bit from a primarily military/action mindset to something much more expansive than that.
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#40 User is offline   benelori 

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 08:16 PM

I've been waiting for this thread yay \o/

View PostKeysi, on 11 May 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

Haha, fair do's
Thing is, I quite like Kallor, and I know I shouldn't, he's an evil twat, no two ways about it.


I like him too, despite his "evilness"...nothing's ever that black and white in this series, and the same applies to Kallor too...he just bears his grudges a bit more aggressively :)




On the topic of best of the series...Midnight Tides, Memories of Ice and Toll of the Hounds (from 3rd place to 1st)...from what I've read on these forums, people tend to gravitate around the first part of the series I think
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