[Brujah]

Karsa's Chaos Theory is not the kind of stuff that Dassem is in to.

Dassem fights to bring a natural order back to his world.

Karsa only sees their world as a failed system that needs be destroyed.


Should ever these two meet to cross weapons, I'd want front row seats to the action. Dassem and Karsa are two of the most dynamic fighters in the series, as well as two of my top 5 favorite characters. I believe the battle would be beyond epic, and would love to see it written in Erikson's hand. Alas, we don't have privy to such glories, therefore we have to decide the outcome ourselves.

I think perhaps Dassem would come out the victor here. He's the perfect swordsman, and most likely the exact type of fighter that Karsa would hate to face.

Some of Karsa's ability to defeat so many different types of both creature and man is due to his resistance to magical attacks. Dassem would most likely just be a blur of steel.

Karsa also saw Dassem fighting Rake and was awed by his skill.


Then again, it is Karsa. As Steve Erikson said when talking about Karsa, Karsa wins by sheer stubbornness. This was how he killed the Deragoth,.Hounds of Darkness. He spent a long time in the Holy Desert of Rakaru, the same place that forged the Bridgeburners.

Honestly, it might go either way.



Updates: Current Tiers

Rake, Draconus, Osseric, Edgewalker

Hood, Gothos

Shadowthrone

Quick Ben

Dassem Ultor




We need to see if Karsa will be ranked on the tier above Dassem, but below Quick Ben, if he's ranked on the same tier as Dassem,.or if he's ranked on a tier below Dassem.

Quick Ben defeated Dassem, Ganoes Paran, and Karsa, but lost to Shadowthrone.

Karsa and Dassem both lost to Hood, and both beat Tool.

Cotillion and Ganoes Paran will be sorted after these two. Cotillion has already beaten Ganoes.

[melonhead]

in my opinion this would be quite a close battle. While it is stated quite often that Karsa has exceptional speed, i dont think he would be able to compete with Dassem. The First Swords skills are just to mad.
Also, I think a lot of the time karsa gets an advantage because no one expects skill from him, they just expect him to be a savage. But i couldnt see Dassem Ultor under-estimating anyone. hes just ultra prepared all the time

edit: oh i voted for Dassem

This post has been edited by melonhead: 27 March 2015 - 09:18 AM

[Andorion]

Dassem. Skill trumps power. I am imagining an upgraded version of the Brys Beddict fight at the end of MT.

[Dayspring]

There is the part in TtH where Karsa witnesses the match between Anomander and Dassem. I forgot which adjective Karsa uses in describing the fight to Samar Dev, but seemed pretty clear that they were both his better with the sword. That being said, Karsa is top 5 best written characters in MBotF...and Dassem is not.

[Brujah]

Dayspring, on 28 March 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

There is the part in TtH where Karsa witnesses the match between Anomander and Dassem. I forgot which adjective Karsa uses in describing the fight to Samar Dev, but seemed pretty clear that they were both his better with the sword. That being said, Karsa is top 5 best written characters in MBotF...and Dassem is not.

I already mentioned the part where Karsa sees Dassem and Rake fighting and is awed by their skills. I still stand that this cannot equate to an automatic defeat of Karsa by Dassem, just because Karsa FINALLY sees a pair of badass swordsmen. In the entire series he rips Deragoth to K'Chain Nah'Ruk apart and never really sees anyone , man or beast, that he doesn't look down upon. I mean he even knocked Icarius the hell unconscious before Mappo clubbed him from behind , doing the same to Karsa to avoid their fighting.

Alas, Karsa is getting mega beaten, so my words are meaningless thus far. Oh well.

[Andorion]

Karsa never really fought anyone with skill. Dassem is probably the most skilled swordsman in the books and he has a shitload of power of his own. Karsa can be damaged and Dassem knows the exact places to cut to do the most damage. What he has to do is stay out of the way of that huge sword.

[Brujah]

Andorion, on 01 April 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Karsa never really fought anyone with skill. Dassem is probably the most skilled swordsman in the books and he has a shitload of power of his own. Karsa can be damaged and Dassem knows the exact places to cut to do the most damage. What he has to do is stay out of the way of that huge sword.

Exactly! But not because he didn't have the chance. Mostly it was because everyone and thing he DID fight, he beat the shit out of them with too much ease.

I mean, we see a Karsa that isn't quite so powerful when he first leaves the teblor, but once he spends that time in the Holy Desert of Rakaru, he emerged a force that , in my opinion, belongs near the top of any and every tier. Even at the end he kills a god, Fener, with just a swing of his newly forged Stone Sword.

Of all the weapons in the series, only Draginpur itself is more powerful and badass in my opinion. Although I must add that this does not include Cotillion's Rope, because come on, is there anything really more badass than what Erikson gave Cotillion? But I see it more as an assassin weapon or mass grave filler. I wouldn't imagine Cotillion using The Rope in a one vs one open field battle. But then again, who knows.

Therefore, of the true weapons built for close combat fighting, only Draginpur outdoes the weapon Karsa created by killing one of those Unbound T'lan Imass Gods, while chasing away the other 6. Not to mention imbuing the stone with the souls of his fallen allies.

Then Dassem would probably be wielding Grief, another top 5 most badass weapon in the series.

So yeah, Karsa never really faced anyone 'good' as you say, but that don't mean he'd lose to any of the fighters that were actually going to give him a real fight finally.

Karsa killed TWO Hounds of Dark. They were suppose to be extremely powerful beasts. Karsa rips their heads off and ties them to his horse, then rides right through the entire malazan army.

He literally beat that level 14(I believe it was level 14? The segulah he faced in Letharii in that arena) in like 5 seconds. A top 20 ranked segulah. That's not chop liver. Had it even been more of a fight for Karsa, then I would be more comfortable just putting Karsa in the corner, just like Baby in Dirty Dancing.

So just call me super stubborn if you want. I'll never believe Dassem beats Karsa until Erikson puts it in writing.

But don't let that mean I won't put Karsa in the lower tiers that his results have given him. I will stick to our polls regardless of personal feelings, but I'll still give those personal feelings in refute when I feel they're needed. Just like I personally rank Draconus above Rake, the polls speak different, so I followed suit. And lastly with Yedan Derryg. I can't believe Yedan lost or tied to anyone so far. He belongs near the top somewhere below Hood and Gothos, in my opinion. I might have to claim that the battle at the First Shore might be the single most awesome part of the entire series, and Yedan goes off like a badass nearly unparalleled as far as how Erikson wrote it.

In my opinion, Yedan eats through Brys Beddict instead of ties like our poll claims. Yedan, clutching that Hust Sword, and in that battle rage he commands while at the battle of the First Shore means only a few of the most powerful swordsman and magicians could have stopped him. I'm talking someone like Rake or Hood or POSSIBLY Dassem, but even then, I'm not sure Dassem could win. Yedan lays waste to so many that the Tiste Liosan remark , " Yedan led the initial defence of the First Shore, killing over a thousand Tiste Liosan and several soletaken dragons before being slain by Aparal Forge in Eleint form. Such was Yedan's skill with the blade that the Liosan on the other side of the gate whispered that a legion of Hust sword-wielding soldiers surely waited for them across the gate to Kharkanas. "


AGAIN, I ramble and get off topic.


Summary: Karsa just might surprise a few of these characters you guys have written him off against.

[Andorion]

Oh I accept all that stuff about Karsa. He is like a force of nature, but remember Dassem became number 1 ranked Seguleh, and his skill was orders of magnitude higher try than number 2 or 3. You can't overpower Karsa, but you can outmanuevre him. Also remember in TTH a shipwrecked, starving and parched Dassem kills a plainsbear and eats the heart. He did that when he was almost fainting. I argue he has hidden reserves of power.

Slightly off topic, Draconus is more powerful than Rake, but his problem is his anger, which I think can warp his judgement. Rake however is try the master of staying cool and making long term plans. That gives him an advantage.

[Dolmen 2.0]

The answer is definately Dassem. If we looked at each character based solely on deeds done, Karsa basicly wins the Malazan Cup, but that's not all there is to it.

Off screen we need to look at the level of ability these deeds imply.

1) Dassems presence on the battlefield is a force of morale. He was a token to the empire of virtual invincibility. He is not impossible to hurt. that crossbow wound he survived for example? But Dassem had not seen that one element whilst dealing with several hundred other threats one surely faces spear-heading an attack on heavily armed and armoured Enemy ranks. Remember the Seguleh 3 man army? Dassem managed that on his own, no Envy backing him up, just the sword keeping his back clear.

2)Skinner survived Dassem and Skinner was a tank. He could handle facing Ossercs aspect in Kurald Thyrllan. That's like walking into a Furnace. He literally is an invincible man and he SURVIVED Dassem.

3) Dassem beat Rake. Fought a man who had lived aeons. if a character has that many years of fighting experience behind them only to lose, willing or not, the opponent that kept up with you must be ridiculously close to being your match. Had swords been switched would the result be different? I have no doubt. If Rake was Serious I think Dassem could've managed to keep up, losing to endurance rather than skill level. That aside swordsmanship at the level these guys operate at is governed by willpower and Dassem matched the willpower of one of the oldest most powerful characters in the series. That speaks volumes for his own intensity and skill, currently at its peak.

Karsa boasts several parallels to the above accomplishments.

1) Karsa vs the two Deragoth for example. These animals were very powerful and old. Despite their age and power they were effectively less than brilliant animals and very, very arrogant. An exploit Post-Raraku Karsa had the stones to take advantage of. Now ask yourselves who else in the series could possibly pull this off? Icarium? Anomander Rake? Caladan Brood? Draconus? the list is long and I'm quite sure the less brutal ascendants like Cottilion or Dassem would manage.

Apsalar gave a good example of how packs of hounds could be handled with finesse. she's a shadow of Cottilion and Cottilion reveres Dassems skills. So yeah killing two deragoth, while awesome is still kinda par for the course for the upper echelons of ascendancy IMO.

2)Then there's the Icarium story. Icarium was and always will be underwhelming in that confrontation. The win from Karsa was valid but Icarium is ALOT stronger than his performance in that fight indicated. Karsas win over him is as dubious and questionable as Dassems win over Rake possibly more so. The only clear thing I can take from that is in an exchange of blows Karsa wins on opening gambits. in a battle of ascendants his chances drop exponentially with every successive blow while Dassems chances increase.

Dassem must have one of the quickest mind in the entire series to pick up on almost every threat posed on the battlefield. I don't see Karsa one shotting him like he did that Seguleh 14th. The Stomp in itself is something Dassem could shrug off with the unveiling of his own oddly unspecific power.

-IMO Karsa and Dassem are evenly matched in experience.
Teblor are very long lived, Dassem is Ascendant long lived. Karsa fought a ton of exceptional opponents, Dassem took on Armies of super soldier zombies. Neither has had much particular experience facing the others type though we don't know the full extent of Dassems First Sword campaigns.

-Karsas quick, Dassem is quickest.
Karsa is Strong, Dassem is agile and highly perceptive. Seguleh levels of speed are insane and Dassem matches if not trumps the best they have.
In this case Agility + Speed negates the efficacy of strength. All those exposed tendons...

Karsa is think out-the-box Smart, Dassem is Military general Intelligent and quick witted as only a Finesse swordsmen can be.
In such a match up chances are higher Dassem can see past the instant win strategy Karsa likes to employ.

Karsa is fueled by Chaos - Dassem is fueled by focus. these two forces more than any other will have to negate each other. Neither relies on magic much anyway and Karsas Blood makes it a no go area regardless.

I see Dassems skill and mind trumping Karsas and honestly when it comes to fights of this level mental ability determine the victor. Dassem laps Karsa in this department.

This post has been edited by Dolmen 2.0: 20 December 2015 - 01:56 PM

[Andorion]

Icarium is basically quite meek and harmless until he is aroused. Karsa never fought him at that stage. At that stage, there may not be any force that can stop him.

[melonhead]

Andorion, on 01 April 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Icarium is basically quite meek and harmless until he is aroused. Karsa never fought him at that stage. At that stage, there may not be any force that can stop him.

ahh he aint so bad. all it takes is a little love tap from the Eres'al, and fickle Iccy goes sleepy byes.

[Brujah]

@Dolmen 2.0

I don't feel the need to quote your whole post, as for the most part, it contains all your reasons for choosing Dassem, and that's exactly what I'm hoping to get from more posters. Needless to say, I would have to disagree, as I still and will always believe Karsa would find a way to beat Dassem, but there is one single aspect of your post in which I think deserves more clarification.



" 3) Dassem beat Rake. Fought a man who had lived aeons. if a character has that many years of fighting experience behind them only to loose, willing or not, the opponent that kept up with you must be ridiculously close to being your match. Had swords been switched would the result be different? I have no doubt. If Rake was Serious I think Dassem could have managed to keep up, loosing to endurance rather than skill level. That aside swordsmanship at the level these guys operate at is governed by willpower and Dassem matched the willpower of one of the Oldest most powerful characters in the series. That speaks volumes for his own intensity at its height."

Dassem did not beat Rake. Rake had literally just beheaded Hood before Dassem approaches and views the scene. Rake was working with many different characters to prevent one of the most disastrous events of the series from occurring. Within the sword, Draginpur, everyone is aware there is nearly nothing save for those fighters who'd lost a battle against Draginpur, and are seen pulling a giant cart via heavy metal chains. We learn that Chaos itself was close to claiming all those fighters, souls, and power for its side, which would be nothing short of devastating to the realm of Wu. It's not definitive that Hood allowed himself to be brought inside the sword in order to help fight against this 'chaos', but it's close enough in my opinion.

However, we do know definitively that Rake angered Dassem by killing Hood himself so that in Dassem's rage/hurt/whatever emotion that forced him to cross blades with Rake, that Rake himself was needed inside Draginpur as well in order to help prevent Chaos from catching up with the giant wagon filled to brim with agents of power from every corner of the world. Rake fights Dassem, and is able to hold back from hurting Dassem, all the while setting up the maneuver in which Dassem's sword forced Rake's Draginpur to cut himself. This sends Rake inside the sword as well, and as Dassem realizes what had actually just transpired, he is filled with agony and sorrow.

Rake toyed with Dassem. He fought a very pissed off Dassem while having to prevent himself from cutting Dassem, which would have sent Dassem inside Draginpur instead of himself. I'm sure it required immense skill to just bat aside all that Dassem had to throw at him without risking hurting him. Then to top it all off, to perform such a precise swordsmanship maneuver that allows Dassem's sword to force Rake's on sword to cut himself must have taken skill unparalleled.

Dassem was just a pawn in Rake's plans, so there's just no grounds for saying that Dassem defeated Rake, and especially no grounds for using this scene to boast of Dassem's swordsmanship.

The rest of your post, however, was quite good. You depict Dassem as the pinnacle swordsman that he is.

I still stubbornly refuse to believe Dassem beats Karsa. I still hold out hope that Karsa would find a way to win.

Yet what I believe is part of the minority beliefs, therefore we will have Dassem defeat Karsa unless a huge influx of Karsa love suddenly finds its way to our forum.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Brujah, on 01 April 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

@Dolmen 2.0

I don't feel the need to quote your whole post, as for the most part, it contains all your reasons for choosing Dassem, and that's exactly what I'm hoping to get from more posters. Needless to say, I would have to disagree, as I still and will always believe Karsa would find a way to beat Dassem, but there is one single aspect of your post in which I think deserves more clarification.



" 3) Dassem beat Rake. Fought a man who had lived aeons. if a character has that many years of fighting experience behind them only to loose, willing or not, the opponent that kept up with you must be ridiculously close to being your match. Had swords been switched would the result be different? I have no doubt. If Rake was Serious I think Dassem could have managed to keep up, loosing to endurance rather than skill level. That aside swordsmanship at the level these guys operate at is governed by willpower and Dassem matched the willpower of one of the Oldest most powerful characters in the series. That speaks volumes for his own intensity at its height."

Dassem did not beat Rake. Rake had literally just beheaded Hood before Dassem approaches and views the scene. Rake was working with many different characters to prevent one of the most disastrous events of the series from occurring. Within the sword, Draginpur, everyone is aware there is nearly nothing save for those fighters who'd lost a battle against Draginpur, and are seen pulling a giant cart via heavy metal chains. We learn that Chaos itself was close to claiming all those fighters, souls, and power for its side, which would be nothing short of devastating to the realm of Wu. It's not definitive that Hood allowed himself to be brought inside the sword in order to help fight against this 'chaos', but it's close enough in my opinion.

However, we do know definitively that Rake angered Dassem by killing Hood himself so that in Dassem's rage/hurt/whatever emotion that forced him to cross blades with Rake, that Rake himself was needed inside Draginpur as well in order to help prevent Chaos from catching up with the giant wagon filled to brim with agents of power from every corner of the world. Rake fights Dassem, and is able to hold back from hurting Dassem, all the while setting up the maneuver in which Dassem's sword forced Rake's Draginpur to cut himself. This sends Rake inside the sword as well, and as Dassem realizes what had actually just transpired, he is filled with agony and sorrow.

Rake toyed with Dassem. He fought a very pissed off Dassem while having to prevent himself from cutting Dassem, which would have sent Dassem inside Draginpur instead of himself. I'm sure it required immense skill to just bat aside all that Dassem had to throw at him without risking hurting him. Then to top it all off, to perform such a precise swordsmanship maneuver that allows Dassem's sword to force Rake's on sword to cut himself must have taken skill unparalleled.

Dassem was just a pawn in Rake's plans, so there's just no grounds for saying that Dassem defeated Rake, and especially no grounds for using this scene to boast of Dassem's swordsmanship.

The rest of your post, however, was quite good. You depict Dassem as the pinnacle swordsman that he is.

I still stubbornly refuse to believe Dassem beats Karsa. I still hold out hope that Karsa would find a way to win.

Yet what I believe is part of the minority beliefs, therefore we will have Dassem defeat Karsa unless a huge influx of Karsa love suddenly finds its way to our forum.

yes I see what you're getting at Brujah and I agree that in retrospect Rake was truly the better swordsman to have achieved all that. I'm no expert at sword-play yet I recall Rake actively engaging Dassem. I wish I had a quote on it but the impression I had was that Rake had to coax Dassem into a swing that would force his own blade into him. I actually don't see letting a sword swing that you pretend to block inflict a wound on you as being that difficult. What was difficult for Rake (in my own personal view of things) was parrying every attack that Dassem made that he could not allow to hit him. To orchestrate that fight as he wanted he couldn't afford to be whittled down by Dassems attacks. so he had to block them all. and if Rake had that much control of the fight why not just defend? no, he had to engage Dassem properly, Slow down his offence. I recall no mention of injury to Dassem but if things were that easy for Rake he could have injured Dassem physically, A kick here, an overhand blow there, but Rake had to use his Sword and he had to focus on containing the weapon and containing Dassem. That's the point I was hoping to make above.

I have to ask you though, why did Rake need those events in that particular order? Why let Dassem kill him and not some other swordsman? I mean Rake could have had anyone do it, why this particular individual? Part of me feels that he wanted to face a swordsman of that ability one last time. One of the few cracks in Rakes personality is that thirst to fight which defined his early years. I think he planned it the way he did so he could have and savour a memorable fight with what I think he saw as his martial successor. He knew about Dassems story. Remember his discussion with Kallor about the opponents Kallor would prefer not to face? those named were himself, Caladan Brood and Dassem. He held Dassem in that high an esteem.

To be defeated by the weapon he forged for vengeance, later named grief? Anomander Rake probably saw that as closing the loop perfectly. The final act of his story carried out by his spiritual successor.

[Andorion]

Since the Rake-Dassem issue has come up again I am posting this link. Its pretty definitive

My link

[Dolmen 2.0]

Andorion, on 02 April 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Since the Rake-Dassem issue has come up again I am posting this link. Its pretty definitive

My link

I have always been in awe of that post.

[Shadow Knight]

In my opinion Dassem wins.

Aswel as that I dont think quick ben should be ranked higher then dassem given dassem is dessembre, an actual ascendent/god.

And ganoes paran (the master of the deck) n cotillion another ascendent would both beat quick ben, I think people are letting favourtism of characters dictate instead of actual power,

[Brujah]

Shadow Knight, on 02 April 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

In my opinion Dassem wins.

Aswel as that I dont think quick ben should be ranked higher then dassem given dassem is dessembre, an actual ascendent/god.

And ganoes paran (the master of the deck) n cotillion another ascendent would both beat quick ben, I think people are letting favourtism of characters dictate instead of actual power,

Well, the people voting and allowing favoritism to influence their vote is something we're pretty much stuck with. There's no real way to deal with it and we've discussed it already in other threads. Hopefully the number of people voting for who they truly think should win will help offset favoritism votes, but not all votes based on a 'favorite' character are not who they also truly believe should be the winner.

For example, above you mentioned that Dassem, Ganoes Paran, and Cotillion would all beat Quick Ben, and you're claiming that he's only winning those polls because of Quick Ben's popularity, but Quick Ben isn't so many peoples' favorite for lack of valid reasoning.

Quick Ben is one of the most powerful characters in the Malazan Series, as well as one of, if not the most secretive character in the series.

"Whiskeyjack once stated that while Kruppe was the most intelligent man alive, that Quick Ben was but a short step behind."

"As a result of soulshifting, Quick Ben had absorbed the souls of eleven members of amage cabal which gave him access to at least twelve separate warrens, although he could only access amaximum of seven at any one time."

" When Quick Ben shifted the soul of Hairlock, magic which hadn't been done in a thousand years, he used a Warren which Tattersail didn't even recognize. She judged him to be her superior in the lore.


Even Shadowthrone had Quick Ben as his 'shaved knuckle,' meaning Shadowthrone viewed Quick Ben as a supreme magician and his best bet for calling on when that situation occurs and you need help from someone whom you have total faith in. This scenario played out when Shadowthrone needed the First Throne defended from some certain assailants, and out steps Icarium. Even Shadowthrone knows how dire the scenario has become. He has Trull Sengar in there deflecting attacks from Icarium that only bought some time. Quick Ben steps from the air to see an enraged Icarium. Quick Ben hits him with massive blasts of energy , knocking Icarium back each time, but even Quick Ben begins to tire and Trull pulls Quick Ben back to safety as Icarium is put to sleep by an Eres'al.

The testaments to the power of QB are long, indeed. Although a few more couldn't hurt things.

His body holds 12 souls

Kebharla, she was more a scholar than a mage - ( MoI, p.356)

Renisha, a sorcerer of High Meanas

Keluger, A Septime Priest of D'riss, the Worm of Autumn

Narkal, the warrior-mage, sworn to Fener and aspirant to the god's Mortal Sword

Ullan, the Soletaken priestess of Soliel

Set'alahd Crool, a Jhag half blood who'd once driven Dassem Ultor back half a dozen steps in furious counter attack, his sword shining with the blessing of some unknown ascendant.

Etra, a mistress of the Rashan warren

Birith'erah, mage of the Serc warren who could pull storms down from the sky

Gellid, witch of the Tennes warren

2 further bodies (unnamed)

I find the fact that Quick Ben absorbed 11 souls of a mage cabal while upon the Holy Sands of the Desert Rakaru. It's one thing to have the power and knowledge of 11 other mages inside, but one or two or more are noted to have been quite the characters in their own rights.

I'm especially interested in the underlined one. A Jhag half blood. Without even adding to that simple description, a Jhag half blood would lend Quick Ben some very amazing gifts. Since Dassem was just one of the men you claim to be more powerful than QB, I especially like that underlined part about him driving Dassem back with just his swordskill.

I don't see further reason to talk about each specific soul that Quick Ben absorbed, I will note briefly of -
Narkal, the warrior-mage, sworn to Fener and aspirant to the god's Mortal Sword
and
Ullan, the Soletaken priestess of Soliel.


As for Quick Ben vs Cotillion, this fight might be mighty close, but we do have Cotillion's on words about Quick Ben.
" "I have no hold over him these days, alas. Why? He is too powerful. Too mysterious. Too conniving. Too Hood-damned smart. Indeed, even Shadowthrone has turned his attentions elsewhere." - Cotillion on Quick Ben - (HoC, UK TPB, p.283)"

Then we are amazed when Quick Ben says in all seriousness to Bottle, later in the series after Draconus emerges again to step upon this world, and seems far stronger than ever.
And as Draconus presence is felt, most no one would seek him out, but somehow and for some reason, Quick Ben feels that it might end up himself having to deal with Draconus. And for the record, anyone that says what Ben says in all seriousness, they automatically are instantly praiseworthy in my book.

Quick Ben speaking to Bottle.
"Because Draconus changes everything, and I'm the only one who can stand against him."
Bottle gaped, and then a thin word creaked out: "You?"

Now, one of my favorite Quick Ben is more powerful than X moments, or in this case - Quick Ben is more powerful than x, y, and z, has to be the scenario where Quick Ben faces off against three soletaken eleint -
Menadore
Sheltatha Lore
Sukul Ankhadu

All three were in Dragon form as they sought a Finnest, but unfortunately, Quick Ben was there to stop such from happening. I'm going to use someone's short and simple description of what happens when 3 very powerful players decide to come at Quick Ben together.

" three Eleint were knocked to the earth by Quick Ben's sorcery and pummeled repeatedly by waves from his warrens. Sukul managed to escape the onslaught and departed to pursue the fleeing Imass while Menandore and Sheltatha turned on each other. Hedge then fired a cusser into the two and the dragons were blown to pieces."

I do apologize for the lengthy post, because that whole favoritism affecting the vote outcomes is something we are aware of but really haven't felt like it was something we could prevent.

However, your choices of Quick Ben vs Dassem/Ganoes Paran/Cotillion are where you failed to get your point across.

Quick Ben is the man when it comes to Dassem, of course. Ganoes Paran's major downfall Is his general lack of facetime in the series.

Now Quick Ben vs Cotillion I could go either way. If I walked in on their fight scene to find either man dead, then I really have no complaints.

[NefaraisBredd]

Karsa would win. He has defied Gods before and lives to
Tell the tale. He may have been in awe of Travellers' swordsmanship, however, he would close-in on him and trap the sword, making his speed useless. Then, Karsa would simply grab him by the throat and snap his crawny little neck. If Dessembrae showed up, there may be a different result but i think Karsa might actually still win. He 'bulls through' magic of all kinds, shatters elder sorcery like
Its nothing out of sheer will! (Kallor and Karsa would be an interesting fight to see). While we are on the subject, Kallor is probably the most underrated character in this forum. He is as old as hell(he has been around simce before the first empire) and it took 3 elder gods to 'chain him.' The most powerful wizards in his empire dropped a God on him and he shrugged it off! Kallor would kill Dassem and he would likely kill Karsa as well. Spinnok Durav would probably beat Dassem come to think of it.

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 08 September 2015 - 04:10 AM

[NefaraisBredd]

I agree withe the assessment of QB. He becomes one of the most powerful and certaily most secretive/surprising characters in the books. He is on par with Tayschrenn easily.

[Primateus]

Brujah, on 24 May 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Well, the people voting and allowing favoritism to influence their vote is something we're pretty much stuck with.

Well, in all honesty, you're doing the same thing yourself with...

Brujah, on 01 April 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

as I still and will always believe Karsa would find a way to beat Dassem

You are clearly showing your own favouritism by flat out stating that you will always believe that Karsa will beat Dassem.