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r/Fantasy Exclusive: Authorial Intent Discussion with Steven Erikson (Part I) Published: 2/12/2015

#1 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 06:04 PM

Source and discussion: r/Fantasy Exclusive: Authorial Intent Discussion with Steven Erikson (Part I) on Reddit

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Authorial Intent Part I

Years ago, when I first began my study of writing, I was both fortunate and cursed to land, right off the bat, a spectacularly good workshop teacher for fiction. My initiation into the craft of writing was through a teacher and mentor who knew precisely what he was doing, and by that I mean, he was conscious of everything he wrote. That was the fortunate part, as he awakened in me the same appreciation of the power of storytelling, and all that was possible provided you'd given serious thought to the effect your words would have, and could have, to a reader. But, alas, it was also a curse. I hesitate to say this, since it is bound to be misconstrued as arrogant (when the truth is, it's more desperate and frustrated than arrogant). You see, what made it a curse was that, thanks to that first teacher, I proceeded on the assumption that all writers knew precisely what they were doing: with every word, every sentence, every paragraph and every story.

Well, that was long ago, and a lot of muddy water has passed under the bridge since then. I have been privileged to find myself in the company of countless published authors: well-regarded, bestselling, highly popular authors. In each instance, it was indeed a privilege, and to this day I often feel something of an imposter in their midst. That said, I have also been witness, every now and then, to another side of that whole persona of 'popular, highly-regarded' authordom, which for lack of a better phrase, I will call the Blank Wall.

Before I explain that, I should point out that I am well aware that some writers feel that there is a value in maintaining a certain mystique when it comes to the writing process, as if to explain too much will somehow degrade the wonder (and, perchance, tarnish that aura of genius we all like to maintain before our fans, hah hah). But that always struck me as a rather narrow perch, and a dubious one at that. There is very little that is worthy of mystery to telling a story, and very little of the day-in day-out grind of being a fiction writer invites elevation to superhuman status, and besides, one of the most extraordinary wonders of writing lies precisely in what is possible, and rather than hiding one's cards (as if we published authors possess some secret code of success, jealously guarding our muse-given talent), I for one have always delighted in sharing the bones, meat and skin of narrative, particularly to aspiring writers and anyone else who might be interested.

Back to the Blank Wall. I ran face-first into that wall rather early on, in the company of that highbrow institution of exclusivity known as CanLit (an amorphous Canadian entity of 'serious' literature as promulgated primarily by the Canada Council, writing departments at universities, the Globe and Mail, provincial granting agencies, and CBC Radio). In effect, that mystique and aura was a facade presented not only to the public, but also, strangely enough, quickly and almost instinctively raised up between writers, with some underlying notion of competition feeding it, one presumes. No one seemed open to discussions on the bones, muscle and skin of writing. Granted, I was perhaps hopelessly clumsy in seeking such conversations in the midst of public venues of mutual congratulation and the maintenance of personae, but even my tentative suggestions inviting such dialogue at some later date was met again and again with that Blank Wall.

Granted, it may just be that I'm odious or something, and that each author intellectually ran for the hills at the mere suggestion of engaging me in a conversation. But, oddly enough, odious only to authors, as the rest of my social life seems healthy enough.

Over the years I have taken to attending the International Conference on the Fantastic in the Arts, a scholarly conference in which authors and writers of the genre are invited to sit in on papers presented on their work; and to, on occasion, be part of panels of authors/creators taking questions from the scholars. Being part of those panels can be both exhilarating and profoundly frustrating, as every now and then I sat beside fellow authors intent on maintaining that mystique, that high, blank, impenetrable wall. Some go so far as to respond to every question by holding up their latest book and pointing out that it's available in the book-room. Now, this may come across as a bit cruel (and who knows how many enemies I'm making here among my compatriots), but it strikes me that, of all venues and of all potential audiences, isn't the ICFA one inviting something more than a sales-pitch? We sit at our long table facing a room full of academics and scholars, and spend the hour obscuring the glass between us and them, presumably to maintain that aura of distinction. Of course, I may be even more uncharitable in this, knowing as I do that many authors are shy, often awkward, and besides, it is simpler to fall back on the cliches of 'why we write' ('I write only for myself! But thanks for reading me!'), than it is to strip things back to expose the inner workings.

But, for all that my comments here invite excoriation, another potentially more egregious thought occurs to me, and it goes back to the blessing and the curse of my first workshop teacher, and it's this: maybe many authors don't want to talk about the gristle of writing* not because they're interested in maintaining a mystique, but because they don't think about those things, or, at best, they can't articulate their reasons behind writing what they write.

*[What do I mean by 'gristle,' 'meat and bones,' etc? Well, imagine you are a published author, and you are asked 'Why did you craft that sentence the way you did? What effect were you looking for in that sequence of events? Why did you carry those particular assumptions from our world into the one you invented for your stories? Ah, but that last question ... a hint to where I am headed with this lengthy discourse here, perhaps?]

Before I continue digging this hole of mine, allow me to say that I have been fortunate over the years to find fellow writers more than eager to engage in discussions of the kind I'm advocating here. In each circumstance, I am privileged to discover writers who know precisely what they're up to, and even more wonderful, they're prepared to talk about it!

They may not know it, but they are my lifeline, and I'll not embarrass them by naming names here -- you know who you are and what you mean to me, since when it comes to that, I'm anything but coy. Also, not all of them are writers: some are scholars who take an interest in what lies behind a narrative or an invented world. Others would call themselves, quite simply and humbly, fans. My lifeline, everyone of you.

But let's get back to what's driving me crazy, shall we? It's probably time to explain what has inspired me to write this essay. Well, I've been reading certain blogs and exchanges, here in Goodreads and elsewhere, that raise issues directly relating to authorial intent; and some authors are facing and responding to a most cogent series of questions from critics/fans/readers. These questions highlight (not always in a complimentary fashion) some of the possible assumptions carried over from our world into an invented one.

As questions, most worthwhile indeed. They need to be asked, and no work available to the public can make any claim to immunity against them, just as no author can contemptuously dismiss them (regardless of whether the questions arise from someone who has read their work or not -- the nature of the question itself remains legitimate. It is its relevance that bears thinking about, not on specific grounds, but on general ones, as I will explain shortly).

Often, the discussion that follows, whether involving the author or just fans and advocates and detractors of the argument in question, can quickly bog down into semantic disputes and personal attacks intended to undermine the authority behind any statement being made. This kind of divisiveness may be inevitable, as unfortunate as it is, as the original question gets left behind.

Unlike times past, this modern age makes a commodity of both an artist's works and the artist in question; whereas pre-internet authors could feel open to both advancing or rejecting the cult of the persona. These days, there is a pressure on writers to present to the world more than just their published works, but also their own personae. This has the effect of blurring the distinction between the two, particularly in the eyes of fans (and be assured, there is a profound distinction there, though sometimes neither as profound nor as distinct as one would hope: specifically, when an author writes fiction to advance his or her politics, agenda, world-view and a host of other prejudices, in a manner that reveals their contempt for contrary opinions).

In short, we're in an age where author and the work are both fair game, both open to direct challenge by critics and readers. This is the case of playing with fire and getting occasionally burned.

I am no longer convinced that every published author has given full consideration to the host of assumptions they carry into their created world. Well. There. I said it. I will not get into specific examples here, though it wouldn't take long to assemble a fair list of 'you-had-no-idea-what-you-were-really-saying-here-did-you?' films, novels, and the like. That is, I can only assume they didn't know what they were saying, unless I choose to believe that certain creators of mass media out there have no compunction about encouraging terrorism, perpetuating bigotry, misogyny, rape and hate crimes; and are equally happy advocating revenge as the primary recourse to justice.

So, what has all this to do with the Fantasy genre? Plenty, because it's a genre that invites you (as a writer), even demands you, to invent something new, something other. But in that process of invention (of, say, an entire other world), there is the risk that certain assumptions or behaviors or attitudes from this world can slip in, unquestioned, unchallenged, unexplored. And when that happens, why, it's fair game for anyone -- anyone -- to throw down the gauntlet in challenge. And when it becomes evident, in an author's direct response, that certain elements were not thought-through, not thought-out, that author then faces the choice of mea culpa or launching into a full defense of their position, which in turn further blurs the distinction between author and the author's work in question. This is messy, but I find myself lacking sympathy: we are, after all, in an age of communication that expects the creators be present, engaged, and prepared to stand behind their words. It's not all fun and games and ego-massaging, after all. There's a price to pay for notoriety.

If, into this invented fantasy world, certain assumptions about gender roles, skin colour, sexual preference, etc, are carried ad hoc from our world, then it is incumbent that they be challenged. Why? Because it matters. Because, every time shit like that is carried over, an underlying assumption is made: that such assumptions adhere to some Natural Law, wherein arguments in defense of such choices devolve into falsehood ('history shows it was always that way' [no, it doesn't], and 'in a barbaric world a patriarchy is given' [no, it isn't], or, 'in a post-apocalyptic world where remnants of hi-tech is akin to magic, men will still rule and dominate every social hierarchy' [say what? That doesn't even make sense!]). The Natural Law argument is a fallacy; more to the point, the Fantasy genre is the perfect venue in which to utterly dismantle those assumptions, to offer alternative realities and thereby challenge the so-called givens of the human condition.

[End Part 1, feel free to discuss]

Steven Erikson


EDIT: Let me know if the type size is too large/small for those on normal monitors. I'm on a high DPI screen, so this looks right to me, but it may not look good on normal DPI screens.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 12 February 2015 - 06:07 PM

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#2 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 06:15 PM

The type size is fine. Everything about this is fine.
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Posted 12 February 2015 - 07:50 PM

This really is a great piece.

The reddit discussion is kinda fascinating because few people actually tackle the specific downstream effects caused by the work they're reading or classics of the past. They're much more into quibbling about whether they exist - which should be a foregone conclusion.

I wasn't expecting downstream effects to be the main topic of discussion, but it was fairly clear that Erikson is wanting more authors to truly consider the fallout of their words/works carefully before launching them out into the ether because there is fallout and briefcase-nuking the right things should be a good author's goal.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 12 February 2015 - 07:54 PM

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#4 User is offline   End of Disc One 

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 09:54 PM

SE is still too smart for me. As long as he keeps writing about Badass Shit in his Malazan books, I'm happy.
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#5 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:13 AM

Quote

If, into this invented fantasy world, certain assumptions about gender roles, skin colour, sexual preference, etc, are carried ad hoc from our world, then it is incumbent that they be challenged. Why? Because it matters. Because, every time shit like that is carried over, an underlying assumption is made: that such assumptions adhere to some Natural Law, wherein arguments in defense of such choices devolve into falsehood ('history shows it was always that way' [no, it doesn't], and 'in a barbaric world a patriarchy is given' [no, it isn't], or, 'in a post-apocalyptic world where remnants of hi-tech is akin to magic, men will still rule and dominate every social hierarchy' [say what? That doesn't even make sense!]). The Natural Law argument is a fallacy; more to the point, the Fantasy genre is the perfect venue in which to utterly dismantle those assumptions, to offer alternative realities and thereby challenge the so-called givens of the human condition.


This is so beautifully, inherently Malazan.

This must be one of the best pieces I have read this year. I feel like printing this out and shoving it in the faces of several people here who sniff and call fantasy authors "shallow" and "escapist"
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#6 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 08:50 AM

View PostAndorion, on 14 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Quote

If, into this invented fantasy world, certain assumptions about gender roles, skin colour, sexual preference, etc, are carried ad hoc from our world, then it is incumbent that they be challenged. Why? Because it matters. Because, every time shit like that is carried over, an underlying assumption is made: that such assumptions adhere to some Natural Law, wherein arguments in defense of such choices devolve into falsehood ('history shows it was always that way' [no, it doesn't], and 'in a barbaric world a patriarchy is given' [no, it isn't], or, 'in a post-apocalyptic world where remnants of hi-tech is akin to magic, men will still rule and dominate every social hierarchy' [say what? That doesn't even make sense!]). The Natural Law argument is a fallacy; more to the point, the Fantasy genre is the perfect venue in which to utterly dismantle those assumptions, to offer alternative realities and thereby challenge the so-called givens of the human condition.


This is so beautifully, inherently Malazan.

This must be one of the best pieces I have read this year. I feel like printing this out and shoving it in the faces of several people here who sniff and call fantasy authors "shallow" and "escapist"


Ditto.

You know, SE is one of only two authors I think I'd like to meet - because I could listen to him talk about this kind of thing forever. Man's a good egg. A seriously smart one too.
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#7 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 04:36 PM

View PostAndorion, on 14 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Quote

If, into this invented fantasy world, certain assumptions about gender roles, skin colour, sexual preference, etc, are carried ad hoc from our world, then it is incumbent that they be challenged. Why? Because it matters. Because, every time shit like that is carried over, an underlying assumption is made: that such assumptions adhere to some Natural Law, wherein arguments in defense of such choices devolve into falsehood ('history shows it was always that way' [no, it doesn't], and 'in a barbaric world a patriarchy is given' [no, it isn't], or, 'in a post-apocalyptic world where remnants of hi-tech is akin to magic, men will still rule and dominate every social hierarchy' [say what? That doesn't even make sense!]). The Natural Law argument is a fallacy; more to the point, the Fantasy genre is the perfect venue in which to utterly dismantle those assumptions, to offer alternative realities and thereby challenge the so-called givens of the human condition.


This is so beautifully, inherently Malazan.

This must be one of the best pieces I have read this year. I feel like printing this out and shoving it in the faces of several people here who sniff and call fantasy authors "shallow" and "escapist"


I'll third the vote on this. It is something which struck me about the Malazan world early on. The lack of certain real life prejudices like race and sexual orientation. In real life, both, the racist comment or it's opposite, the very politically correct 'do not mention colour' comment make a hash of it. Only when the inclusion of colour goes un-noticed or when talk about a same sex couple contains no reference to them being same sex, one only happens to work it out incidentally from the context, only then do these things achieve equality. If all writers (and journalists even more so!) treated these topics in the way Erikson does, the world would be a much better place for it.

Going back to the first half of the essay... I agree with Erikson that artists should give some thought to the effects their works are having on the public. As I said earlier, some get it right without trying, but there are many who don't. I am forever shaking my head when people tell me they don't think films can be harmful. If visual arts had no impact, we would not have advertising on TV.

I am also going to put my foot in it by saying that it is my belief that many works by artists, whether they are writers or painters, evolve without the benefit of some grand motivation, inspiration or lofty thoughts of profound meaning. In my opinion this is not necessarily a negative - untrained natural talent can get it just right and produce wonders without trying very hard. The trouble arrives when the work is labelled with those characteristics afterwards because you can only be called a proper (serious) artist if the serious critics can find these pre-determind serious meanings in your work. The 'keep it a mystery' which Erikson mentions is probably in many cases a way of deflecting from the lack of any 'it' existing, from trying to get these serious critic hounds off your scent.

If we valued all artistic output without the benefit of any knowledge of the artist, any possible meanings, any history etc. then truly outstanding work would survive that. There would be many, currently highly acclaimed works, which would not be given a second glance. I think there won't be anyone here who would doubt that the Malazan books would have no problem passing the test just based on quality of content.
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#8 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 04:50 PM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 14 February 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 14 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Quote

If, into this invented fantasy world, certain assumptions about gender roles, skin colour, sexual preference, etc, are carried ad hoc from our world, then it is incumbent that they be challenged. Why? Because it matters. Because, every time shit like that is carried over, an underlying assumption is made: that such assumptions adhere to some Natural Law, wherein arguments in defense of such choices devolve into falsehood ('history shows it was always that way' [no, it doesn't], and 'in a barbaric world a patriarchy is given' [no, it isn't], or, 'in a post-apocalyptic world where remnants of hi-tech is akin to magic, men will still rule and dominate every social hierarchy' [say what? That doesn't even make sense!]). The Natural Law argument is a fallacy; more to the point, the Fantasy genre is the perfect venue in which to utterly dismantle those assumptions, to offer alternative realities and thereby challenge the so-called givens of the human condition.


This is so beautifully, inherently Malazan.

This must be one of the best pieces I have read this year. I feel like printing this out and shoving it in the faces of several people here who sniff and call fantasy authors "shallow" and "escapist"


Ditto.

You know, SE is one of only two authors I think I'd like to meet - because I could listen to him talk about this kind of thing forever. Man's a good egg. A seriously smart one too.


Who's the other one?
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#9 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 04:53 PM

Quote

I am also going to put my foot in it by saying that it is my belief that many works by artists, whether they are writers or painters, evolve without the benefit of some grand motivation, inspiration or lofty thoughts of profound meaning. In my opinion this is not necessarily a negative - untrained natural talent can get it just right and produce wonders without trying very hard. The trouble arrives when the work is labelled with those characteristics afterwards because you can only be called a proper (serious) artist if the serious critics can find these pre-determind serious meanings in your work. The 'keep it a mystery' which Erikson mentions is probably in many cases a way of deflecting from the lack of any 'it' existing, from trying to get these serious critic hounds off your scent.


Completely agree on this. While some works of true genius spontaeously evolve into great meanings, critic often cause unwarranted confusion when they tend to impose certain interpretaions which would often have baffled the original artist.
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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:40 PM

View PostAndorion, on 15 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 14 February 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 14 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Quote

If, into this invented fantasy world, certain assumptions about gender roles, skin colour, sexual preference, etc, are carried ad hoc from our world, then it is incumbent that they be challenged. Why? Because it matters. Because, every time shit like that is carried over, an underlying assumption is made: that such assumptions adhere to some Natural Law, wherein arguments in defense of such choices devolve into falsehood ('history shows it was always that way' [no, it doesn't], and 'in a barbaric world a patriarchy is given' [no, it isn't], or, 'in a post-apocalyptic world where remnants of hi-tech is akin to magic, men will still rule and dominate every social hierarchy' [say what? That doesn't even make sense!]). The Natural Law argument is a fallacy; more to the point, the Fantasy genre is the perfect venue in which to utterly dismantle those assumptions, to offer alternative realities and thereby challenge the so-called givens of the human condition.


This is so beautifully, inherently Malazan.

This must be one of the best pieces I have read this year. I feel like printing this out and shoving it in the faces of several people here who sniff and call fantasy authors "shallow" and "escapist"


Ditto.

You know, SE is one of only two authors I think I'd like to meet - because I could listen to him talk about this kind of thing forever. Man's a good egg. A seriously smart one too.


Who's the other one?



JK Rowling. I think she'd be interesting to talk with, but for different reasons from SE.

Well, I say different reasons - different in some ways. In both cases its in part because their books did very important things for me, but it was at different points in my life so it feels different if that makes sense.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 16 February 2015 - 09:59 AM

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 06:47 PM

FYI, this is on SE's website now.
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
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#12 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 01:46 AM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 15 February 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 15 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 14 February 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 14 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Quote

If, into this invented fantasy world, certain assumptions about gender roles, skin colour, sexual preference, etc, are carried ad hoc from our world, then it is incumbent that they be challenged. Why? Because it matters. Because, every time shit like that is carried over, an underlying assumption is made: that such assumptions adhere to some Natural Law, wherein arguments in defense of such choices devolve into falsehood ('history shows it was always that way' [no, it doesn't], and 'in a barbaric world a patriarchy is given' [no, it isn't], or, 'in a post-apocalyptic world where remnants of hi-tech is akin to magic, men will still rule and dominate every social hierarchy' [say what? That doesn't even make sense!]). The Natural Law argument is a fallacy; more to the point, the Fantasy genre is the perfect venue in which to utterly dismantle those assumptions, to offer alternative realities and thereby challenge the so-called givens of the human condition.


This is so beautifully, inherently Malazan.

This must be one of the best pieces I have read this year. I feel like printing this out and shoving it in the faces of several people here who sniff and call fantasy authors "shallow" and "escapist"


Ditto.

You know, SE is one of only two authors I think I'd like to meet - because I could listen to him talk about this kind of thing forever. Man's a good egg. A seriously smart one too.


Who's the other one?



JK Rowling. I think she'd be interesting to talk with, but for different reasons from SE.

Well, I say different reasons - different in some ways. In both cases its in part because their books did very important things for me, but it was at different points in my life so it feels different if that makes sense.





i remember reading a few interviews of Rowling from before the time the Potter movies got made. She came over as very relatable and approachable
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#13 User is offline   Ribald 

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 09:10 PM

It looks like SE is responding to a number of the comments being made, which is pretty cool.
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Posted 21 February 2015 - 09:45 AM

Part II of the discussion is now up:
http://www.reddit.co...tent_discussion


And Janny Wurts chimed in on the discussion too.

This post has been edited by Ribald: 21 February 2015 - 10:10 AM

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:27 PM

Quote

Thanks for that response. I find it very heartening to suggest that most fantasy fans are romantics at heart. The first novels I ever read were by Edgar Rice Burroughs, writing otherworld adventure romances (though I would have cringed at hearing such a description back when I was eleven).

Further, I agree that passion is essential to longevity in literature, film and whatnot, and I do hope you are right when you say that the present nihilistic stuff is a flash in the pan. I feel the same, but there is a kind of insipid denigration going on (not necessarily a conscious one) that mocks both passion and romance even as it exploits those qualities to bitter ends. This is why 'grim dark' in Fantasy strikes me as somewhat ... dare I say it? Immature.

Am I being too cynical? I don't think so, but I can see how you might read me that way with these essays. I'm just waving a flag here.




That there. Got it in one for me!

Edit: Is there a way to make the quote not come up dark like that?

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 22 February 2015 - 08:55 AM

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 05:28 PM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 21 February 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:



Quote

Thanks for that response. I find it very heartening to suggest that most fantasy fans are romantics at heart. The first novels I ever read were by Edgar Rice Burroughs, writing otherworld adventure romances (though I would have cringed at hearing such a description back when I was eleven). Further, I agree that passion is essential to longevity in literature, film and whatnot, and I do hope you are right when you say that the present nihilistic stuff is a flash in the pan. I feel the same, but there is a kind of insipid denigration going on (not necessarily a conscious one) that mocks both passion and romance even as it exploits those qualities to bitter ends. This is why 'grim dark' in Fantasy strikes me as somewhat ... dare I say it? Immature.

Am I being too cynical? I don't think so, but I can see how you might read me that way with these essays. I'm just waving a flag here.





That there. Got it in one for me!

Edit: Is there a way to make the quote not come up dark like that?


Grimdark is immature....Posted Image Bet that ruffles a few feathers.

As for the quote you could try "Remove Formatting" the option at the top right of the Editor
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