[RashanThyr]

After reading about how the Tiste Liosan became soletaken eleint by summoning then trapping an eleint, I began to wonder why there were no human soletaken dragons. I mean, surely it may have taken a group of Tiste Liosan, but surely Tayschrenn or Hairlock would have attempted the feat, and with the assistance of other mages, succeeded. Do you think it's possible, and if so, why haven't we seen any?

[theocean]

RashanThyr, on 05 February 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

After reading about how the Tiste Liosan became soletaken eleint by summoning then trapping an eleint, I began to wonder why there were no human soletaken dragons. I mean, surely it may have taken a group of Tiste Liosan, but surely Tayschrenn or Hairlock would have attempted the feat, and with the assistance of other mages, succeeded. Do you think it's possible, and if so, why haven't we seen any?

Dragons are hard to find anymore...? I think Rake and his Andi at some point blocked their warren from the other warrens, excepting a few Elients. I mean there are plenty of human soletaken. It seems like the elient soletaken are mostly acient beings, probably before the realm was cut off from the others.... Guessing it was easier to find dragons in other times and other places. I dont remember many pure elients in the malazan world other than the ones who fought Raest in GOTM. The only ones we really see in the other worlds or warrens are dragons that are killed or chained.

[HoosierDaddy]

Humans are already OP in their rabbitesque breeding. Also, yeah. No pure dragons running 'round Wu to kill and drink from.

[Vengeance]

HoosierDaddy, on 06 February 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Humans are already OP in their rabbitesque breeding. Also, yeah. No pure dragons running 'round Wu to kill and drink from.

*cough Silanah cough*. Of course she is with the tiste and anomandaris gf. So probably not the best one to go after.

[HoosierDaddy]

She had been around in Moon's Spawn. Seems a great place to try to invade.... (Point granted.)

She's now back in cAndiiland.

[theocean]

Vengeance, on 06 February 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 06 February 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Humans are already OP in their rabbitesque breeding. Also, yeah. No pure dragons running 'round Wu to kill and drink from.

*cough Silanah cough*. Of course she is with the tiste and anomandaris gf. So probably not the best one to go after.

Just to keep the convo going... Could Tayshrenn had challenged and actually went after her? He seemed to hold his own at Pale, and that was with other things going on as well. As the series extended i feel like Tays power was under appreciated ealrier on.

[amphibian]

theocean, on 06 February 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

Just to keep the convo going... Could Tayshrenn had challenged and actually went after her? He seemed to hold his own at Pale, and that was with other things going on as well. As the series extended i feel like Tays power was under appreciated ealrier on.

Power-wise, he may have been able to imprison Silanah and extract whatever dragon transmogrifying element from her he needed.

However, I do not think he wanted to do that.

There are some very interesting things in ICE's books regarding Tayschrenn's plans and desires, so you may find answers there.

[Vengeance]

theocean, on 06 February 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 06 February 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 06 February 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Humans are already OP in their rabbitesque breeding. Also, yeah. No pure dragons running 'round Wu to kill and drink from.

*cough Silanah cough*. Of course she is with the tiste and anomandaris gf. So probably not the best one to go after.

Just to keep the convo going... Could Tayshrenn had challenged and actually went after her? He seemed to hold his own at Pale, and that was with other things going on as well. As the series extended i feel like Tays power was under appreciated ealrier on.

Could Tays have imprisoned Silanah? Most likely if he was only battling her. I think that if Ano and the other tisti arch mages and got involve Tays would not have been able to. I think that he might have been able to hold his own against them. But surviving is different then being able to successfully defeating and then using Silanah's blood for the ritual. Plus at the time Anomandaris had Dragnipur which he would most likely unleash if he was pressed. Remember that Anomandaris alone was able to hold off 4 high mages. True Tays betrayl of them was what ultimately did them in. Even then Anomandaris was more concerned with preserving Moons spawn then with eliminating the malazan forces. In order for Tays to get Silanah he would have to go through Rake, which I see no reason for him to do.

[theocean]

I know Tay had no desire at all for it, just figuring hes the only human capable.

i am always left wondering what really wouldve happened at Pale, if it was a straightforward Rake VS Tay without any other circumstances. Rake had to protect moon spawn, Tay had to show off an impressive attack on Moons Spawn as well as take out mages on his side basically without it being obvious... and the mages of pretty high caliber.

[HoosierDaddy]

Give me Rake all day, everyday. He's the Andii "Arch-Mage" and a kickass swordsman. So, if it's a draw between magical prowess, here comes Dragnipur to the face. Tay would have been a good addition to fight Chaos.

[worry]

Absolutely.

[theocean]

I agree. Rake is the truth. I just always wonder about tay and the qbs real power. The theme over and over in mbotf is underestimating humans gets your ass bit. So I just have my wonders about them two fellas.

This post has been edited by theocean: 07 February 2015 - 03:35 PM

[RashanThyr]

Well, we know from Memories of Ice that at least Korlat thinks that Tay's power is ridiculous. I mean, he uses Telas to disintegrate an entire side of a fortress, and take out 12 enemy mages in the process, and that's with the poisoning of the warrens. After this, she wonders how Rake could have stood agains him.

[Andorion]

RashanThyr, on 07 February 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Well, we know from Memories of Ice that at least Korlat thinks that Tay's power is ridiculous. I mean, he uses Telas to disintegrate an entire side of a fortress, and take out 12 enemy mages in the process, and that's with the poisoning of the warrens. After this, she wonders how Rake could have stood agains him.

Simple answer: Rake is awesome. Recall Rake went hunting pureblood Eleint. He and Kilimandaros decided to save Emurlahn from the dragons, so they went dragon-hunting. At some Kilimandaros turned againt him (though when exactly I can't remember) and that didn't even faze him. And he came out with Silanah as companion.

[theocean]

Andorion, on 07 February 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

RashanThyr, on 07 February 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Well, we know from Memories of Ice that at least Korlat thinks that Tay's power is ridiculous. I mean, he uses Telas to disintegrate an entire side of a fortress, and take out 12 enemy mages in the process, and that's with the poisoning of the warrens. After this, she wonders how Rake could have stood agains him.

Simple answer: Rake is awesome. Recall Rake went hunting pureblood Eleint. He and Kilimandaros decided to save Emurlahn from the dragons, so they went dragon-hunting. At some Kilimandaros turned againt him (though when exactly I can't remember) and that didn't even faze him. And he came out with Silanah as companion.

Was he soletaken at the point? Im guesing yes since he was getting all cuddly with Silanah.

[Andorion]

theocean, on 09 February 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Andorion, on 07 February 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

RashanThyr, on 07 February 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Well, we know from Memories of Ice that at least Korlat thinks that Tay's power is ridiculous. I mean, he uses Telas to disintegrate an entire side of a fortress, and take out 12 enemy mages in the process, and that's with the poisoning of the warrens. After this, she wonders how Rake could have stood agains him.

Simple answer: Rake is awesome. Recall Rake went hunting pureblood Eleint. He and Kilimandaros decided to save Emurlahn from the dragons, so they went dragon-hunting. At some Kilimandaros turned againt him (though when exactly I can't remember) and that didn't even faze him. And he came out with Silanah as companion.

Was he soletaken at the point? Im guesing yes since he was getting all cuddly with Silanah.

Quite possibly he was. I am really reaching here, because I think this was in one of the prologues and my memory is fuzzy, but there was some mention of Rake giving Osserc the slip, while Osserc was "flying around". Rake calls him an idiot. If flying means dragon flying, and if Osserc was Soletaken Eleint by this time, Rake cerainly was.

Now, regarding Rake's Eleint power, the following extracts are form GotM:

Quote

Five dragons banked in perfect formation, their heads dipping to watch him as they glided back in his direction. 'Estideein eleint,' he whispered, in his Jaghut tongue. Four were black, barbed in silver along the wings and flying two to either side of the fifth dragon, this one red and twice as large as the others.

So thats Silanah's size compared to other Andii Soletaken Eleint. But Rake compared to Silanah:

Quote

Alone once again, Rake turned his attention to the street below. An apparition arrived. It paused to sniff the air, then began changing – veering. A Lord of the Galayn, and a Soletaken.
'Well,' the Lord of Moon's Spawn growled, 'so am I.' The Tiste Andii spread his arms wide, then rose upward. Kurald Galain sorcery swirled around him, blending his clothing, his massive sword, drawing all inward to the shape he now climbed towards. The veering was smooth, eloquent, as jet-black wings unfolded from his shoulders. Flesh and bone surged in size, changed in shape.
As he flew higher, eyes fixed on the stars, Anomander Rake became a black dragon, silver-maned and dwarfing even Silanah. His eyes gleamed silver, the vertical slits of the pupils dilating. His breath gusted in heavy grunts, the snap of his wings loud amid the deep groan of muscle on bone. His chest swelled to draw in the cold, dry air, and power filled his being.

Key phrase: "dwarfing even Silanah"

Now we know after the Crippled God how powerful Silanah was. She slaughtered the Liosan Eleint Soletaken, took on Tiam's Eleint storm etc. Rake was more powerful than her. Conclusion: Rake is awesome.

[worry]

I think it's been well-explained why humans haven't done it the way the TL do, but it's worth mentioning that Rud Elalle is half-human, and everyone seems to be concerned over how powerful he has the potential to be.

[Aptorian]

Andorion, on 10 February 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

Key phrase: "dwarfing even Silanah"

Now we know after the Crippled God how powerful Silanah was. She slaughtered the Liosan Eleint Soletaken, took on Tiam's Eleint storm etc. Rake was more powerful than her. Conclusion: Rake is awesome.

Size =/= power. Or does it?

Rake is a strange entity. He is both the chosen of a god, knight of a warren, ascendant, a worshipped god, a soletaken eleint and an extremely strong mage.

His dragon form seems more like an extension of his power than his eleint blood.

This post has been edited by Apt: 10 February 2015 - 11:03 AM

[Jaime Lannister]

theocean, on 06 February 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

I know Tay had no desire at all for it, just figuring hes the only human capable.

i am always left wondering what really wouldve happened at Pale, if it was a straightforward Rake VS Tay without any other circumstances. Rake had to protect moon spawn, Tay had to show off an impressive attack on Moons Spawn as well as take out mages on his side basically without it being obvious... and the mages of pretty high caliber.

Your hypothetical harkens back to a quote from tCG:

Quote

Had Anomander Rake veered into a dragon, Tayschrenn would have had no choice but to turn his fullest powers upon him. By the time the two were done, all of Pale would have been ashes

That's some fairly lofty hype for Tayschrenn. It's a shame he was never really given an opportunity to demonstrate his abilities. When it was said he agreed to be Quick's shaved knuckle in tBH I was really excited at the prospect of seeing the most powerful human mages fighting side by side, and more than a little disappointed when it never materialized. I was certain Quick would turn to him for recourse against Icarium or the Nah'ruk -- I wonder if Erikson had simply forgotten about it?

This post has been edited by Jaime Lannister: 29 June 2015 - 08:46 PM

[worry]

It's possible (and yah, kinda disappointing). Another reading of that though is that QB is there so Tayschrenn doesn't have to be.