[heavymetaltroll]

So with all the speculation running rampant about the Kharkanas trilogy and how it seems to be disproving much we held as truth, I have come up with a crazy theory that may just be plausible.

While everyone seems to believe that the events in FoD occur on Wu, it seems entirely possible, maybe even probable, that the events are actually occurring on another world or, and this is where my theory gets crazy, on one of the moons of Wu. Whilst I have no evidence to support this theory, there isn't really any evidence to disprove it either. From very early in the series (I believe even as early as GotM) we have numerous mentions and hints of other moons and civilizations warring upon them. With it stated as fact that Wu did at one time have at least several other moons other than the current remaining one that are no longer visible, it is not so big a leap to think Kharkanas, Omtose Phellack and the rest are actually on one of those moons rather than on Wu.

The ramifications of this could be numerous and far-reaching. The shattering of Kurald Emurlahn may not be so much the shattering of the elder warren of shadow, but the shattering of the moon. The other elder warrens may not in fact be separate realms at all but larger fragments of the shattered moon saved by the intervention of Azathanai, Elder gods and collective racial power and deposited into K'ruls warrens, growing into the Elder warrens over time. The "ship" that the High King is mentioned to be building could even potentially not be a sailing ship, but a form of space ship.

Well that's my crazy theory, hope you all enjoy it. Please let me know any feedback and thoughts you may have in response to this insane theory

[D'rek]

I love it!

[Aptorian]

I really like the sundering/shattering angle on this.

However, how does chunks of warrens then end up for example being used in rituals by The First Empire? Didn't Dryjna preside over a chunk as well? Are we talking about warrens being sympathetically bound to asteroids in space?

[heavymetaltroll]

Apt, on 01 February 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

I really like the sundering/shattering angle on this.

However, how does chunks of warrens then end up for example being used in rituals by The First Empire? Didn't Dryjna preside over a chunk as well? Are we talking about warrens being sympathetically bound to asteroids in space?

That is one way it could work. Another way to look at it would be similar to the way the tides are affected by the moon. Even though not still physically there they still have influence to a greater or lesser degree. Thus Dryjnas chunk may have become fixed by her control, waxing and waning according to the years of the apocalyptic. This would also explain the wandering of the shadow realm and its overlaying of places. Perhaps the moon when it shattered was more or less over 7 cities explaining why there seem to be so many more fragments active in the regions. Perhaps its even a mix of the two.

P.S. I don't think Dryjna was actually presiding over a chunk but was just the prophet. If memory serves the actual goddess of the apocalypse was a fallen T'lan Imass, the former wife of Onrack the Broken though I I can't recall her name.

[Traveller]

I'm currently reading Midnight Tides, and this link between the warrens of Light, Dark and Shadow and the moons around Wu has occurred to me too.

The description of the moons themselves - at least one is in full light, clearly visible. Others are also present, at least one of which is never actually visible as it is in Wu's shadow. And since more than two are mentioned ( I think in the realm in which Udinaas travels through) there could be a third, sometimes visible, sometimes not.

These could correspond with Light, Dark and Shadow. I like the possibilty that the sundering of Shadow might be linked to the destroyed moon; if the moon was shattered, so too would the warren be - leading to the scattered fragments of varying sizes that were then free to be claimed by other ascendents or beings.

The two flaws that I can see already though are the timing of the moons physical destruction, and the fact that the realm of Shadow was (as stated by the Jaghut in House of Chains) apparently sundered by the destruction of the Azath house in the realm by Icariums attempt to free his father.

It seems unlikely that the destruction of the warren resulted in the destruction of the moon; as that was, iirc, caused by a Jade Giant impact? But as warrens are often formed of landscapes from certain times in the past, frozen in stasis, maybe the moons shattering resulted in the destruction of Shadow in the past.

It would be interesting though if Kurald Galain was linked to a moon in perpetual darkness - that Thyrlan (s?) was in
full sunlight, and Emurlahn alternated in its orbit around Wu. The different Tiste 'races' are a single race to begin with, which each go their separate ways; each using a different warren from the moons realms.

Who then later return to Wu, as 'peoples not of this world'.

It would also mean that Mother Dark, Father Light etc, far from being universal elemental forms/Gods, are actually very much closer to home - more the total darkness of a local moon in darkness than say, the darkness before creation, or of the Abyss.

There are probably 101 problems with this theory, feel free to totally dispute it. Aspects of it just seem.. plausable though.

Maybe Fall of Light will help..

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 March 2015 - 11:55 AM

[heavymetaltroll]

Traveller, on 08 March 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

I'm currently reading Midnight Tides, and this link between the warrens of Light, Dark and Shadow and the moons around Wu has occurred to me too.

The description of the moons themselves - at least one is in full light, clearly visible. Others are also present, at least one of which is never actually visible as it is in Wu's shadow. And since more than two are mentioned ( I think in the realm in which Udinaas travels through) there could be a third, sometimes visible, sometimes not.

These could correspond with Light, Dark and Shadow. I like the possibilty that the sundering of Shadow might be linked to the destroyed moon; if the moon was shattered, so too would the warren be - leading to the scattered fragments of varying sizes that were then free to be claimed by other ascendents or beings.

The two flaws that I can see already though are the timing of the moons physical destruction, and the fact that the realm of Shadow was (as stated by the Jaghut in House of Chains) apparently sundered by the destruction of the Azath house in the realm by Icariums attempt to free his father.

It seems unlikely that the destruction of the warren resulted in the destruction of the moon; as that was, iirc, caused by a Jade Giant impact? But as warrens are often formed of landscapes from certain times in the past, frozen in stasis, maybe the moons shattering resulted in the destruction of Shadow in the past.

It would be interesting though if Kurald Galain was linked to a moon in perpetual darkness - that Thyrlan (s?) was in
full sunlight, and Emurlahn alternated in its orbit around Wu. The different Tiste 'races' are a single race to begin with, which each go their separate ways; each using a different warren from the moons realms.

Who then later return to Wu, as 'peoples not of this world'.

It would also mean that Mother Dark, Father Light etc, far from being universal elemental forms/Gods, are actually very much closer to home - more the total darkness of a local moon in darkness than say, the darkness before creation, or of the Abyss.

There are probably 101 problems with this theory, feel free to totally dispute it. Aspects of it just seem.. plausable though.

Maybe Fall of Light will help..

Judging by some of your comments I'm going to assume you haven't read FoD. I wasn't talking about any of the moons present in the main series, but another that was destroyed millenia before the events in MBotF, an event so far in the past that it has mostly been forgotten and only vague distorted legends of a shattered realm remain.

I do really like your theory about the moons relating directly to light, shadow and dark, it is a very interesting idea and one that hadn't occured to me previously. Hell, it could even support my theory, with the third moon you mention, one sometimes visible and sometimes not, literally being a shadow moon, as in the shadow of the former moon that had been destroyed.

[Traveller]

I have read FoD, but it's been a while, and no second read through.. yet. I'm into Midnight Tides now, and I just read Corlo's explanation of the Warrens, Holds and realms to Seren. He believes the realms belonging to certain warrens are on completely different worlds.. describing some with many moons, some with more than one sun.

He also mentions the destruction of Emurlahn millennia ago, with the Edur having access to but one fragment. So is it ok to assume that the Andii and Edur originated from the world in FoD, but their division results in their occupation of separate realms, that are themselves on different world's? I can't remember enough of FoD.. is Kharkanas revealed to actually be on Wu, or could the entire realm of Kurald Galain be on a world with no sun?

This post has been edited by Traveller: 13 March 2015 - 06:23 AM

[Puck]

No idea about Kharkanas, but blink and you miss this: in HoC Trull recounts the history of the Tiste Edur to Onrack and claims that the Edur actually lived in the Nascent for a while before moving to Wu..

Quote

'The Tiste Edur were in my world,' Onrack said as he drew out his spark stones, 'just after the coming of the Tiste Andii. Once numerous, leaving signs of passage in the snow, on the beaches, in deep forests.'
'There are far fewer of us now,' Trull Sengar said. 'We came here – to this place [the Nascent] – from Mother Dark, whose children had banished us. We did not think they would pursue, but they did. And upon the shattering of this warren, we fled yet again – to your world, Onrack. Where we thrived…'
'Until your enemies found you once more.'
'Yes. The first of those were… fanatical in their hatred. There were great wars – unwitnessed by anyone, fought as they were within darkness, in hidden places of shadow. [...]'

Not sure how reliable the information is, but it certainly indicated that the Tiste Edur at least left Kurald Galain and lived in a separate realm. Possibly the Nascent is the biggest piece of Kurald Emurlahn (can't remember any definite quote on that), and as such the 'home' realm of the Tiste Edur. Also, pretty sure it has two suns instead of one or some such.

This post has been edited by Puck: 13 March 2015 - 10:42 AM

[Gorefest]

The Tiste are always described as 'invaders'. They came from a different realm than the 'founder races', although in FoD we learn that some of these founder races (Jaghut, Imass) were also present in the Tiste realm. So either they migrated much earlier than the Tiste, or they were already present in various realms and the Tiste weren't yet at the time of FoD. In Wu, it seems that the K'Chain and the Forkrul Assail (and the Thel Akai?) were the original inhabitants.

Never thought of the realms as moons, I just saw them as alternative dimensions that border each other and that, with enough power or will, you can travel between these dimensions. The various demonic worlds suggest the same.

[heavymetaltroll]

Traveller, on 13 March 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

I have read FoD, but it's been a while, and no second read through.. yet. I'm into Midnight Tides now, and I just read Corlo's explanation of the Warrens, Holds and realms to Seren. He believes the realms belonging to certain warrens are on completely different worlds.. describing some with many moons, some with more than one sun.

He also mentions the destruction of Emurlahn millennia ago, with the Edur having access to but one fragment. So is it ok to assume that the Andii and Edur originated from the world in FoD, but their division results in their occupation of separate realms, that are themselves on different world's? I can't remember enough of FoD.. is Kharkanas revealed to actually be on Wu, or could the entire realm of Kurald Galain be on a world with no sun?

The assumption that the Tiste races were from completely separate worlds held true in the main series, but FoD seems to have turned that completely on its head. It is now just as easy to assume that they were all on the same world and their individual realms were seperated at a later date, possibly through use of the Terrondai, the shattering, or a combination of the two. As to the world in FoD having no sun, it currently seems to be a world much like Wu, and the eternal darkness of Kurald Galain appears to happen at a later date, though not to far away with Draconus having given Mother Dark the Terondai of Dark.

Puck, on 13 March 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

No idea about Kharkanas, but blink and you miss this: in HoC Trull recounts the history of the Tiste Edur to Onrack and claims that the Edur actually lived in the Nascent for a while before moving to Wu..

Quote

'The Tiste Edur were in my world,' Onrack said as he drew out his spark stones, 'just after the coming of the Tiste Andii. Once numerous, leaving signs of passage in the snow, on the beaches, in deep forests.'
'There are far fewer of us now,' Trull Sengar said. 'We came here – to this place [the Nascent] – from Mother Dark, whose children had banished us. We did not think they would pursue, but they did. And upon the shattering of this warren, we fled yet again – to your world, Onrack. Where we thrived…'
'Until your enemies found you once more.'
'Yes. The first of those were… fanatical in their hatred. There were great wars – unwitnessed by anyone, fought as they were within darkness, in hidden places of shadow. [...]'

Not sure how reliable the information is, but it certainly indicated that the Tiste Edur at least left Kurald Galain and lived in a separate realm. Possibly the Nascent is the biggest piece of Kurald Emurlahn (can't remember any definite quote on that), and as such the 'home' realm of the Tiste Edur. Also, pretty sure it has two suns instead of one or some such.

The information is pretty unreliable given the millenia and numerous generations of Edur that have passed, though the fact that the Edur came from Emurlahn and the Andii from Galain is pretty set in stone. The only debate is weather before the shattering they were indeed separate worlds, or simply adjacent regions on the same world.

Gorefest, on 13 March 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

The Tiste are always described as 'invaders'. They came from a different realm than the 'founder races', although in FoD we learn that some of these founder races (Jaghut, Imass) were also present in the Tiste realm. So either they migrated much earlier than the Tiste, or they were already present in various realms and the Tiste weren't yet at the time of FoD. In Wu, it seems that the K'Chain and the Forkrul Assail (and the Thel Akai?) were the original inhabitants.

Never thought of the realms as moons, I just saw them as alternative dimensions that border each other and that, with enough power or will, you can travel between these dimensions. The various demonic worlds suggest the same.

The Founder Races being the original races of Wu has since been disproved in Assail, where we learn that the Founding was just an agreement between the participating Races to not fight and destroy the world. It seems likely that if FoD is not in fact occurring on Wu, then all the races present would in fact be invaders, Imass, Jaghut, Forulkan, Thel Akai and Jheck. I think it is also implied in MBotF that the K'Chain also came from elsewhere. The only race I could see being present in various realms at this time would be the Thel Akai, who are consistently acknowledged as the eldest race, and it would make sense if the Azathanai had taken them to various worlds during their travels. Thus Thel Akai 1st, then K'Chain followed by Jaghut, Imass, Forulkan and Jheck, with the Tiste coming much later to the party.

[peaked in highschool osserc]

I like this theory and it all so makes since why their is a year of dryjhna in seven cities. Just how the moon waxes and wanes the power of the whirlwind godess fluctuates.

[D'iver koala bear]

I think the only species to originate on wu is the k chain and I don't think they came from dragons but evolved from dinosaurs that crust was digging up and putting together and all other species invaded wu as we know there's a high king across the vitr sea so that must mean humans of some kind and that all the worlds are very separate as they have different moon, constellations and suns but they all just overlap each other

[heavymetaltroll]

D, on 25 March 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

I think the only species to originate on wu is the k chain and I don't think they came from dragons but evolved from dinosaurs that crust was digging up and putting together and all other species invaded wu as we know there's a high king across the vitr sea so that must mean humans of some kind and that all the worlds are very separate as they have different moon, constellations and suns but they all just overlap each other

Not even the K'Chain are from Wu, just one of the 1st to arrive. Interesting point about the High Kingdom being across the Vitr, that hadn't occurred to me.

[lobo the wolfman]

Not sure about the theory that its all happening on the moon, but after reading FoL,

Spoiler

I got the impression that Lether was built on top of the ruins of Omtose Phellack due to the Azath house there that holds the Seregahl.