[Morgoth]

D, on 19 September 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 September 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

rant, on 19 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'll never understand why you city-slickers enjoy having 3 million people rubbing elbows with you.

Oh, I don't love it. Both my wife and I are hampering to get out to the suburbs at least...but housing prices in southern ontario are still way too insane.

I've lived on the outskirts of a town of 1400. I've lived in the downtown of a city of 1 million. I loved both in their own ways, but moving to the suburbs absolutely terrifies me

Once you unshackle your inner soccer mom there's no going back.

[rant]

LinearPhilosopher, on 19 September 2018 - 05:28 PM, said:

Diversity and options. Example, theres a group in toronto that organised amateur opera nights at a bar for free. Theres events being organised that can tickle your fancy regardless of what your interests are. Toronto Has multiple e sports bars and a harry potter themed bar. Like sports? We have several different professional teams (quality varies but its to be expected). Work Opportunities? Depending on your field toronto will have more opportunities for career advancement.

Convenient tranportation. I've a friend who lives downtown toronto whose apartment connects to the path. the result is he walks pretty much everywhere he needs to go (has 0 need for a car), as well as the fact he can go grocery shopping in shorts in the middle of winter and still be fine as he never has to peak outside.

You have unbelievable options for cuisine and restauraunts, as well as fusion restauraunts of all kinds. I very Much doubt rural canada has convenient access to good quality food of the following variety cuisines.
Korean BBQ
Korean Chicken
Ramen
Sushi
Pho
Thai
Jamaican
Indian
Italian
Greek
Hong Kong Style Diners
Sizchuan
Mexican
Israeli Bagels

And Im sure im missing stuff as well.

The recent people like myself love the city is that cities have so much to offer. Im currently interviewing for 3 positions. One's local, one's in guelph (120k) and the other Leamington (27k and apparently the tomato capital). While both are great career opportunties, Im not relishing moving to the country as my satisfaction in life will decrease.

Yea major league sports were the major appeal of toronto during the time I spent in Ontario (and I was there when the jays and raps both got really hot........ and the leafs, well they kept on).

My city has: pub food. Lol. Like 17 craft breweries though, so thats great!

My original comment was partially sarcasm (I've grown out of thinking of urbanites as city slickers lol [unless I'm drunk and trying to impress the farmers with how little of a city slicker I am now....]).....though there is an extent to which while I understand/respect that POV......I also just kinda.....dont understand......if that makes sense? Different strokes I think. To put it in perspective, I drive a truck (just a ranger; I'm not fronting that hard)......and literally had its bed full of cowshit this weekend at 1 point LOL. ( And I haven't bothered washing it.....cuz everywhere smells like cowshit right now)


I really liked Guelph when I visted from KW! Truthfully, the city of 70k I'm in now is a bit too small for me. Halifax is my #1. Probably the best music scene outside the big 3, but 'traffic' just means it takes 25 mins to get from 1 end of the city to the other, some diversity in menu and culture, and just a quick jaunt to the majority of things I want to do (ie: 3-5 day canoe trips/ 60L hikes/taking a bike [4wheeler] for a quick adventure). Definitely still car oriented though- as most places in the maritimes are unfortunately.
It's the maritimes first and only real crack at a 'city' (its like 400k) and I think we killed it lol!

This got a bit off topic....so.... how about Trudeau libs trying to find a former justice to lead their next round of consultations with indigenous groups along the TMP to better rubber stamp the project.

This post has been edited by rant: 19 September 2018 - 11:21 PM

[QuickTidal]

D, on 19 September 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 September 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

rant, on 19 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'll never understand why you city-slickers enjoy having 3 million people rubbing elbows with you.

Oh, I don't love it. Both my wife and I are hampering to get out to the suburbs at least...but housing prices in southern ontario are still way too insane.

I've lived on the outskirts of a town of 1400. I've lived in the downtown of a city of 1 million. I loved both in their own ways, but moving to the suburbs absolutely terrifies me

See, but I grew up in the suburbs. Was born into a "planned community" (Meadowvale in Mississauga; planned just means that it was constructed for families, with tonnes of manmade lakes, parks, and big trails everywhere), moved to the snobby suburbs at age 6 (Oakville), and lived there till my late teens and then in Burlington (my fave of the three honestly), and didn't actually live downtown T.O. until I was at least 23 or 24. Now I've lived downtown since then, so about 17 years.

Yes, the city is convenient.
Yes, the city is diverse in food, and entertainment, and transit.

It's also filthy, way overcrowded, filled with mentally ill (who can't get help because each successive gov't has taken away more and more ability to help them) & or drug-addled people who have zero issue getting in your face and attempting to assault you. There are shootings, and stabbings nearly every night. Cars, cyclists, and pedestrians utterly LOATHE each other. The parks are few, and far between, and everything costs about two times as much as it does everywhere else just because "city". They close off major thoroughfares multiple times over the summer months for marathons, protests, parades, and other nebulous actives that COULD happen in less populated areas....but don't. And vast construction projects which are always lowballed as "a few years" take two times, three times, and more that length causing unending traffic...heck, Union Station was peddled as a 3 year revamp I believe? We just rounded ten years now on it, and it's STILL not close to done. Construction on so many condos around me causes not only traffic, but the air quality is shite and the noise is sometimes unbearable. And who owns most of those condo developments? The "progressive councillor" in my Ward does....so when we call her to complain about them being way over schedule, and breaking the noise bylaw rules by starting work too early or too late? Do you think she cares? Nopers.

I don't think "convenience" or "diversity in food, entertainment, and transit" are worth that second paragraph when you are past 40, and have a wife and kids. The suburbs offer to remove MOST of the more egregious offenders in thats second paragraph. And better yet, I'm used to it as I grew up with it.

The city was totally great for age 24-34 or so. Absolutely something I needed to do as a human. I'm done. It's now time to go back to the quite, family-oriented suburbs full of parks, trails, and other activities a family can get up to. I WANT to mow the lawn on a quiet, sunny Saturday. I WANT to wash the car in the driveway. I WANT to go to my kids soccer game. I want all those things so badly I can taste them.

Most of all, I want that peace an quiet. I want to walk out of my door and hear blessed silence where the loudest noise might be kids playing road hockey, a lawn mower, or the splashes in a backyard pool. And where the worst smell I can think of is freshly mown grass, or the pavement after it rains.

Sorry, I went deep there.

[Vengeance]

QuickTidal, on 20 September 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

D, on 19 September 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 September 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

rant, on 19 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'll never understand why you city-slickers enjoy having 3 million people rubbing elbows with you.

Oh, I don't love it. Both my wife and I are hampering to get out to the suburbs at least...but housing prices in southern ontario are still way too insane.

I've lived on the outskirts of a town of 1400. I've lived in the downtown of a city of 1 million. I loved both in their own ways, but moving to the suburbs absolutely terrifies me

See, but I grew up in the suburbs. Was born into a "planned community" (Meadowvale in Mississauga; planned just means that it was constructed for families, with tonnes of manmade lakes, parks, and big trails everywhere), moved to the snobby suburbs at age 6 (Oakville), and lived there till my late teens and then in Burlington (my fave of the three honestly), and didn't actually live downtown T.O. until I was at least 23 or 24. Now I've lived downtown since then, so about 17 years.

Yes, the city is convenient.
Yes, the city is diverse in food, and entertainment, and transit.

It's also filthy, way overcrowded, filled with mentally ill (who can't get help because each successive gov't has taken away more and more ability to help them) & or drug-addled people who have zero issue getting in your face and attempting to assault you. There are shootings, and stabbings nearly every night. Cars, cyclists, and pedestrians utterly LOATHE each other. The parks are few, and far between, and everything costs about two times as much as it does everywhere else just because "city". They close off major thoroughfares multiple times over the summer months for marathons, protests, parades, and other nebulous actives that COULD happen in less populated areas....but don't. And vast construction projects which are always lowballed as "a few years" take two times, three times, and more that length causing unending traffic...heck, Union Station was peddled as a 3 year revamp I believe? We just rounded ten years now on it, and it's STILL not close to done. Construction on so many condos around me causes not only traffic, but the air quality is shite and the noise is sometimes unbearable. And who owns most of those condo developments? The "progressive councillor" in my Ward does....so when we call her to complain about them being way over schedule, and breaking the noise bylaw rules by starting work too early or too late? Do you think she cares? Nopers.

I don't think "convenience" or "diversity in food, entertainment, and transit" are worth that second paragraph when you are past 40, and have a wife and kids. The suburbs offer to remove MOST of the more egregious offenders in thats second paragraph. And better yet, I'm used to it as I grew up with it.

The city was totally great for age 24-34 or so. Absolutely something I needed to do as a human. I'm done. It's now time to go back to the quite, family-oriented suburbs full of parks, trails, and other activities a family can get up to. I WANT to mow the lawn on a quiet, sunny Saturday. I WANT to wash the car in the driveway. I WANT to go to my kids soccer game. I want all those things so badly I can taste them.

Most of all, I want that peace an quiet. I want to walk out of my door and hear blessed silence where the loudest noise might be kids playing road hockey, a lawn mower, or the splashes in a backyard pool. And where the worst smell I can think of is freshly mown grass, or the pavement after it rains.

Sorry, I went deep there.

Good for you.

I don't want to move to the suburbs. Because you lose the diversity and the understanding of being constantly around people who have different idea's and behaviors. Living in the suburbs allows you to be surrounded by people exactly like you. It is very insulating and causes group think which leads to not understanding differing view points. I would hate having to live in an area where I have to drive everywhere but no one knows how to drive. The only reason that I have to drive is because someone decided to let everything sprawl out. Rather then have a decent city center where everything is. Now there are older suburbs who are actually like small towns and those are on our short list to move too if we have to move out of the city.

I grew up in the country and loved the freedom that it brought. I have lived 20 years in the city and love the diversity of the community. The food.. Oh my god the food. Oh and the understanding of other people and how hard everyone works just to try to get a step up in life.

When you live in any isolated place you don't realize that everyone has it hard and is constantly working trying to get to a better place. It is easy to say well those over there they are different and have stuff given to them. When that is usually only true for kids of rich parents who live in the suburbs. Which brings up another point. Kids in the suburbs are more likely to do hard drugs. There is more pressure on them to conform and if you are different then the peer pressure can be intense. In the city kids can always find someone who is like them. In the suburbs it can be a lot less likely. Also forget about it if you are in a rich suburb and your family is not rich. All of the other kids will let you know about it. Your parents don't have lexus and bmw's in the driveway... Are you poor?

I am not a fan of the suburbs. I would rather live in the city or on a farm.


Sure the city is noisy and messy and there are homeless all over the place. Those are issues that you don't have in the suburbs. But they are issues that need to be addressed. If you don't see them then they won't be addressed. Moving away so that you don't have to deal with it doesn't make the homeless go away it just removes you from having to see them. My heart breaks seeing people living under a underpass. But I don't give them money. I donate at the food pantry. When someone broke in and stole there food. I helped to organize replacements for everything.

I feel that living in the suburbs removes you from the plight of your fellow humans. I want my kids to know that they are lucky to be where they are at. Lucky to see and experience the things because there are people just down the street who have a lot less.

A bigger yard would be nice though.

[QuickTidal]

I should be clear. I never mentioned the homeless. I mentioned the mentally ill (whose plight I can only help by trying to vote in councillors who will help places like CAMH function properly...which is going to now be harder because: Doug Ford), and the drug-addicts and criminals. Both of these fellow humans are causing no end of problems in our city communities. The mentally il cannot help it, which is why I qualified that complaint (They have had too many services removed from them)...but the drug addict criminals who populate the parks near me can and choose not to. These people have cell phones. Smartphones. And spend every other dime on drugs (usually Meth). The ones near me also run a bike theft ring and turn the parks into chop shops. The city has tried to help them. I used to belong to a group who tried to help them when I was first in the city, the wagon-fall rate was like 98%; it got to the point I had to stop helping because it wasn't working. It's much too easy for them to just live a life of crime, and addiction.

The homeless near us are fewer and farther between. I have sympathy for them 100% and while I live here, I will do what I can to help them. There are a few regulars, both my wife and I offer them food when we can.

As to the diversity, perhaps it's different in the States, but in Ontario the diversity in the city migrated to the suburbs a LONG time ago. There are very few "mostly white gentrified" towns and cities in the burbs now (Oakville is the only one that comes to mind). Hell, Brampton is very close to what you might have as a full out South Asian city as it stands population-demographics-wise. Same is true of Mississauga. It's been like that since at least the 1990's. I will live ear to ear with the same diversity in the suburbs of the outer GTA that I would right downtown...just less overall people. So I don't think that portion of your comment applies to Ontario. Tonnes of diverse food and entertainment options too in the suburbs here.

It means that instead of living in a condo building where I fleetingly see neighbours but rarely engage with them (I mean my condo is mostly university students, so it's not like that would ever happen anyways)...I may be on a suburban street with lots of diverse people to interact with as a community. That community only expands when your kids are in school with other kids, or soccer, or whatever else. I think it's unfair to deem the city the only place to find those things, and that type of living. I interacted with most of the people on my streets as a kid...everyone I know downtown is a friend of a friend and that's it. I don't know 90% of my neighbours right now, and I doubt they have any pressing need to know me as they rush about their city lives.

It's not disconnecting from my fellow humans, it's just changing the setting. Like I said, perhaps it's different in the USA. I can't speak to that. But the noise and mess of the city don't go away. The construction will never cease. The homeless problem won't either. They need to be addressed, sure...but the only way for me to do that is to support city councillors who will address it (and then hope I'm in a ward with a progressive councillor), or a mayor, or do some sort of helping in the community itself (which with a fledgling family, a toddler and an incoming infant...ain't gonna happen). Beyond that I fail to see what my remaining in a city that was meant for 1 million (MAYBE 2) people to habitate in (infrastructure-wise) that now is nearing 3 million and growing does to help any of that. Let the young people who keep flocking to the city to live handle that. I'm done. I've been here 17 years or more and I've done as much as I can for the city and the problems therein. I'm tired. Daycare in the city is bare minimum $2000/month per kid which is more than double what you pay in the suburbs. I can't take my toddler out in the city without fear of her getting run down somehow (seriously, my city is that bad for crazy drivers and cyclists...I often have to have her strapped into the stroller, or in my arms...we can only let her walk for short periods of time and she loves walking so it makes me sad we can't let her be more free outside), accosted by some methhead or criminal, and any park worth the name is kilometres away. The subway is constantly overstuffed so even the transit aspect of the city is mucky and unenjoyable, and in some cases quite dangerously overcrowded. these are all things we have hounded our mayors, and councillors about overt the years...and for naught. Nothing changes.

Not to mention that the city is becoming just untenable for affordability for the very diverse demographics that used to populate it anyways. Shoeboxes for rent in the city are being bought for 3 times what they should be worth, and rentals are disappearing or WAY overpriced...and rich industry people pay it, so it goes up. The housing crisis in the city of Toronto both for sale and rentals has shoved so many average people out. Taking their place are people with 6 figure salaries and that's it. I'd argue that in 10 years time you won't be able to live in downtown Toronto unless you make north of $100,000/year, and if you are a couple with kids...that number likely needs to quadruple. There's no chance at diversity of culture in that equation. None.


I want my kids to be informed and globally minded about the world and its cultures too. I just don't think that demands living in a big overstuffed city. In fact I think allowing those cities to BE overpopulated by so many people is detrimental to civilization. It's why so much has spilled out into the suburbs here.

And how does a farm get a pass in your comment? How is living on a farm not isolating yourself ten times worse than the suburbs?

Nah, I'm good. I did my time in the city. And when my kids grow up I'll fully endorse that they spend time living in a city too as I feel it's something everyone should do once in their life. But when they are kids, and I'm raising them? I want them to have as best as I can provide, and to me that's the suburbs in this province. That may not be true on other provinces. But here, it is. At least to me.

[Gintokian]

Just a quick note, Oakville is not "mostly-white" as much as it used to be. In the past few years the asian community has grown like crazy, especially in the more expensive areas. When I go to the gym or go swimming it's mostly Chinese or Korean people there.
It's great to see even a town like Oakville growing more diverse, although i'm not super thrilled with all the foreign buyers driving up our housing market but what can you do.

[QuickTidal]

Gintokian, on 20 September 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Just a quick note, Oakville is not "mostly-white" as much as it used to be. In the past few years the asian community has grown like crazy, especially in the more expensive areas. When I go to the gym or go swimming it's mostly Chinese or Korean people there.
It's great to see even a town like Oakville growing more diverse, although i'm not super thrilled with all the foreign buyers driving up our housing market but what can you do.

Fair enough. It was when I was a kid. I can't speak to now.

[Vengeance]

In Chicago it is exactly the opposite. You have black suburbs and white suburbs. A few inbetween. You also have Jewish and protestant and catholic suburbs. Then you have just insanely rich suburbs. The ones that are diverse are poor or have a lot of industry that nobody wants to live by.

I know all of my neighbors and hang out with them all the time. We all have kids the same age and are all roughly in the same age group. My son goes to a city magnet school with kids from every neighborhood in the city. When we lived in an apt we knew our neighbors. Some we hung out with others we avoided. Some I went out of my way to piss off. Different cities different suburbs.

[D'rek]

QuickTidal, on 20 September 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

I WANT to mow the lawn on a quiet, sunny Saturday.

Ew

QuickTidal, on 20 September 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

I WANT to wash the car in the driveway.

EEEWWWWW!!!!!

QuickTidal, on 20 September 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

I WANT to go to my kids soccer game.

Morgoth, on 19 September 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

Once you unshackle your inner soccer mom there's no going back.

EEEEEEWWWWWWWW

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 20 September 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

As to the diversity, perhaps it's different in the States, but in Ontario the diversity in the city migrated to the suburbs a LONG time ago. There are very few "mostly white gentrified" towns and cities in the burbs now (Oakville is the only one that comes to mind). Hell, Brampton is very close to what you might have as a full out South Asian city as it stands population-demographics-wise. Same is true of Mississauga. It's been like that since at least the 1990's. I will live ear to ear with the same diversity in the suburbs of the outer GTA that I would right downtown...just less overall people. So I don't think that portion of your comment applies to Ontario. Tonnes of diverse food and entertainment options too in the suburbs here.

Vengeance, on 20 September 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

In Chicago it is exactly the opposite. You have black suburbs and white suburbs. A few inbetween. You also have Jewish and protestant and catholic suburbs. Then you have just insanely rich suburbs. The ones that are diverse are poor or have a lot of industry that nobody wants to live by.

I know all of my neighbors and hang out with them all the time. We all have kids the same age and are all roughly in the same age group. My son goes to a city magnet school with kids from every neighborhood in the city. When we lived in an apt we knew our neighbors. Some we hung out with others we avoided. Some I went out of my way to piss off. Different cities different suburbs.

Canadas an order of magnitude smaller RE: population (35 vs. 350 million), on a landmass that is only slightly ( is 100,000km2 slight? lol) bigger. Not to mention like 13 million ( almost half our pop.) Canadians live in Southern Ontario. I dunno if our demographics allow for the level of neighborhood self-selection you describe. Well.... I guess if they do, its only in Toronto really lol.


I think one of the things I don't really grasp about urbanite arguments for city living ( as touched on in your post, if I'm putting words in your mouth I apologize) is the presumption of monolithic worldviews/ belief systems in rural (and suburban I guess) areas. I grew up in rural NB. Sure, ALOT of the people I know are deeply conservative.....but the other half of the people I grew up with are really liberal. ((Never forget: Canadian medicare was born of Saskatchewan farmers)

Youre right that we (especially me, as I grew up pre-internet) were not physically exposed to much diversity.....but true ignorance of diversity (i.e. not willful ignorance) is not a vice so long as it is mitigated by compassion, empathy and humanity. We live in an era with the internet (obvs lol).....rural farmers can and do ( I've sat on their couches with them as it happened) pull up 'Dear White People' on Netflix and go huh--good points, or look on twitter at #metoo and #blacklivesmatter, etc. and think......damn, we've got to help these people!

Don't get me wrong. There is absolutely systemic discrimination/marginalization and outright racism in rural areas just like in there is in urban areas, and there are assholes in rural areas for sure (google Malcolm Ross [Moncton]--that is the anti-semitism, racism, and homphobia my [white/christianish/cis/hetero-normative] friends and I were arguing against [ all the Ross kids were 'ist AF] at the tender ages of 10 through 18), but there are just as many (if not more?) racist pricks in cities isn't there? And they use their daily exposures to diversity as justification for being pricks.

If its possible to detach physical (as opposed to empathic, emotional, electronic, informational, etc.) exposure to diversity from the moral imperative to not treat people like shit... Whats left for city living? Food seems a recurrent theme. I eat out.....once a month.....and thats not because there are no options or whatever. I would just rather spend $8 making my meal than $35 buying it. I recognize I'm a miser though LOL.

Keep in mind I live in a city.

Also I was celebrating a promotion tnt and got a bit drunk, so apologies for incoherence.

This post has been edited by rant: 21 September 2018 - 02:30 AM

[Maark Abbott]

Morgoth, on 19 September 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

D, on 19 September 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 September 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

rant, on 19 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'll never understand why you city-slickers enjoy having 3 million people rubbing elbows with you.

Oh, I don't love it. Both my wife and I are hampering to get out to the suburbs at least...but housing prices in southern ontario are still way too insane.

I've lived on the outskirts of a town of 1400. I've lived in the downtown of a city of 1 million. I loved both in their own ways, but moving to the suburbs absolutely terrifies me

Once you unshackle your inner soccer mom there's no going back.

Interestingly in the UK it seems to be more football dads than soccer moms. Threatening to chin the ref, etc.

[Gintokian]

Maark Abbott, on 21 September 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 19 September 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

D, on 19 September 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 September 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

rant, on 19 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'll never understand why you city-slickers enjoy having 3 million people rubbing elbows with you.

Oh, I don't love it. Both my wife and I are hampering to get out to the suburbs at least...but housing prices in southern ontario are still way too insane.

I've lived on the outskirts of a town of 1400. I've lived in the downtown of a city of 1 million. I loved both in their own ways, but moving to the suburbs absolutely terrifies me

Once you unshackle your inner soccer mom there's no going back.

Interestingly in the UK it seems to be more football dads than soccer moms. Threatening to chin the ref, etc.

Though I know little about football dads you should see kids hockey games here, some of the dads are terrifying, especially in the full contact leagues. Screaming, swearing at the refs/coaches/other children, telling their kids to hurt the others, fistfights with other parents. Some of these guys are nuts.
My own dad just yelled a lot, but mostly helpful things, ex. "shoot the puck", "don't pass in front of the net", etc. But some of the other parents were insane.

[QuickTidal]

Back on track.

It's GREAT to see Ford's PC's have their sacks nailed to the wall like this so cleanly by reporters unafraid to hold them accountable.

70,000 people are represented by 96 councillors in Leads-Grenville Ontario....while the PC party assured us that 47 was too many for 2.8MILLION people in Toronto.

And he gets heated in that one moment ("Wanna let me finish?!") because he fucking KNOWS he just got owned.

https://toronto.city...eeds-grenville/

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 21 September 2018 - 03:14 PM

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

Back on track.

It's GREAT to see Ford's PC's have their sacks nailed to the wall like this so cleanly by reporters unafraid to hold them accountable.

70,000 people are represented by 96 councillors in Leads-Grenville Ontario....while the PC party assured us that 47 was too many for 2.8MILLION people in Toronto.

And he gets heated in that one moment ("Wanna let me finish?!") because he fucking KNOWS he just got owned.

https://toronto.city...eeds-grenville/

I mean, the council reduction is silly, and rushing it through was punitive and unnecessary, as was having it as a key agenda item but not in the election platform.

But it is all manner of absurd to compare governance of a city vs that of a collection of separate towns and counties that happen to fall within a riding.

It is just as silly to complain about '96 councillors for 70k' as it would be for him to complain that there is 1 MPP for a riding covering the area that Toronto has covered by several. It is not apples to apples.

Point being, that riding has 96 because it is multiple councils. And on each one, while Toronto can certainly argue an upper bound with respect to representation of population, there is a also a lower bound to councillors both for representation of areas, as well as to have a well functioning council (as in, if its just a mayor they dictate, and you need enough voting to make a decision).

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 21 September 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

Back on track.

It's GREAT to see Ford's PC's have their sacks nailed to the wall like this so cleanly by reporters unafraid to hold them accountable.

70,000 people are represented by 96 councillors in Leads-Grenville Ontario....while the PC party assured us that 47 was too many for 2.8MILLION people in Toronto.

And he gets heated in that one moment ("Wanna let me finish?!") because he fucking KNOWS he just got owned.

https://toronto.city...eeds-grenville/

I mean, the council reduction is silly, and rushing it through was punitive and unnecessary, as was having it as a key agenda item but not in the election platform.

But it is all manner of absurd to compare governance of a city vs that of a collection of separate towns and counties that happen to fall within a riding.

It is just as silly to complain about '96 councillors for 70k' as it would be for him to complain that there is 1 MPP for a riding covering the area that Toronto has covered by several. It is not apples to apples.

Point being, that riding has 96 because it is multiple councils. And on each one, while Toronto can certainly argue an upper bound with respect to representation of population, there is a also a lower bound to councillors both for representation of areas, as well as to have a well functioning council (as in, if its just a mayor they dictate, and you need enough voting to make a decision).

Nonsense, but you go ahead and think that man.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 21 September 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

Back on track.

It's GREAT to see Ford's PC's have their sacks nailed to the wall like this so cleanly by reporters unafraid to hold them accountable.

70,000 people are represented by 96 councillors in Leads-Grenville Ontario....while the PC party assured us that 47 was too many for 2.8MILLION people in Toronto.

And he gets heated in that one moment ("Wanna let me finish?!") because he fucking KNOWS he just got owned.

https://toronto.city...eeds-grenville/

I mean, the council reduction is silly, and rushing it through was punitive and unnecessary, as was having it as a key agenda item but not in the election platform.

But it is all manner of absurd to compare governance of a city vs that of a collection of separate towns and counties that happen to fall within a riding.

It is just as silly to complain about '96 councillors for 70k' as it would be for him to complain that there is 1 MPP for a riding covering the area that Toronto has covered by several. It is not apples to apples.

Point being, that riding has 96 because it is multiple councils. And on each one, while Toronto can certainly argue an upper bound with respect to representation of population, there is a also a lower bound to councillors both for representation of areas, as well as to have a well functioning council (as in, if its just a mayor they dictate, and you need enough voting to make a decision).

Nonsense, but you go ahead and think that man.

Naw, you're probably right, there is no need for a separate mayor and council for two towns a 40 minute drive apart with different water treatment, works , and fire departments. Its 70k people so they should get 1 guy. Or Toronto should get a council of 2000, and in no way will there be a tradeoff between personal representation to how council functions.


Its also probably irrelevant that many of those 96 councillors will be part time, paid far less than city councillors, nor that the people of those municipalities are paying for them.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 21 September 2018 - 05:44 PM

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 21 September 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 21 September 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

Back on track.

It's GREAT to see Ford's PC's have their sacks nailed to the wall like this so cleanly by reporters unafraid to hold them accountable.

70,000 people are represented by 96 councillors in Leads-Grenville Ontario....while the PC party assured us that 47 was too many for 2.8MILLION people in Toronto.

And he gets heated in that one moment ("Wanna let me finish?!") because he fucking KNOWS he just got owned.

https://toronto.city...eeds-grenville/

I mean, the council reduction is silly, and rushing it through was punitive and unnecessary, as was having it as a key agenda item but not in the election platform.

But it is all manner of absurd to compare governance of a city vs that of a collection of separate towns and counties that happen to fall within a riding.

It is just as silly to complain about '96 councillors for 70k' as it would be for him to complain that there is 1 MPP for a riding covering the area that Toronto has covered by several. It is not apples to apples.

Point being, that riding has 96 because it is multiple councils. And on each one, while Toronto can certainly argue an upper bound with respect to representation of population, there is a also a lower bound to councillors both for representation of areas, as well as to have a well functioning council (as in, if its just a mayor they dictate, and you need enough voting to make a decision).

Nonsense, but you go ahead and think that man.

Naw, you're probably right, there is no need for a separate mayor and council for two towns a 40 minute drive apart with different water treatment, works , and fire departments. Its 70k people so they should get 1 guy. Or Toronto should get a council of 2000, and in no way will there be a tradeoff between personal representation to how council functions.

I'm glad we agree. It's the representation that matters, not the geography.

For 2.8 million people, 47 is fine and decent number (25 is ridiculous)...and 96 is insane for 70,000 no matter how you slice it or how the towns are laid out across what land.

You can wiggle around all the goal posts you like and that doesn't change the basics.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

I'm glad we agree. It's the representation that matters, not the geography.

For 2.8 million people, 47 is fine and decent number (25 is ridiculous)...and 96 is insane for 70,000 no matter how you slice it or how the towns are laid out across what land.

You can wiggle around all the goal posts you like and that doesn't change the basics.

Yeah, because its not like Ganonoque and Athens have different water treatment, fire, and public works.

All of non Toronto should have one council! Huzzah! Now its fair!

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 21 September 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 September 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

I'm glad we agree. It's the representation that matters, not the geography.

For 2.8 million people, 47 is fine and decent number (25 is ridiculous)...and 96 is insane for 70,000 no matter how you slice it or how the towns are laid out across what land.

You can wiggle around all the goal posts you like and that doesn't change the basics.

Yeah, because its not like Ganonoque and Athens have different water treatment, fire, and public works.

All of non Toronto should have one council! Huzzah! Now its fair!

I'm sure you can suss out the 96 positions that requires?

And how about that the number quoted in the news item pointedly doesn't INCLUDE the places like Gananoque, Brockville, and Prescott BECAUSE they are independent even though they fall in a census under Leads-Grenville. That would put the number closer to 98,000.

The rest of Leeds-Grenville is managed under a United front. That they have different water treatment, fire, and public works is beside the point when the math breaks it down to Councillor-per-residents.

96 is still insane.

EDIT: I doubt we are going to agree on this, so I'll just be satisfied with my posted news item, and you can be happy with your incredulousness at the gaul of the reporter to make the comparison in the first place, and we'll go on out merry way, yeah? It's not worth the stress.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 21 September 2018 - 06:13 PM

[Nevyn]

Its remarkable the things you find stressful. By all means, withdraw.


And I don't find the question galling (although as you can tell by the minister's response, it is it a question based on a tweet). I just find it the type of silly "mic drop" argument one makes in the twitter age because it will look ridiculous the less you think of it. The 96 itself hardly even matters. There could be 40 and you could still hashtag it because the ratios would still seem far off.

That doesn't change the fact that towns have their own decisions to make, their own interest, pay for their councillors, and that most of these people work part time, are paid far less, and don't have expansive staffs and office budgets. A Toronto councillor is not the same thing as a town councillor in anything but title.

But I really don't feel like deep googling what each of those 96 positions are or how all of the riding is organized, so if you just want to shut er down go ahead.


The one good point the reported had was that the Minister chose the regrettable line that they would listen to municipalities when they didn't listen to Toronto. Again, we are in agreement that cutting council in this way was bad. I could make a devil's advocate argument about the number of councillors Toronto needs, but I don't really care enough, and you would likely just say you disagreed to avoid stress anyway.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 21 September 2018 - 06:44 PM