[worry]

Agreed. Martin indulges readers' massive outcry for ever more lamprey pie, as chum for the sharks, and Erikson entirely stonewalls readers on this issue.

[Egwene]

Werthead, on 15 January 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

Andorion, on 12 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

The TV show contributed massively to the popularity and 'mainstreaming' of ASOIAF. Plus there's the macro vs micro theme issue. From the long-term perspective a bunch of people fighting over who gets to sit on an iron chair is pretty micro. In MBotF entire Ice Ages triggerred by wars in the other hand is a micro-theme - a specific war mutating into a macro-theme. The Wars of the Roses point above is very well-made. If you are going to take historical events and set them in a fantsay context, it may make for very fine reading, but it also narrows down the scope of the narrative and the plot. If on the other hand you have a fresh world with an intentionally dispersed racial structure, with deep anthropological and archaeological structuring, the scope is naturally broadened.

Before the TV show had started, ASoIaF had outsold MALAZAN (which had just concluded) by approximately 600%, and that was of four compares to MALAZAN's then-ten (not counting ICE or the novellas). The TV show has caused that to explode massively (the ratio is now 30+ million copies of five novels to 2 million of 11, not counting ICE or the novellas). So the fact that the ASoIaF fanbase dwarfs the MALAZAN one is certainly part of the issue, although not a definitive one. There is also a hell of a lot more nitty-gritty discussion of the philosophical underpinnings and themes of Scott Bakker's novels than there has been of Erikson, yet Erikson has outsold him massively.

Another is that ASoIaF is a much easier series to get into (to even Erikson's regret) and uses superficial simplicity to hide much greater depth and complexity, such as the interrogation of power and consequence that continues through each book. For example, ASoIaF is influenced by the Wars of the Roses but it is very definitely not the case that Martin takes those same events and resets them in a fantasy context. There are allusions to real events (and on a much broader sweep, including to things like Napoleon's march on Moscow, Roman politics and Babylonian history) but the books aren't simply recasting them. The suggestion that the books are also just about people who are fighting to sit on a chair is also a gross oversimplication of what is going on.

The other problem is that whilst Erikson engages with a much larger number of themes and ideas (as you'd expect, with a much larger number of novels so far to draw upon), he does not necessarily do so in significant depth. His exploration of capitalism in MIDNIGHT TIDES, for example, is interesting but the conclusions are ultimately fairly standard.

The final nail in the coffin is that whilst Martin has been happy to pin down and nail down ideas and concepts as long as they do not pertain to spoilers, Erikson has been massively more reluctant to confirm or deny anything (see his reluctance to comment on D'Rek's world map as a good example of that). With so little of the MALAZAN world set in stone (again, its world is bigger and more impressive than Westeros/Essos but it lacks anything like the depth of backstory and history, as Erikson is more interested in depicting the feel of that without the detail), it's difficult to have solid discussions about much of it. In fact, I get the impression that Erikson would rather people not engage in discussions of the nuts and bolts of the world but more in the thematic, tragic and philosophical aspects. The problem is that those aspects do require some solidity behind them to have a fruitful discussion, and ultimately MALAZAN is too vague in its worldbuilding to permit that.

Thanks for the data, Werthead. I had not realised that there was such a difference in sales, still, as you mentioned, the massive explosion due to TV has obviously contributed greatly to there being so much more ASOIAF material about.

I think you raised a lot of good points but I don't agree with your overall conclusion that the Malazan world lacks depth. The very fact that not everything of backstory and history is all there is what to me makes the Malazan world so much more credible and deep. That is what human history and human life is like. We are forever drawing conclusions based on knowing only part of a story. How many things have been re-written in history books because someone dug up some evidence which put a completely different light on how a people or an event had been perceived up to that point.

The Malazan books are very much about the reality of how history comes to be. They depict the differing approaches from 'we do not know everything so we make it up as we go along', the 'we don't like what really happened so we bring out an official version' to the 'we thought we knew what happened but did not realise our source was faulty' and all sorts of other variations. So as we read, we are trying to figure out what really happened, but as in life, we can not ever know the truth of most things.

The Malazan books are history books. They contain miss-information relayed in good faith, have huge gaps where there is very little historical documentation, knowingly or unwittingly pass on propaganda of the past and never, never, give us all the answers to our questions. That is where the real depth lies. It asks us to see beyond what is in front of our eyes, to doubt some of what we read and to always allow for the possibility that things might not be as they seem. The books challenge us to complete the picture ourselves. That is after all what we have to do in real life - another book that poses more questions than it gives answers...

[Andorion]

Have to agree with Egwene here. I am doing a PhD in history and while doing my coursework on theory and methodology of history, I got a lot of resonances of what I have read in Malazan. Specifically Duiker's musings, the twistings of history from DG to HoC to TBH to RotCG, the Malazan series is like a set-piece example of what history as it really functions may look like. SE's worka nd writing is actually quite deeply academic in some places. A lot of thought has gone into shaping certain characters and situations.

Just like to affirm once again I have not read ASOIAF in its entirety. But from what little I know it seems to be a dissertation on power - The quest for power and its ramifications. But often while reading MBotF I have had the impression that this is a post-power story. Imagine the tale of the Bonehunters. Why do they march into the unknown into Kolanse, into the Glass Desert? Why does Tavore lead them to a confrontation that in her own words will be 'unwitnessed'? They march having accepted that they will most probably die. In fact it can be argued that except for the remnant with Fiddler, Tavore, Lostara and the others would have died if not for Ganoes Paran and the Host who appeared unlooked for. Why do they die? Power? No. Reknown? No. Why? The Empire that they served had cast them out, most had left their fmailies behind for good. What did they fight for? There is no easy rational explanation. It is in these gaps that I think MBotF has its true depth.

[Andorion]

Decided to bump this.

Now that i have finished all the published material for Ice and Fire I can honestly say it comes nowhere close to Malazan

[Gorefest]

It's a difference in focus and tone, mainly. Malazan is more epic in scope, without a doubt, but in my view George Martin is superior in character development and world colouring. It kind of depends on what you value in your reading. Both series have their strenghts and weaknesses.

[Andorion]

Gorefest, on 26 November 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

It's a difference in focus and tone, mainly. Malazan is more epic in scope, without a doubt, but in my view George Martin is superior in character development and world colouring. It kind of depends on what you value in your reading. Both series have their strenghts and weaknesses.

I disagree regarding characters. Martin creates some awesome ones: Tyrion, Arya, Jaime but when SE kills people it actually hurts me to read it. Even when I know its coming on a 2nd reread. All the deaths in ASOIAF left me cold, I felt almost no empathy.

[worry]

That's because you yourself have turned into a Wight.

Are you gonna read Dunk & Egg now?

[Andorion]

Don't have the Dunk and Egg books and feel no immediate urge to get them. Are they important to the story? I do have World of Ice and Fire sitting around, will poke that maybe

[worry]

They're not important, per se, but they are pretty awesome. There's only three, and I'm pretty sure they've been collected a la the first three B&KB novellas.

[Andorion]

worry, on 27 November 2015 - 03:05 AM, said:

They're not important, per se, but they are pretty awesome. There's only three, and I'm pretty sure they've been collected a la the first three B&KB novellas.

Will probably look them up later then

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 26 November 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 26 November 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

It's a difference in focus and tone, mainly. Malazan is more epic in scope, without a doubt, but in my view George Martin is superior in character development and world colouring. It kind of depends on what you value in your reading. Both series have their strenghts and weaknesses.

I disagree regarding characters. Martin creates some awesome ones: Tyrion, Arya, Jaime but when SE kills people it actually hurts me to read it. Even when I know its coming on a 2nd reread. All the deaths in ASOIAF left me cold, I felt almost no empathy.

This was largely my problem with trying to re-read ASOIAF recently (I got to just before the Red Weddin before giving up). It's unfortunate because when I first read the series I really enjoyed it (aside from the disappointment with Dance with Dragons). For me personally, having read Malazan, I couldn't go back to ASOIAF. It's not about which is superior per se, it's more that Martin's world just doesn't do it for me anymore.

Also, I totally disagree on Martin being the better author for character development. If you can write something like the Red Wedding and I don't feel anything for the characters having died horribly, somewhere down the line as an author you haven't done your job in developing the characters to the point that I care about them.

Conversely, I'm with Andorion on SE. There are deaths that even now on five/six rereads destroy me every time.

[Andorion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Andorion, on 26 November 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 26 November 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

It's a difference in focus and tone, mainly. Malazan is more epic in scope, without a doubt, but in my view George Martin is superior in character development and world colouring. It kind of depends on what you value in your reading. Both series have their strenghts and weaknesses.

I disagree regarding characters. Martin creates some awesome ones: Tyrion, Arya, Jaime but when SE kills people it actually hurts me to read it. Even when I know its coming on a 2nd reread. All the deaths in ASOIAF left me cold, I felt almost no empathy.

This was largely my problem with trying to re-read ASOIAF recently (I got to just before the Red Weddin before giving up). It's unfortunate because when I first read the series I really enjoyed it (aside from the disappointment with Dance with Dragons). For me personally, having read Malazan, I couldn't go back to ASOIAF. It's not about which is superior per se, it's more that Martin's world just doesn't do it for me anymore.

Also, I totally disagree on Martin being the better author for character development. If you can write something like the Red Wedding and I don't feel anything for the characters having died horribly, somewhere down the line as an author you haven't done your job in developing the characters to the point that I care about them.

Conversely, I'm with Andorion on SE. There are deaths that even now on five/six rereads destroy me every time.

I felt happy when Catelyn died. Does that make me a bad person? I just couldn't take more of her brooding and remarks about wide hips

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

I felt happy when Catelyn died. Does that make me a bad person? I just couldn't take more of her brooding and remarks about wide hips

Absolutely not. I distinctly recall wanting to slap her round the face with a big sign saying "Skinny hipped women are people too!"

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 27 November 2015 - 06:20 AM

[Andorion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

I felt happy when Catelyn died. Does that make me a bad person? I just couldn't take more of her brooding and remarks about wide hips

Absolutely not. I distinctly recall wanting to slap her round the face with a big sign saying "Skinny hipped women are people too!"

This was one reason why the Red Wedding wasn't a tragedy for me. I was pissed Robb for his marriage

Tv: I am a big supporter of romance, but there is a time and a place
Book: 'it was the honourable thing' Echoes of Ned

And I hated Catelyn: Kidnapping Tyrion, Releasing Jaime on a very flimsy promise, being so mopy and obsessed with peoples bodies.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

This was one reason why the Red Wedding wasn't a tragedy for me. I was pissed Robb for his marriage

Tv: I am a big supporter of romance, but there is a time and a place
Book: 'it was the honourable thing' Echoes of Ned

And I hated Catelyn: Kidnapping Tyrion, Releasing Jaime on a very flimsy promise, being so mopy and obsessed with peoples bodies.

Yup. Book certainly handled it better. Is it my imagination or does Tywin at some point confirm that Jeyne was a honeytrap? I took it to be why Grey Wind never liked her.

I could understand the moping, but it didn't make it readable, because it's too repetitive (which is something that really irked me about quite a few characters on a re-read.)

The body thing I genuinely haven't a clue what that was about. I mean yes, lots of women in medieval times died in childbirth, and I imagine slim builds made it more difficult (when you think about it, build aside, as a mammal we're hugley poorly adapted to giving birth). But really woman, give it a rest!

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 27 November 2015 - 06:41 AM

[Andorion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

This was one reason why the Red Wedding wasn't a tragedy for me. I was pissed Robb for his marriage

Tv: I am a big supporter of romance, but there is a time and a place
Book: 'it was the honourable thing' Echoes of Ned

And I hated Catelyn: Kidnapping Tyrion, Releasing Jaime on a very flimsy promise, being so mopy and obsessed with peoples bodies.

Yup. Book certainly handled it better. Is it my imagination or does Tywin at some point confirm that Jeyne was a honeytrap? I took it to be why Grey Wind never liked her.

I could understand the moping, but it didn't make it readable, because it's too repetitive (which is something that really irked me about quite a few characters on a re-read.)

The body thing I genuinely haven't a clue what that was about. I mean yes, lots of women in medieval times died in childbirth, and I imagine slim builds made it more difficult (when you think about it, build aside, as a mammal we're hugley poorly adapted to giving birth). But really woman, give it a rest!

I dont know about Tywin... he did go a bit too easy on the Westerlings than what I was expecting

Repetition is a huge problem Martin has. Worst abuser is Dany, least is Jon.

Regarding body in the book itself, Cersei is slim and is very good at childbirth, while Cats sister Lyanna is 'heavier' but had serious problems, I tihnk Martin was trying to pack in medieval mentalities and overdid it.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

I dont know about Tywin... he did go a bit too easy on the Westerlings than what I was expecting

Repetition is a huge problem Martin has. Worst abuser is Dany, least is Jon.

Regarding body in the book itself, Cersei is slim and is very good at childbirth, while Cats sister Lyanna is 'heavier' but had serious problems, I tihnk Martin was trying to pack in medieval mentalities and overdid it.

Think it's in a Tyrion POV chapter where he's thinking about the different fates of the Westerlings and the Castameres for what appeared to be a similar crime.

Oh, Theon's bad too! I remember putting ADWD down at the end and thinking if I read "Words are wind" or that endless litany of things that rhyme with Reek one more time I'd have hit someone. With the book, probably.

[Andorion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

I dont know about Tywin... he did go a bit too easy on the Westerlings than what I was expecting

Repetition is a huge problem Martin has. Worst abuser is Dany, least is Jon.

Regarding body in the book itself, Cersei is slim and is very good at childbirth, while Cats sister Lyanna is 'heavier' but had serious problems, I tihnk Martin was trying to pack in medieval mentalities and overdid it.

Think it's in a Tyrion POV chapter where he's thinking about the different fates of the Westerlings and the Castameres for what appeared to be a similar crime.

Oh, Theon's bad too! I remember putting ADWD down at the end and thinking if I read "Words are wind" or that endless litany of things that rhyme with Reek one more time I'd have hit someone. With the book, probably.

Theon is bad but thankfully there isn't much of him. And Words are wind is said by Tyrion too I think. But there is so much of Dany and 80% of it is Dany being depressed that nobody likes her/her plans, Daario isn't here etc

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

Theon is bad but thankfully there isn't much of him. And Words are wind is said by Tyrion too I think. But there is so much of Dany and 80% of it is Dany being depressed that nobody likes her/her plans, Daario isn't here etc

"For I am just a young girl and know little of the ways of war" - /incoherent rage.

[Andorion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

Theon is bad but thankfully there isn't much of him. And Words are wind is said by Tyrion too I think. But there is so much of Dany and 80% of it is Dany being depressed that nobody likes her/her plans, Daario isn't here etc

"For I am just a young girl and know little of the ways of war" - /incoherent rage.

I was waiting for someone to yell at her for that statement. Its so stupid