[Melnibonean Wanderer]

One of the more interesting elements in Dust of Dreams/The Crippled God is the K'Chain Che Malle perspective. We get a sense of what the K'Chain are seeking, and get to experience certain events from the POV of Gu'Rull. A big critique in SFF in regards to the nonhuman perspective is that, often, the nonhumans are simply "quirky humans," or could easily be replaced with a human. How effectively does Erikson distinguish the K'Chain POV from that of another human? We can even look to the Tiste races as well in examining Erikson's use of xenofiction.

While I find the Tiste and K'Chain motives understandable, I believe that this is done in service to the idea of human arrogance ie assuming that we are the only beings capable of rationale thought, or assuming that the perspectives of other nonhumans are inferior to our own.

[Gorefest]

The problem with writing from a non-human perspective is always that the reader still is human. So although playing around with morality and general interpretation and consideration of events using an alien backdrop is neat, the reader still has to filter it through what we perceive as 'rational thought/actions'. Otherwise it will be impossible to comprehend what is going on, as you cannot see into a writer's mind and figure out what his intentions or assumptions were while writing. There might be a small, die-hard SF following out there who would consider a total alien perspective approach intriguing and innovative, but you'd probably quickly lose most of your other reader base. Similar to if you would be writing a novel set during the Napoleonic wars and you'd have the French protagonists speak and think in French all the time. Or have a Star Trek novel from a Klingon perspective with only Klingon dialogue and inner monologue. I think SE does an admirable job in incorporating the physical attributes of the K'Chain and their culture/history into their motivations and general actions, but that's probably about as far as you can push it until you break any sense of connection between the reader and the subject matter.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 29 December 2014 - 10:15 PM

[The Hust Legion]

 Gorefest, on 29 December 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

The problem with writing from a non-human perspective is always that the reader still is human. So although playing around with morality and general interpretation and consideration of events using an alien backdrop is neat, the reader still has to filter it through what we perceive as 'rational thought/actions'. Otherwise it will be impossible to comprehend what is going on, as you cannot see into a writer's mind and figure out what his intentions or assumptions were while writing. There might be a small, die-hard SF following out there who would consider a total alien perspective approach intriguing and innovative, but you'd probably quickly lose most of your other reader base. Similar to if you would be writing a novel set during the Napoleonic wars and you'd have the French protagonists speak and think in French all the time. Or have a Star Trek novel from a Klingon perspective with only Klingon dialogue and inner monologue. I think SE does an admirable job in incorporating the physical attributes of the K'Chain and their culture/history into their motivations and general actions, but that's probably about as far as you can push it until you break any sense of connection between the reader and the subject matter.

yeah i completely agree. good point!. also i think this is partly why gesture and stormy are removed from the bone hunters. so erikson can convey the K'chain point of view from a human perspective. and with the destriant i think she used more to explore the k'chains POV of the world more and their philosophies . whereas erikson uses gesler and stormy to like you said explore the physical attributes of the k'chain. IMO we are quite used to the malazan POV i mean the series is called Malazan book of the fallen. and so erikson kinda uses them to help the reader understand the k'chain view of the world. also a little off topic. i love how the k'chains views and experiences influence gesler stormy and the shield anvil. but at the same time the k'chain themselves are greater influenced. for such an ancient race to be influenced and progress. is kinda cool. ..... so yeah id say that erikson does a pretty good job we get their history and the physical attributes highlights the great differences between humans and k'chain. but he kinda ties it all together using the malazans so the reader has some idea of whats occurring. ..... (apologies if my rambling is hard to understand >.<)

[nacht]

If you dissect the K'Chain Che'Malle, SE added the following interesting attributes

They look like Dinosaurs: But I feel that other than shock value, that does not particularly add anything to the "alien perspective"
They have Swords for Arms: Hmm, this is kind of weird, but again is more for shock value. Wouldn't it better if they have arms and hold different kinds of swords.
They have a Hive mentality: The Matron looks a lot like a Queen Bee (but queen bees mostly just procreate). The drones mostly do her bidding but their lack of independent will is a problem and reflects a backward species (just like Bees are not superior to humans from an evolutionary perspective).
They are Engineers and tech wizards: This is pretty inconsistent with their lack of progress in other areas (like social, cultural, individual, entrepreneurial, philosophical etc.)

I think what came out is a basically a very Intelligent Matron, who can spawn robot drones that pretty much do her bidding. (and there are very few matrons,)

Overall, I think the K'Chain Chemalle are a weak element of his story.

The Nahruk are even less interesting because they their sole ambition seems to be to eliminate the CheMalle.

[worry]

Well, this is a foreign world. Even the "humans" aren't human. As such, every single word of the series should be taken as a "best" translation. Not one word should be taken as the literal unfiltered truth, but rather an approximation by one or more compilers of information attempting (hopefully) to get at the truth. That's as true of Fiddler or Crokus as much as it is of Mappo or Calm or Togg or Gu'Rull.

[worry]

I don't think you can say that, Nacht. The very fact that they have made all that scientific progress belies the fact that they're as limited as you suggest, not to mention the fact that they've cooperated with other species in the past (eg Icarium). And while they do have a hive mentality, they don't have a hive mentality as we understand it from Earth's non-intelligent species. These creatures by and large are individuals (Sulkit is born one), they simply don't have human instincts (not discounting overlap). Dust of Dreams even features a coup attempt.

[Melnibonean Wanderer]

I think the reptilian appearance is justified in that they are said to be descended from dragons. I wonder if the K'ell couldn't grow new blades to suite their needs since they were able to grow bone-saddles for Gesler and Stormy. Sulkit's presence raises a good point: these beings have a different sense of free will than do the humans. I would say that the K'Chain development in those other areas, nacht, occurred in service to their primary drive as technological geniuses and engineers.

[Andorion]

I think its quite possible to write books from a non-human perspective. What needs to be done is the construction of an alternative form of morality and thought. Essentially, imperatives, incentives and principles that make no sense in human rationality have to be determined and fleshed out, their inner interactions worked out and demonstrated. Like Tolkien created a new language, given enough imagination and effort its possible to create a new philosophy. It cannot be a true non-human perspective, but it does not need to be. It needs to be a good approximation of one. The reader is also human and bound by similar limitations as the author. My memory is cloudy but I think Asimov took a stab at this in one of his books....

Regarding the K'chain, I rather liked their PoVs. I think Nacht is being a bit uncharitable here. GuRull demonstrated sharp intelligence and the K'chain have demonstrated enough times that their tech ability outstrips anybody else in the world. Frankly I don't get the thread obsession with individual vs Hive. The K'chain PoVs show they are a compromise between the two. GuRull and the K'ell hunter both showed independent thought. Aside from this I would also like to question this equation of intelligence and success with the individual. There are quite a few cultures who would strongly disagree with the glorification of the indivdual. Its kind of a Western hangup.

[nacht]

 Melnibonean Wanderer, on 29 December 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

I think the reptilian appearance is justified in that they are said to be descended from dragons. I wonder if the K'ell couldn't grow new blades to suite their needs since they were able to grow bone-saddles for Gesler and Stormy. Sulkit's presence raises a good point: these beings have a different sense of free will than do the humans. I would say that the K'Chain development in those other areas, nacht, occurred in service to their primary drive as technological geniuses and engineers.

That's a good view point.

[nacht]

 Andorion, on 30 December 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

I think its quite possible to write books from a non-human perspective. What needs to be done is the construction of an alternative form of morality and thought. Essentially, imperatives, incentives and principles that make no sense in human rationality have to be determined and fleshed out, their inner interactions worked out and demonstrated. Like Tolkien created a new language, given enough imagination and effort its possible to create a new philosophy. It cannot be a true non-human perspective, but it does not need to be. It needs to be a good approximation of one. The reader is also human and bound by similar limitations as the author. My memory is cloudy but I think Asimov took a stab at this in one of his books....

Regarding the K'chain, I rather liked their PoVs. I think Nacht is being a bit uncharitable here. GuRull demonstrated sharp intelligence and the K'chain have demonstrated enough times that their tech ability outstrips anybody else in the world. Frankly I don't get the thread obsession with individual vs Hive. The K'chain PoVs show they are a compromise between the two. GuRull and the K'ell hunter both showed independent thought. Aside from this I would also like to question this equation of intelligence and success with the individual. There are quite a few cultures who would strongly disagree with the glorification of the indivdual. Its kind of a Western hangup.

I like the K;Chain too quite a bit. SE has set a very high standard for describing societies (Lether, Malaz, Seven Cities etc.) and I feel the K'Chain are not setup at the same level. A sophisticated alien culture is definitely within SE's capabilities.
My point is not about the glorification of the individual. Even in hives (ants, bees), there is a quite a lot of complexity in each individual's roles.
The problem with having a central matriarch determining the destiny of the hive is that it is fraught with risk. This is precisely why the matron seeks a human destraint, mortal sword and shield anvil. One Shigal Assassin (who is mostly dormant) is not sufficient diversity. Even in Beehives, the Queen Bee is killed off in certain situations, So the fact that some of them try to kill the Queen and want to eat her brain is almost like a programmed sequence and not really an example of free will. The only way this would work (evolution and society wise) is that there are a lot of matrons (and hives)

[Studlock]

I think some of the Hunters showed signs of a individual sense of self. I think it wasn't so much of a hivemind, not as ants or bees are, they aren't fully chained to the super-organism. It's pretty clear they are sophisticated enough to hunt together as a pack like wolves so calling them bee-like or ant-like doesn't seem to hit the mark. I would suggest as individuals they are at least as self-aware and individualistic as humans can be, or at least some subsets are (the Hunters, the Assassins, the Queen), though because the way they communicate (with chemicals) they have a more biologically enforced hierarchy than humans instead of a social or culturally one. Outside of that they are perfect significantly alien. My favourite aspect isn't so much the scientific advances but the insane level biological plasticity and how that in someways inform they overall cultural. For me the K'Chain were a success.

[D'rek]

Nothing about the way the K'Chain are described/designed bugs me, but I don't think we really saw enough of them to say they were a fully fleshed out race. All we got to see of them was the K'Chain at war. We saw that they do possess individuality, but we have no idea what they do with it. Are there K'Chain Che'Pubs? Do they play K'Chain Che'ss? Did there used to be an Ampelas Rooted versus Karatallid Rooted monthly rugby tournament? Do those presumably-electric cables running through Ampelas Rooted lead to computer terminals where they have K'Chain Ch'ikipedia on their Ameplas Routed network? Do K'ell Hunters shave their legs? Does Bre'nigan have a K'Chain C'ooking hobby when he's off-duty? Does Gunth Mach still daydream about her old high school fling sometimes?

One has to wonder what exactly the K'Chain of Ampelas Rooted have been doing with themselves for tens of thousands of years before the Bonehunters and Nah'ruk showed up to give them some wars to fight.

And that's fine - this is not a series that's about showing off cool alien cultures. Other than the K'Chain, the rest of the races are all pretty much just fuzzy humans, anyways (the Andii even play board games! How cute!). But precisely because this series is not about showing off cool alien cultures, I wouldn't say any of those alien cultures are explored enough to make the perspectives from them all that much different, either.

[Melnibonean Wanderer]

I figured that whatever the others of Ampelas Rooted were up to, it would involve their Matron's desire to learn from the world around them in order to survive. So maybe observing the various human cultures of Letheras, the Letherii Empire and Kolanse. Perhaps they had an awareness of a vague threat coming their way (the Nah'ruk in the Imperial Warren) and so were preparing for war. Maybe learning from their past wars via technological archives or something. All of it is a bit on the side of fanfiction, but within the realm of possibility given what we know of the K'Chain,

[Rod Longshaft]

Ha ha ha that last post cracked me up, d'rek

[Gintokian]

They're dope-ass dinosaurs with sword arms, communicate through BO, and live in flying castles powered by crazy nano-magic, what more can you want?