[Nevyn]

Captain Needa, on 09 August 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

I'm getting the feeling this is going to be like BvS and I should wait for the extended (original?) cut.

I think any cut would still have some issues, but an extended one might actually feel like a movie at least.

[QuickTidal]

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

The characters don't have conversations, they just talk at each other.

This is intentional though. These people are not friends.

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

I also got the sense that there was some weird cutting in the film. Some parts were just too nonsensical.

From what I've heard, there is Ayer's cut (which screened favrouably for test audiences but not over the top, and then there was a cut that was edited (at WB's behest) by the crew who edited the trailers (yes, they hired a whole company for that) and it screened favourably for test audiences but not over the top. As such, the suits at the WB (Read: idiot suits and bean counters) decided that instead of going with one or the other, the theatrical cut is a mix of the two edits. As one of my only complaints with the film, the editing and pacing choices stand out pretty heavily. But yeah, your senses are bang on there. I'm convinced I'll be into Ayer's singular cut over the trailer company one (I hope we get Ayer's in an extended release).

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

And when the film begins with half an hour of pure exposition and backstory, you know there's a problem. Perhaps they feel audiences really are that stupid and won't be able to follow, but how about filling in the backstory and characterisation over, you know, the course of this movie, as we see the characters in action and actually interacting and conversing with each other?

He was pulling an OCEAN'S 11 here. OCEAN'S spends its first 30 minutes with backstory introducing all its characters in separate instances that have nothing to do with anything but their skills. He even re-did this to a lesser extent in OCEAN'S TWELVE when he spend about 15-20 recapping where all those disparate people are, and how they get back in touch. It's an old filmic trope (which is why Soderbergh used it remaking an old Vegas movie), and it felt like it fit, to me anyways, for a film about a bunch of completely different villains.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 09 August 2016 - 12:51 PM

[Siergiej]

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Watched it on Sunday and have to go with the majority opinion, it wasn't great. It wasn't awful, but considering the premise it was dull and unmemorable. Something Nevyn said really struck me as absolutely true: The characters don't have conversations, they just talk at each other.

This. This a thousand times. Nevyn nailed it. The interaction between characters are shallow and pointless. They barely have anything resembling a dialogue up until the bar scene.

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

The characters don't have conversations, they just talk at each other.

This is intentional though. These people are not friends.

Intentional or not, it doesn't work on screen.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

The characters don't have conversations, they just talk at each other.

This is intentional though. These people are not friends.

So what? They are in the same boat, and apart from Harley, none of them is crazy.
Even if they don't trust one another, know each other or don't like one another, for surviving the mission or for escape, working out who to trust (and to what level), who to manipulate (and how) or who to leave alone or stab in the back is their best bet.

[QuickTidal]

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

The characters don't have conversations, they just talk at each other.

This is intentional though. These people are not friends.

So what? They are in the same boat, and apart from Harley, none of them is crazy.
Even if they don't trust one another, know each other or don't like one another, for surviving the mission or for escape, working out who to trust (and to what level), who to manipulate (and how) or who to leave alone or stab in the back is their best bet.

The implication being that a bunch of disparate criminals from all walks of life can easily find a way to work together and an ease enough to banter? Over the course of a few hours....with nothing connecting them beyond exploding collars?

Pick a prison show. OITNB, OZ, whatever...and tell me that's the case. Being the "same boat" doesn't automatically make teams up man... The whole point is that EGO flies in these things. Every single person in this group (including Waller) THINKS they are in charge of their own destinies, and no one else matters or even enters their purview. All Deadshot cares about is that his daughter doesn't think him a jerk. All Harley cares about is getting back to Joker. All Diablo cares about his his guilt. All Killer Croc cares about is being left alone. All Boomarang cares about is thieving, drinking, and fighting. None of those personalities cross over and mesh. None of those goals leaves room for "trusting" anyone else.

And the non-incarcerated side also fits this MO.
Waller. All she cares about is putting together her "team" and manipulating the government for her ends.
Flagg. All he cares about his lost soldier career and his love (June).
Katana. All she cares about is revenge and then reuniting with her lost love (in the sword).

None of that is conducive to any kind of "rag-tag" working together to any ends, because they are ALL still completely self-involved. They only work together because of the exploding collars...and even then begrudgingly.

The bar scene is the catalyst to moving into that territory, and is followed by the ending in which they DO finally work together and speak to each other like a "team".

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 09 August 2016 - 02:17 PM

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 09 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

The characters don't have conversations, they just talk at each other.

This is intentional though. These people are not friends.

So what? They are in the same boat, and apart from Harley, none of them is crazy.
Even if they don't trust one another, know each other or don't like one another, for surviving the mission or for escape, working out who to trust (and to what level), who to manipulate (and how) or who to leave alone or stab in the back is their best bet.

The implication being that a bunch of disparate criminals from all walks of life can easily find a way to work together and an ease enough to banter?

That's not what I said.

Quote

Pick a prison show. OITNB, OZ, whatever...and tell me that's the case. Being the "same boat" doesn't automatically make teams up man...

Once again, not what I said.

Quote

The whole point is that EGO flies in these things.

You don't need caps for emphasis. Especially not if you don't actually read what I wrote but run off with your own interpretation.
I never said these people are friends. I explicitly mention backstabbing and manipulation, which you conveniently skipped over in order to write your little tirade.

What I said is: SS is put together under a very real threat. A threat of being blown to smithereens if they do not stick to the mission.
Since we're talking villains and a concept roughly based on the same premises as The Dirty Dozen, buddying up to do the job as efficiently as possible is one way of coming out alive but unlikely in this case. Yet that is somehow the only thing you read in what I wrote (no idea how you got there).

Instead, yes of course each and everyone of them is still trying to bend the rules and has their own angles, needs and desires.
Like you say:

Quote

....and no one else matters or even enters their purview.[/s] All Deadshot cares about is that his daughter doesn't think him a jerk. All Harley cares about is getting back to Joker. All Diablo cares about his his guilt. All Killer Croc cares about is being left alone. All Boomarang cares about is thieving, drinking, and fighting. None of those personalities cross over and mesh. None of those goals leaves room for "trusting" anyone else.

I said they are in the same boat, and when self-interests align along the same path, one can trust the other to achieve that self-interest right up until the point where that interest is served. Most villains are smart enough to not cut of their nose to spite their face.

For Diablo, who wants to be left with his guilt, not using his powers is the best way of getting out of the mission. He doesn't care about escape, but he cares about not being blown up. Flagg needs to figure out how to blend these individuals into something to succeed in the mission to prove he is not a failure. Deadshot cares about not being a bad person in the eyes of his daughter, and this mission might offer him redemption.
Harley cares about reuniting with Joker, so it goes that she's willing to go along with right up until the point where they served their purpose that anyone willing and able to speed up the reunion. For others, the chance of Joker getting rid of the explosives suit them enough to go along with her - [u]right up until the point where the bomb is disarmed.
Trust never enters the equation, but self-interest and mutual benefit does: so they can trust the others to keep their end of the bargain right up until the point where it is no longer prudent. Therefore, figuring out where the self-interests lie, is logical.

And that kind of intrigue, of temporary alliances, of minor sabotage and of trying to use one another for your own gain is exactly what happens in Oz, in Un Prophete, in The Shawshank Redemption, and even in Orange is the New Black (although what that series does here as a comparison is beyond me). You don't get that by morosely ignoring one another and talking at one another.

Quote

Every single person in this group (including Waller) THINKS they are in charge of their own destinies

No. The convicts have a bomb inside of them, which is no trick, as is proven by Slipknot dying. And please, don't use caps in a discussion. I know you're very fond of them, but I personally find them a teensy tiny bit rude when you're talking to people. It makes me feel like I am talking to salesperson who insists on getting in my personal space.

[amphibian]

He meant EGO the living planet.

[QuickTidal]

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

That's not what I said.

Is it not? You said "for surviving the mission or for escape, working out who to trust (and to what level), who to manipulate (and how) or who to leave alone or stab in the back is their best bet." And I said that they aren't shown as these types of personalities who would do that. Just because you can see an easy way through or a "best bet" doesn't mean that it's realistic to present it that way.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Quote

The whole point is that EGO flies in these things.

You don't need caps for emphasis. Especially not if you don't actually read what I wrote but run off with your own interpretation.
I never said these people are friends. I explicitly mention backstabbing and manipulation, which you conveniently skipped over in order to write your little tirade.

Sorry, tirade? I'm responding to the thread comments with rebuttals as we always do in these threads. It's not a "tirade" of any kind, so please don't cast aspersions that it is. And secondary to that can you not just try to state that I hadn't read what you wrote? I (of course) read it all before replying. You are welcome to dislike my replies (and I guess how they are written?), but can we not do that thing were we assume that because we don't like the reply or disagree with it that the other person chose not to read or digest it?

Backstabbing and manipulation are actually on display in the film. Examples of them are: Boomerang manipulates Slipknot to test out the barriers of the dog collars, Harley backstabs the crew more than once by taking the outs offered her by the Joker, going off to do her own thing a while everyone else gets shot at, Deadshot manipulates Diablo to "get him there" and utilize his powers, Waller manipulates and backstabs everyone form the moment she is introduced including the lowly IT techs around her.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

What I said is: SS is put together under a very real threat. A threat of being blown to smithereens if they do not stick to the mission.

Yes, and I do not disagree with that.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Since we're talking villains and a concept roughly based on the same premises as The Dirty Dozen, buddying up to do the job as efficiently as possible is one way of coming out alive but unlikely in this case. Yet that is somehow the only thing you read in what I wrote (no idea how you got there).

That's pretty much what you said. If you meant something else by it, I failed to read into your actual words then I guess. You never said it was "unlikely in this case". You called it their best bet. I disagreed.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Instead, yes of course each and everyone of them is still trying to bend the rules and has their own angles, needs and desires.
I said they are in the same boat, and when self-interests align along the same path, one can trust the other to achieve that self-interest right up until the point where that interest is served. Most villains are smart enough to not cut of their nose to spite their face.

I fail to see how this didn't actually materialize by the end of the film. Is your issue that it didn't occur till after the bar scene?

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

For Diablo, who wants to be left with his guilt, not using his powers is the best way of getting out of the mission. He doesn't care about escape, but he cares about not being blown up.

This assumes that the bombs in their necks affect him, I don't think it does. His powers kind of negate explosive devices (see the ending) from affecting him. I assumed he went along anyways and not because he was concerned about having his head blown off.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

You don't get that by morosely ignoring one another and talking at one another.

And yet I find what they did inherently realistic to what I'd assume people who were these types of criminals would act like. So again, I disagree. Sorry?

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Quote

Every single person in this group (including Waller) THINKS they are in charge of their own destinies

No. The convicts have a bomb inside of them, which is no trick, as is proven by Slipknot dying.

The bombs in their necks don't enter into the discussion of what I said. They are the impetus to move forward...for sure (it's even in the script as such; Deadshot: "If he (Flagg) dies, we die!")...but they don't have anything to do with their egos feeding them the fact that they are still in charge of their own destinies. They may have bombs in their necks causing them to do what they've been tasked with doing...but they still all believe they can route their way out of it when they get a chance, any chance (Only Harley is ever given this chance when Joker has her bomb diffused) to do so.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

And please, don't use caps in a discussion. I know you're very fond of them, but I personally find them a teensy tiny bit rude when you're talking to people. It makes me feel like I am talking to salesperson who insists on getting in my personal space.

Tapper, I've posted here for a very long time and so have you. As such, my use of CAPS as a shorthand for italics/emphasis (and also for titles of things) is pretty standard for me. You even seem to indicate you're aware I'm using them for emphasis. Do you feel more slighted by me for using that instead of italicizing things for emphasis? I apologize if that's the case, it was not my intention. I assumed you were all used to my quirks, perhaps I shouldn't have.

This is not, nor is it ever, personal man. I figured we are just debating the finer points of the movie (that I liked and everyone else didn't apparently. ) and in no way do I mean to be rude by putting emphasis on words. I have no interest in getting in your personal space. I'm just here to debate the points of the movie with movie-lovers, whether they liked it or disliked it.

[polishgenius]

amphibian, on 09 August 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

He meant EGO the living planet.

I can't believe he's actually going to be in the new Guardians of the Galaxy.


Pity though. He's just a poor man's Mogo. Except he socializes.

[Nevyn]

It is worth noting that when we say no conversation, we aren't just talking about the squad on the mission.

Waller's voice over tells you Flag loves June, and they are on screen together for 3 seasons, and they don't talk back and forth once. The only non Waller establishing moment for the couple is Flag's silent vision from Enchantress, and one sentence from Moone when she returns.

This is not a by design dynamic based on characters not caring about one another. Even the ones who do get shorted. It is a movie that tried to be cool and funny, and in doing so cut out everything else, and then pasted in Waller voice overs and Flag exposition to try and cover all the holes created.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 09 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

amphibian, on 09 August 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

He meant EGO the living planet.

I can't believe he's actually going to be in the new Guardians of the Galaxy.


Pity though. He's just a poor man's Mogo. Except he socializes.

I'm super curious how he'll be portrayed. You know what though, if anyone can pull off having him in the movie, it's James Gunn.

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

And please, don't use caps in a discussion. I know you're very fond of them, but I personally find them a teensy tiny bit rude when you're talking to people. It makes me feel like I am talking to salesperson who insists on getting in my personal space.

Tapper, I've posted here for a very long time and so have you. As such, my use of CAPS as a shorthand for italics/emphasis (and also for titles of things) is pretty standard for me. You even seem to indicate you're aware I'm using them for emphasis. Do you feel more slighted by me for using that instead of italicizing things for emphasis? I apologize if that's the case, it was not my intention. I assumed you were all used to my quirks, perhaps I shouldn't have.

DON'T LISTEN TO TAPPER, QT! I LOVE IT WHEN YOU USE BIG WORDS!

[QuickTidal]

THE PHANTOM MENACE IS AN AWESOME MOVIE!

[Abyss]

YOU SHUT UP HERETIC.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 09 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

amphibian, on 09 August 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

He meant EGO the living planet.

I can't believe he's actually going to be in the new Guardians of the Galaxy.


Pity though. He's just a poor man's Mogo. Except he socializes.

I'm super curious how he'll be portrayed. You know what though, if anyone can pull off having him in the movie, it's James Gunn.

No matter how this plays out, there are going to have to be some horrendous sex jokes.

"The earth moved."

"D'uh."

[Salt-Man Z]

Excuse me, I need to go watch GotG again.

[WinterPhoenix]

Intended to see this movie this week, but other life things have made it so I'd really have to go out of my way to see it - like stupidly late at night or something - and I might have been inclined to do so, but the reviews it has been getting from all sources (critics as well as friends who've seen it) has put me off such a trip. I'm not really all that big of a DC fan, apart from Batman and The Joker in general, but I will admit that they do have a tendency to make better villains than Marvel, my knowledge of the Suicide Squad was spotty at best but it was a concept that really interested me - and I'm still quite interested to see Leto's Joker, even if I'm disappointed to hear he has very little role in the film. So I might still end up seeing it sometime after I'm back from Bloodstock this weekend, it's hard to work up the necessary enthusiasm to want to pay ridiculous cinema prices these days though, bad reviews from all corners make it that much more difficult.

As for Ego, I was sooooo surprised at his inclusion in the Guardians sequel, especially as it seems he will be Star-Lord's father in some manner, very odd! Not sure even James Gunn will be able to get away with having a bearded live planet on screen for very long - even taking into account how much the CGI folks would jump at the chance to use plate tectonics to create a planetary face! - so I guess it's all well and good he can create living humanoid/alien clones of himself - thus skirting the, 'how does a planet impregnate a woman' problem. What we need is Ego Vs Galactus ala Thor v1 #160-161, this I demand!


Erm, apologies for the entirely off-topic rambling...

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 09 August 2016 - 08:10 PM

[Coco with marshmallows]

watched it.

distinctly average and (i suspect) butchered by editing again.

It's telling that Arrow (the TV series) had a better Task Force X with a pittance of a budget and 40 minutes to tell the story in.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 09 August 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

That's not what I said.

Is it not? You said "for surviving the mission or for escape, working out who to trust (and to what level), who to manipulate (and how) or who to leave alone or stab in the back is their best bet." And I said that they aren't shown as these types of personalities who would do that. Just because you can see an easy way through or a "best bet" doesn't mean that it's realistic to present it that way.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Quote

The whole point is that EGO flies in these things.

You don't need caps for emphasis. Especially not if you don't actually read what I wrote but run off with your own interpretation.
I never said these people are friends. I explicitly mention backstabbing and manipulation, which you conveniently skipped over in order to write your little tirade.

Sorry, tirade? I'm responding to the thread comments with rebuttals as we always do in these threads. It's not a "tirade" of any kind, so please don't cast aspersions that it is. And secondary to that can you not just try to state that I hadn't read what you wrote? I (of course) read it all before replying. You are welcome to dislike my replies (and I guess how they are written?), but can we not do that thing were we assume that because we don't like the reply or disagree with it that the other person chose not to read or digest it?

Backstabbing and manipulation are actually on display in the film. Examples of them are: Boomerang manipulates Slipknot to test out the barriers of the dog collars, Harley backstabs the crew more than once by taking the outs offered her by the Joker, going off to do her own thing a while everyone else gets shot at, Deadshot manipulates Diablo to "get him there" and utilize his powers, Waller manipulates and backstabs everyone form the moment she is introduced including the lowly IT techs around her.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

What I said is: SS is put together under a very real threat. A threat of being blown to smithereens if they do not stick to the mission.

Yes, and I do not disagree with that.

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Since we're talking villains and a concept roughly based on the same premises as The Dirty Dozen, buddying up to do the job as efficiently as possible is one way of coming out alive but unlikely in this case. Yet that is somehow the only thing you read in what I wrote (no idea how you got there).

That's pretty much what you said. If you meant something else by it, I failed to read into your actual words then I guess. You never said it was "unlikely in this case". You called it their best bet. I disagreed.

No, I didn't. What I said is that none of them explore what it is that drives one another, to see what they can use.
I would never trust Donald Trump with my life. But if he and I got an assignment to take out a villain, I would trust Trump to do what comes naturally for him (twitter all about how he's going to make it the best hit ever), and I would use that to go in the day before Trump says he will go. That is the matter of 'trust' I mean, not buddying up.

SS could have been a reversed Reservoir Dogs: there, the team goes in as a professional bunch of hired criminals who never worked together, each with a specialty, hiding behind code names. Their differences come to the fore after the heist is fucked up because one of them wasn't a professional criminal, but a cop.
SS has a colourful cast of villains (and let's not forget the non-villain members, who are also powerfuln and/or colourful) who may or may not know one another by reputation, professionally or personally: this could be used to create dialogue, crossing, double crossing and/or building or betraying trust between some of the members. Failing that, there is also another thing, and that is very common in prisons, gangs and criminal organisations: the establishing of a pecking order, of a top dog. Usually, that does not only rely on brawn, but also about being able to build trust or gather favors.

Anyway, that's the meat of my disagreement with you, the rest is extra .

Quote

Tapper, on 09 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

You don't get that by morosely ignoring one another and talking at one another.

And yet I find what they did inherently realistic to what I'd assume people who were these types of criminals would act like. So again, I disagree. Sorry?

Nah, no need to be sorry for having a different opinion. I guess I could have expressed a little better which parts I expected to be better, And what I expected instead, but the fact remains that I think it's not a good movie, and you think it is - not much we can do to convince one another of the other's viewpoint.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 10 August 2016 - 06:37 AM

[Aptorian]

Coco with marshmallows, on 09 August 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

watched it.

distinctly average and (i suspect) butchered by editing again.

It's telling that Arrow (the TV series) had a better Task Force X with a pittance of a budget and 40 minutes to tell the story in.

This is an aside comment but, even though I think The Arrow is atrocious, I was super impressed with their Deathstroke. Deathstroke was such an amazingly realized super villain. I think they could have put him in any of DC big buget films and he would have looked great.

Look at this badass:

This post has been edited by Apt: 10 August 2016 - 07:11 AM