[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 07 July 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

Apt, on 07 July 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

If the cop thinks it is a gun or a knife, and the guy reaches for it, then I could see the officer (and a jury) considering the shooting just.

Two big cops had both his arms pinned at that point. You can see it in the 1st video. I doubt he could reach for anything,

They've got him sort of pinned but that is not a secure position at all. And the guys hand is held down by his side as far as I can tell, which could have given him room to try and slide his hand into his pocket. Which is never a good idea.

It would be interesting to see if the police officers cameras paint a clearer picture.

QuickTidal, on 07 July 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

let alone would anyone attempt to reach their pocket for a weapon when two burly cops are on top of them after tackling them to the ground.

People do a lot of things that aren't sound when they are stressed, afraid or angry. You can't expect any person to react rationally in that situation.

Maybe he really had a gun/knife (looks pretty small) and wanted to defend himself because he knew he was in danger, maybe he had phone in his pocket and was afraid the glass would break or he wanted to call for help.

Lets say the cop sees a corner of something black and plastic sticking out of the victims pocket and he sees the guys hand fumbling for it. How does the cop react? Does he recognize the object as not being a threat? Does he think it might be a weapon? He can't step off the guy because then he could pull out the weapon or he could start running or fighting them. He doesn't want to grapple with the guys arms because then he will lose further control.

Like I said above, that is a clusterfuck of a situation they are in.

If I am ever in the US and a cop shouts at me I think I will just drop to the ground, spread my butt cheeks and pretend I am dead.

This post has been edited by Apt: 07 July 2016 - 02:16 PM

[QuickTidal]

Apt, watch that second video again. The cop has his knee on Alton's left arm and his hand is gripped on Alton's right arm. He is pinned and in no way could he reach for squat.

[polishgenius]

Apt, on 07 July 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

It would be interesting to see if the police officers cameras paint a clearer picture.

It would be, but reports are that "unfortunately" they "fell off" during the struggle.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 07 July 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Apt, on 07 July 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

It would be interesting to see if the police officers cameras paint a clearer picture.

It would be, but reports are that "unfortunately" they "fell off" during the struggle.

I read that too, but the police chief said that they were still functioning, filming and on at the time, they were just on the ground. It won't be as good as it would be if they were on their bodies, but it's a third and possibly 4th POV of what happened. Who knows if they will be any good, but at least they didn't "fall off" and then "turn off" as well.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 07 July 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

Two big cops had both his arms pinned at that point. You can see it in the 1st video. I doubt he could reach for anything, let alone would anyone attempt to reach their pocket for a weapon when two burly cops are on top of them after tackling them to the ground.

Neither officer had the arms pinned. It was genuinely bad technique in terms of physically apprehending Alton - many mistakes.

they dive in on him next to a car going away from it instead of pushing him into it,

the mount (officer sitting on Alton's chest) was very low, meaning that the officer was both bent over and unable to control the arms with his knees, ideally the officer's knees would be in Alton's armpits and the officer upright. This allows for isolation of arms (Alton's arms are prevented from reaching down and the officer can grab one for cuffing and turnover much easier) and increased visibility of what the hands are doing.

The side officer grabs Alton by the throat - which causes panic and ill will in just about everyone and doesn't provide much control to an already grounded person beyond stability for punches to the head.

The side officer also doesn't secure the arm he's physically on, putting a knee on it like that is very easily slipped. He doesn't have visibility on either hand too.

Yes, Alton had a gun, but he doesn't actually look to be going for it, he doesn't turn to his side and curl towards the gun, which is usually how people get guns when on the floor. Instead, he slides the hand as to get the hand off his throat.

This is a series of arresting technique fuckups these assholes have gotten away with for years probably and they killed a guy over it.

The Minnesota shooting of Philando Castile is also bad traffic stop technique that turned deadly when the officer fucked up. There was a child behind Philando too.

Frankly, many, many police departments are not training their people well enough to handle the responsibilities of arresting people, much less shooting them.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 07 July 2016 - 08:13 PM

[amphibian]

Compare those above situations to a white guy pointing a shotgun at people and actually firing a pistol while the officer grappled with him. He's still alive.

http://wncn.com/2016...-county-deputy/

[worry]

The NRA has nothing to say about Philando Castile, and how the 2nd Amendment was never meant for black Americans anyway: http://fusion.net/st...ilando-castile/

[Silencer]

It's amazing how, when a crazy gunman starts shooting up a nightclub, the cry is "of only those poor victims had been armed!", but when a black man gets shot, or more accurately, executed, the cry is "but he had a gun!".

It's amazing to watch essentially an entire nation (or at least a large segment of it) turn on a dime like this and attempt to justify two different positions that are almost complete unable to be reconciled.

Meanwhile blaming someone who was tackled and jumped on for not going perfectly limp and compliant while someone grabs his throat? Wonderful.

In an open-carry state, what is "he's got a gun!" even supposed to mean? I was witness to a debate on Facebook where a white man from Texas actually claimed that if police approached someone with a gun in an open carry state they just have to instantly drop the gun and they'll be fine. Really? If two cops approach you and want to arrest you, this guy thinks you should draw a fucking gun so you can drop it on the ground?!?!

Maybe you get away with that in Texas when you're white, but the *last* thing I would do *anywhere* in the world when confronted by cops is to draw a gun in any way shape or form.
If they weren't jumping on me immediately and appeared relaxed, as I got on the ground and put my hands behind my head I might *inform* them I was carrying, but that's a completely different situation to this here, where it looks like there was no opportunity to do that.

What the even fuck, America?

[worry]

That's the thing though, right? Castile announced he was licensed to carry and had a firearm, like you're supposed to, and was executed anyway. There is literally no safe option for a black person in America when interacting with the police. I don't think it's wrong necessarily to comb the details of individual cases, but in the larger scheme of things they really don't matter. And of course, in a way, given police culture broadly speaking, a lot of people of various stripes are potential targets. But black people disproportionately bear the brunt of it in a whole host of circumstances that can't be rationalized or defended away. The data backs this up: https://thesocietypa...ling-of-blacks/

[Silencer]

Kanyemander West, on 07 July 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

That's the thing though, right? Castile announced he was licensed to carry and had a firearm, like you're supposed to, and was executed anyway. There is literally no safe option for a black person in America when interacting with the police. I don't think it's wrong necessarily to comb the details of individual cases, but in the larger scheme of things they really don't matter. And of course, in a way, given police culture broadly speaking, a lot of people of various stripes are potential targets. But black people disproportionately bear the brunt of it in a whole host of circumstances that can't be rationalized or defended away. The data backs this up: https://thesocietypa...ling-of-blacks/

Yeah, I mean, depending on what the report said, Castile was "reaching for his wallet" - which is genuinely not a good idea when telling a cop you have a gun. The "correct" action is to keep your hands on the wheel and communicate to the officer one step at a time with a lot of requests. "Officer, I have a legal firearm on my person. May I retrieve my wallet from my pocket to show you my license?" *wait for confirmation, then do so very slowly and clearly*

The thing is, that shouldn't be necessary. When I (admittedly like twice at checkpoints and once just because I have a fast car, only) get pulled over by police, I don't have to worry about them shooting me. Ever. Not only do most police here not carry firearms on their person (just tasers), but they have almost no reason to ever get jumpy and shoot at someone they've pulled over - and yes, when they do get into situations where a criminal has a gun, the cops almost always get shot at first, if any gunshots go off at all. That's part of their frickin' job. The thing is, I still benefit from the fact that I'm white. If our cops were more jumpy, I'd still have that advantage. But here, it's less like the difference between getting shot and walking away, and more like the difference between getting a ticket and not getting a ticket. I usually have my license out and ready to go and greet the officer with a cheerful "good evening officer!". Because cops aren't dangerous here, basically.

The trouble is, as you say, in *general* in America the rules are fucked. Because you have a legal right to carry a gun, but also that is immediately an excuse for police to escalate force? And it's applied in a statistically divergent manner depending on your skin colour. That's wrong in so many ways. To my mind it just lends more weight to the removal of the right to carry guns (again; countries where any citizen might be armed have a lot more issues with citizens being routinely shot by police for having a firearm, go figure), but it also highlights a serious issue with the way police operate - they KNOW they live in a country where the NRA exists, where the 2nd is a thing, and in this case, where the State itself has an open carry law...so why do they react so extremely to the presence of firearms? It's just so disconnected from reality that both these things are problems. One or the other, sure. But how both? How does a country end up with both super-lax gun laws AND police who shoot people with guns at the drop of a hat? (I mean, obviously lack of training and general atmosphere of racism, but still...)

[Nicodimas]

Kanyemander West, on 07 July 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

The NRA has nothing to say about Philando Castile, and how the 2nd Amendment was never meant for black Americans anyway: http://fusion.net/st...ilando-castile/

No.

http://bearingarms.c...lack-community/

[EmperorMagus]

Sexy Gumbo, on 08 July 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

If I'd get pulled over with my pistols in truck both of my arms would be out the window with my hands flat against door(which I do anyway on the very few times I've been pulled over) and tell them as their walking up theirs a weapon and most important to me I think ask them to retrieve it vs me doing it. This is the smart thing for all colors and common sense imo.

Common sense is for the police to not execute people. Common sense is for ordinary people to not carry guns.
Groveling in front of power mad maniacs that get paid from your money to protect you is not common sense.


Everytime one of these shootings happen I try to stay out of the conversation because I know I get toxic when talking about them. But this apologist stance that defends people getting shot at over traffic stops is crazy. I honestly cannot understand how black Americans can possibly feel safe in the presence of police officers.

[worry]

Nicodimas, on 08 July 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

Kanyemander West, on 07 July 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

The NRA has nothing to say about Philando Castile, and how the 2nd Amendment was never meant for black Americans anyway: http://fusion.net/st...ilando-castile/

No.

http://bearingarms.c...lack-community/

Did you quote me on accident when posting this entirely unrelated link? Or are you suggesting that black people getting into shootouts with cops is protected under the 2nd Amendment, and is also a viable solution to systemic racism in America's police forces?

[amphibian]

The technique critique above wasn't to show up QuickTidal. It was to show how the uncertainty of position and motions was cause almost entirely by the series of fuckups the police committed while bringing down Alton.

The Philando shooting is different in that the officer made no motion to go behind Philando. Current doctrine for traffic stops in NY has the officer moving back after the initial look-see to put the pillar of the car within reach of a duck behind. That motion also makes the potential gun user have to turn entirely around to shoot while the officer can shoot without turning. It has the tertiary benefit of any missed bullets go into the car and not the backseat.

From the video Diamond has put up, the officer is forwards and was shooting into the car, where a child was in the backseat.

That is awful technique for a traffic stop. Little pieces of physical position give the half seconds to observe and act. They let the jolts of fear turn into accurate responses. And less people die.

The police hate training and it's partly because constant training budgets are hard to fight for politically and partly because the general attitude of police is not conducive to recognition of fuckups and how to correct them. I've seen it in the grappling gym and on the streets (way less often). That attitude is why the escalating actions for Alton go from shitty manhandling to murder.

[Nicodimas]

Sexy Gumbo, on 08 July 2016 - 01:08 AM, said:

Groveling no.

It's informing someone that you are letting them take possession of the weapon while they have full view of your hands vs you doing it in the blind spots of your vehicle. We ll have to agree to disagree there.

I don't know. I was pulled over and had my gun on me, I told the cop and kept my hand's present went for my ID and kept my hand's present. He never took his gun from his holster as I was not a threat. The other time I was a passenger and never disclosed as it was never asked.....

In the future I would probably ask if he want's disarm me. Kinda makes me ancy now. Crazy.

[Nicodimas]

As a note, this is terrifying:

http://www.nydailyne...campaign=buffer

[Andorion]

Uh can anyone here confirm, I am getting news of a large scale shooting in Dallas, police officers hit, maybe civilians also hit?

[Terez]

Yep, details are still thin but we should know more within a few hours.

[Terez]

Looks like the shooters were on nearby rooftops and had rifles. No indication yet that the shooters have been caught.

[Terez]

2 snipers, 10 shot, 3 killed, 2 in surgery, 3 critical. No suspects in custody.