[Studlock]

He had written a manifesto which I refuse to link to (I'm sure you can google it if you're curious) which reads as if he had become radicalized online. Rhodesian and apartheid South African flags were a big hint for me because I've only seen people reminisce about those states in the context of America on the internet. But other types of word usage like capitalizing 'White' is something straight out the Stormfront had bag of bullshit propaganda. This kind of terrifies me because racism on the internet is not some random thing, it's almost omnipresent. If this true internet racism is no longer impotent rage-fueled wankery by unintelligent troglodytes but actions of precise political actors with a goal of purifying America. I don't like that his manifesto has been so widely publicized as it gives other radicalized kids a platform to cling onto.

[Amadaun]

Silencer, on 20 June 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

Yeah, when someone is going to those kinds of lengths, you know they're not rational. "some kind of mixed", what the even...

Let's see here *pulls out bingo card*:

- White People are JESUS.

- Implying that only non-white people can be violent (Let's see...in America, most mass shootings by far are committed by white men.)

- Implying that being "mixed-race" is a bad thing.

- Race/gender/etc doesn't make someone more violent. You might as well say that he was more likely to shoot people because of that stupid haircut. Stupid evo psych.

- Goddammit, when will people realize that this isn't an isolated incident and bigotry kills people?!

Also - I'm 1/32 Native American! Does that make me mixed, m'dear racist twitter folk? Mind you, I'm currently dealing with a horrible sunburn from having spent an hour outside in cloudy weather. While wearing sunscreen. While the redhead I worked with didn't even flinch.

What I'm trying to say is that he's whiter than I am, and that's hard to do.

[Gnaw]

Watching Friday's Real Time. Does Anne Coulter really believe the racist, bat-shit crazy fucked up shit she spews or is she simply cashing checks from the sales of her books?

[worry]

Well, she starts with her conclusions and then hires "experts" to support them, so that should answer the question. Plus there's that moment when she denied all responsibility for the subtitle of her book even though it's no different than the titles of any of her other books.

[Nicodimas]

Gnaw, on 21 June 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

Watching Friday's Real Time. Does Anne Coulter really believe the racist, bat-shit crazy fucked up shit she spews or is she simply cashing checks from the sales of her books?

Random post.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 22 June 2015 - 05:18 PM

[worry]

What's the opposite of progress? http://www.wbez.org/...hootings-112423

[Morgoth]

This American Life had an interesting story about the public schools in the Ferguson area. I would have been pretty pissed at the state too, had I lived there.

[Terez]

There's an interesting story floating around American media about a review of Ta-Nahisi Coates' new book in a Dutch publication. I learned a few things about race relations in the Netherlands that I have never heard from my Dutch friends and acquaintances, even in discussions dedicated to Zwarte Piet (Black Pete, basically Santa's helper in blackface). The Post has the most detailed article:

http://www.washingto...atess-new-book/

[worry]

It's something I've wondered about before in terms of language, but ultimately I don't think "It's an English word and an American problem" cuts the mustard. If we took that at face value then at best it would still just be an attempt at that cynical brand of cutesy edginess "did we just say that? yah we did!" which is pretty gross. There's no way you would seek out that quote in ignorance of the inflammatory nature of the word. But ultimately I don't even buy it. There was nothing academic, journalistic, or enlightening about the headline. And Europe doesn't need to import white supremacy from America, it's got plenty of home grown.

[Terez]

It's true that learning a language does not impart the shock value of offensive words. This is ingrained in childhood. A Francophone friend was telling me about his 3-year-old niece who had learned some French expletive (I don't recall which) much to the distress of his mother. She asked the child's parents to teach her to say "fuck" instead, much to the amusement of my friend who, unlike his mother, at least knows English. But he says even Francophones who know English use it as a euphemistic curse.

[Lycaenion]

Terez, on 14 August 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

There's an interesting story floating around American media about a review of Ta-Nahisi Coates' new book in a Dutch publication. I learned a few things about race relations in the Netherlands that I have never heard from my Dutch friends and acquaintances, even in discussions dedicated to Zwarte Piet (Black Pete, basically Santa's helper in blackface). The Post has the most detailed article:

http://www.washingto...atess-new-book/

Holy shit! I'm Dutch and black (well, Surinamese mixed with Asian heritage, but my skin is brown) and you can't say that!

Quote

because 'N—' is an English word, the offensive value in Dutch is not as direct as it is in English, comparable with the effect of less racially sensitive swear words.

This quote from the article is bullshit! The n-word is just as bad in English as it is in Dutch.

And we have plenty of racism here too; my stomach turns whenever the Zwarte Piet conversation comes up because I know black people will be told to "go back where they came from"(so...like the Dutch hospitals they were born in?) that they "whine" and are "apes" and such shit. I've literally had white people I didn't know come up to me to ask me how I felt about the issue, even though their expressions showed they already thought they knew how I felt. And come December, people will make racist Zwarte Piet jokes towards black people (AND CHILDREN) again, all in the name of "good fun" and "it's just a joke." And if your feelings are hurt, you're being sensitive and petty.

Luckily, my family doesn't celebrate it and none of the kids in my family are in elementary school (because they are forced to celebrate it in school), and we've been more into the whole Santa and Christmas thing anyways, but at the beginning of December, I'm just waiting for Sinterklaas to be finished, so we can get into the Christmas spirit.

*sorry for the rant*

This post has been edited by Lycaenion: 15 August 2015 - 09:37 AM

[Terez]

No need for apologies. I'm silently laughing at all my liberal Dutch friends who defend Zwarte Piet and the N word and all manner of other things that make American liberals go "eh?"

[Terez]

NRC translated the article, changed the headline, and removed the offensive imagery:

http://www.nrc.nl/ni...ican-americans/

There's a note in the right-hand sidebar about the controversy.

[EmperorMagus]

Terez, on 15 August 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

No need for apologies. I'm silently laughing at all my liberal Dutch friends who defend Zwarte Piet and the N word and all manner of other things that make American liberals go "eh?"

I'm curious, why is Zwarte Piet considered so racist? Because we have a similar character in Iranian folklore and I don't understand why it is considered a symbol of Racism.

Haji Firuz

[Terez]

EmperorMagus, on 15 August 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

Terez, on 15 August 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

No need for apologies. I'm silently laughing at all my liberal Dutch friends who defend Zwarte Piet and the N word and all manner of other things that make American liberals go "eh?"

I'm curious, why is Zwarte Piet considered so racist?

Because of the blackface tradition in white entertainment. It was always used to portray black people in caricaturish ways: too-dark skin, too-big lips, stupid expressions and stupid mannerisms.

[EmperorMagus]

Terez, on 15 August 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 15 August 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

Terez, on 15 August 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

No need for apologies. I'm silently laughing at all my liberal Dutch friends who defend Zwarte Piet and the N word and all manner of other things that make American liberals go "eh?"

I'm curious, why is Zwarte Piet considered so racist?

Because of the blackface tradition in white entertainment. It was always used to portray black people in caricaturish ways: too-dark skin, too-big lips, stupid expressions and stupid mannerisms.

Well, I was under the impression that Haji Firuz was "different" from other black face traditions. Apparently not, There goes all my childhood memories. It makes sense though, the tradition is a lot more prevalent in the southern parts of Iran where there is a lot more diversity.

[Terez]

EmperorMagus, on 15 August 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Well, I was under the impression that Haji Firuz was "different" from other black face traditions.

This is probably true, but there are probably some similarities too. In the US today, blackface incidents (which still do occur from time to time) range from extremely offensive to mere appropriation. All are considered taboo, but if a person grows up without much diversity they can easily remain ignorant of such taboos, like asking black people if you can touch their hair.

[Lycaenion]

Quote

@EmperorMagnus, there are several reasons. One is that before slavery, Zwarte Piet, used to be called Piet and was white. After slavery ended, suddenly it was a black caricature in a page costume. Who was very athletic and very dumb. They are smarter now (practically running the show while Sinterklaas is just an old man with a horse and a book full of names), but there was a time where they made jungle sounds while they visited school. Or spoke with stereotypical accents of Surinamese or Antillian people, while acting stupid. That's not something black and brown people want to be be associated with. But they were and they are. I can't count the times when kids and teachers during gym class when we had to get our Zwarte Piet diploma (just a stupid piece of paper) insinuated I'd ace the physical tests because of the colour of my skin. Or when the Zwarte Pieten would come to school and kids would snigger and tell me my family had arrived. Kids point at other kids, or adults, and call them Zwarte Piet in their ignorance on the street, and their parents just smile sheepishly while you are being humiliated, instead of telling their kids that just because they have coloured skin, doesn't mean they are Zwarte Piet.

Sure he gives out candy and presents, but that's not worth it. I'll take the magic of Santa over the racially charged Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet any day.

Terez, on 15 August 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 15 August 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Well, I was under the impression that Haji Firuz was "different" from other black face traditions.

This is probably true, but there are probably some similarities too. In the US today, blackface incidents (which still do occur from time to time) range from extremely offensive to mere appropriation. All are considered taboo, but if a person grows up without much diversity they can easily remain ignorant of such taboos, like asking black people if you can touch their hair.

Actually, they don't ask any more. They just touch it without your permission. Or assume your long hair is fake because "everyone knows black people don't have long hair. Or naturally sleek hair." Except that we do. Because there is such a diversity in black people that we can have any eye colour, any hair colour, any hair style, any skin colour (even whiter than white), freckles, and yes, we don't speak without stereotypical accents, thank you very much. It annoys me that, especially in the Netherlands where most black/brown people aren't from Africa, these stereotypes still run rampant.

I've got very long hair - all natural - and people have come up to me, even other black people, to ask me if my hair is real. Sure, that's fine. But the ones that don't ask, the ones that just assume my hair is fake, those annoy the crap out of me. I've had a couple come up to me, in the bus, while I had earphones in, and the guy (black) asked me if my hair was real. I said yes, he was satisfied. Then the white woman he was with just announced, to the entire bus with a loud voice, "Nah, that hair is fake. Look at it, you can tell." I'm not someone who gets mad easily, I let things slide because explaining why things are wrong often take too much energy and I'm not going to waste my energy on people I don't care for, but that time I just had enough. And I told her, in no uncertain terms, that I didn't like to be called a liar, and that I would know about the "realness" of my hair best, as it was my hair.

Anyways, there are still a lot of instances of racism here in the Netherlands, and a lot now is aimed at Turkish and Morrocan people, though they always reserve some for black/brown people. Even if they don't know they're being racist. Even if they're just ignorant. That's why I always laugh when I hear about white people going to Japan and South Korea and that whole area and crying about being discriminated against. Because they still have it better than people of colour, and yet, they complain.

*sorry for another rant. I haven't really spoken about these things for a long time, and the Zwarte Piet discussion has already been mentioned on the news two times now, so that's going to happen soon - and it's not even December! So I'm blowing off some steam I know I'll keep inside in the upcoming months, which will eat me up inside, but I'm just not going to involve myself in this discussion anymore. It's not going to be resolved in the upcoming years, everyone knows that.*

This post has been edited by Lycaenion: 16 August 2015 - 05:49 AM

[Terez]

Honestly, I love it, partly out of Schadenfreude, partly out of real curiosity, because I have had the Zwarte Piet discussion so many times with Dutch white people to no effect. I always suspected there was more to the story, but what can you do when you don't read Dutch and Dutch people of color are so rare on the internet? (I have always loved the diversity of this forum; I don't wander far from Discussions but this board has enriched my life more than I can say.)

[EmperorMagus]

Terez, on 15 August 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 15 August 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Well, I was under the impression that Haji Firuz was "different" from other black face traditions.

This is probably true, but there are probably some similarities too. In the US today, blackface incidents (which still do occur from time to time) range from extremely offensive to mere appropriation. All are considered taboo, but if a person grows up without much diversity they can easily remain ignorant of such taboos, like asking black people if you can touch their hair.

After reading up on it I'm more inclined to believe that it's at least as racially charged as the other Blackface traditions. Once you take a look at it from that point of view it becomes quite obvious. Although after talking about it with my mother (who goes "outside" far more than I do during holidays, I just lock myself inside and wait for it to be all over) it seems that Haji Firuz has recently (last 20 years) died out in popular culture. I don't know why it has happened but I'm happy about it.