Malazan Empire: The Be-All and End-All Read Order Thread - Malazan Empire

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The Be-All and End-All Read Order Thread SPOILERS!!!

#41 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:18 PM

View PostGorefest, on 02 October 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

I like how we can actually device suggested reading schematics that are more complex than the MBotF story arc itself. I was mollified into general agreement with the book order and in slight awe of the pretty blue arrows, when the red lines hit. My wife says I have been screaming out the little comment sections in my sleep for the past nights now, specifically commenting on the febrile vibe of otherworldly terror creeping in between breathless yelps, and I seem to have developed a permanent twitch in my left eye. I give it four stars.


Extra points for use of the word 'febrile'!
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
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#42 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 07:35 PM

I heard Richard Gere put a febrile up his butt.
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#43 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 02:47 AM

New member spoiler-free thread created - here. Plus, updated chart.

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#44 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 01:42 PM

Personally I would read RotCG after TTH, because I think TTH handles certain reveals better. For the same reason I'd read NoK after DG really.

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Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful


worry said:

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#45 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 01:57 PM

View PostGrief, on 27 October 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Personally I would read RotCG after TTH, because I think TTH handles certain reveals better. For the same reason I'd read NoK after DG really.


You mean Dassem swordtor? I dunno, I think RotCG actually handles it as a 'reveal' to some extent (though frankly, we all had pretty heavy suspicions after HoC), while TtH almost acts like you already know it outright.

As for NoK/DG, opinions are certainly split. I like the NoK reveal better, personally, because the reader gets to experience it themself - they see K&D going into the Azath, then Edgewalker sees them collapsed and the reader thinks ooooh what if, then it is validated by them on the throne - while in DG the reader more just sits back and has Fiddler figure it out then tell them. Sort of.

But neither of our personal opinions is really any more valid than the other, I would say. Hence I put NoK and DG as an either-or situation, and I put RotCG before TtH for the sake of a continuous storyline (it is kind of weird seeing Draconus' release be foreshadowed after Dragnipur breaks, or jumping back in time post-Darujhistan convergence to Traveller wandering about earlier in time).

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#46 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 10:48 PM

View PostD, on 27 October 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

View PostGrief, on 27 October 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Personally I would read RotCG after TTH, because I think TTH handles certain reveals better. For the same reason I'd read NoK after DG really.


You mean Dassem swordtor? I dunno, I think RotCG actually handles it as a 'reveal' to some extent (though frankly, we all had pretty heavy suspicions after HoC), while TtH almost acts like you already know it outright.

As for NoK/DG, opinions are certainly split. I like the NoK reveal better, personally, because the reader gets to experience it themself - they see K&D going into the Azath, then Edgewalker sees them collapsed and the reader thinks ooooh what if, then it is validated by them on the throne - while in DG the reader more just sits back and has Fiddler figure it out then tell them. Sort of.

But neither of our personal opinions is really any more valid than the other, I would say. Hence I put NoK and DG as an either-or situation, and I put RotCG before TtH for the sake of a continuous storyline (it is kind of weird seeing Draconus' release be foreshadowed after Dragnipur breaks, or jumping back in time post-Darujhistan convergence to Traveller wandering about earlier in time).


Yeah, Dassem.

It might just be because I generally wasn't a big fan of Dassem in RotCG, so with the post HOC suspicions I found the reveal underwhelming, in comparison to his role in TTH.

With NoK I think I always liked the more hinted nature of things than seeing it outright. Though this is just personal opinion, and one of my gripes with the series in general (a lot of things are hinted at very effectively and then the execution isn't always up to par).

It's definitely a matter of personal opinion, but I think the chart suggests RotCG is a less either-or matter, which I would disagree with. I never really saw the jumping back in time as being a problem -- in part probably because the only Esslemont before that had been a prequel that expanded on elements hinted at in Erikson's series, so it didn't seem jarring, but also because I think when you're reading books where two authors talk about the same world, some level of this sort of discontinuity is expected anyway, much like variations in characterization.

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Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful


worry said:

Grief is right (until we abolish capitalism).
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#47 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 12:42 AM

Jumping forward back and forth in the chronology based solely on what some of us think is or isn't better is a slippery slope, though. What if I felt that the reveals and themes were better executed if Toll the Hounds was read between Memories of Ice and House of Chains, and I didn't find the jumping around in time bothered me either? (Obviously this is a ludicrously extreme example.)

I think implying by default that having each the storylines proceed in its own chronological fashion is the most logical.

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#48 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 03:48 AM

View PostD, on 28 October 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

Jumping forward back and forth in the chronology based solely on what some of us think is or isn't better is a slippery slope, though. What if I felt that the reveals and themes were better executed if Toll the Hounds was read between Memories of Ice and House of Chains, and I didn't find the jumping around in time bothered me either? (Obviously this is a ludicrously extreme example.)

I think implying by default that having each the storylines proceed in its own chronological fashion is the most logical.


In your extreme example, we have the publishing chronology to fall back upon, which isn't so simple to do between series imo. As well as which, the chronology between RotCG and TTH is close (and following the chronology of the storylines is not ideal either, as it would lead to reading NoK before GotM for example) , and the books focus on very different characters for the most part. Personally, if I had to choose which book to go into not knowing Traveller was Dassem, I'd definitely choose TTH, so I would consider reading it in RotCG to spoil TTH more than anything in TTH spoils RotCG if that makes sense -- this is an opinion, but not one that is only going to be applicable to me. There's nothing in RotCG that is majorly spoiled by reading TTH first, nor really vice versa; the main spoiler is one that goes both ways. The chronology is very close, and really they could be read in either order with essentially the same amount of issues (though personal opinion on which book does the reveal better will vary), and I think the graph really ought to reflect this. Currently the graph has TTH being read after RotCG as "major narrative continuity", which puts it in the same category as TTH being read after MoI, and HoC being read after DG, and that just isn't the case. I wouldn't even call it "minor narrative continuity" in the way reading RotCG post RG is. I would add a disclaimer for those two (since I'd say it's the only case where really it can go either way) or add a new "either way works, it's not really important/it's debateable" arrow.

Cougar said:

Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful


worry said:

Grief is right (until we abolish capitalism).
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#49 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 09:40 AM

View PostGrief, on 28 October 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

View PostD, on 28 October 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

Jumping forward back and forth in the chronology based solely on what some of us think is or isn't better is a slippery slope, though. What if I felt that the reveals and themes were better executed if Toll the Hounds was read between Memories of Ice and House of Chains, and I didn't find the jumping around in time bothered me either? (Obviously this is a ludicrously extreme example.)

I think implying by default that having each the storylines proceed in its own chronological fashion is the most logical.


In your extreme example, we have the publishing chronology to fall back upon, which isn't so simple to do between series imo. As well as which, the chronology between RotCG and TTH is close (and following the chronology of the storylines is not ideal either, as it would lead to reading NoK before GotM for example) , and the books focus on very different characters for the most part. Personally, if I had to choose which book to go into not knowing Traveller was Dassem, I'd definitely choose TTH, so I would consider reading it in RotCG to spoil TTH more than anything in TTH spoils RotCG if that makes sense -- this is an opinion, but not one that is only going to be applicable to me. There's nothing in RotCG that is majorly spoiled by reading TTH first, nor really vice versa; the main spoiler is one that goes both ways. The chronology is very close, and really they could be read in either order with essentially the same amount of issues (though personal opinion on which book does the reveal better will vary), and I think the graph really ought to reflect this. Currently the graph has TTH being read after RotCG as "major narrative continuity", which puts it in the same category as TTH being read after MoI, and HoC being read after DG, and that just isn't the case. I wouldn't even call it "minor narrative continuity" in the way reading RotCG post RG is. I would add a disclaimer for those two (since I'd say it's the only case where really it can go either way) or add a new "either way works, it's not really important/it's debateable" arrow.


Seems to me that where things are equal either way, the publishing order should be the deciding factor in which book is read first.

@D'rek - Would you possibly be able to put together an article on the reading order for the Wiki? There is nothing on the topic there at the moment. Maybe list the publishing order first then the ultimate 'as recommended by readers' list you have compiled here. You could add lots of footnotes about the why and how... If you don't want to go into editing it, if you post it here, I can easily transfer it over :-)

I have been thinking that it would be great if the Wiki also contained more of the peripheral stuff from the Malazan World. Maybe someone could do an article on the various forums that have existed thus preserving some of the names of the most famous forumites for posterity ;-)
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#50 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 07:54 PM

Yeah, I could probably do something like in the roughly near future.

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#51 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 05:26 AM

From the spoiler-free thread:

View PostD, on 09 December 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 09 December 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Quote

OST won't spoil anything in DoD+TCG


Ahem.....yes it does.. kind of.... <spoiler box removed by D'rek - there's a separate thread for spoilers discussion> ........Cant say anymore its the new members thread!


View PostGrief, on 09 December 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

As regards the above, I would pretty strongly recommend reading DoD before OST.

Not sure how important reading DoD and TCG together really is. Either go with OST between DoD and TCG or after TCG.

Or OST after DoD after TCG, that's the proper spoiler free order :The Force:



Not sure I agree. You're suggesting that Hint > Reveal > Unnecessary post-Hint is a better order than Hint > More Hint > Reveal when now that you mention it I think that would be the opposite of the case!

I posted more about this in the spoiler discussion thread. Take a look and see if you agree.



So Draconus.

RotCG: Hints that he can reach a bit beyond Dragnipur when he appears to Murk
TtH: Dragnipur is broken. Envy says he'll show up soon.
OST: There is speculation by Antsy that "Morn" is more than just an Andii spirit/priest. There is no direct assertion or even a direct suspicion that it is Draconus though, this is left to the reader to suspect. Even so, it is pretty clearly said that "Morn" is just a shade, not a corporeal being.
DoD: Manifests on the Akryn battlefield. Becomes buddies with Ublala.
TCG: Draconus continues his badassitude in the Wastelands and Kolanse.


If "Morn" in OST is foreshadowing/hyping up Draconus' return, than it makes even more sense to put OST *before* DoD where he shows up for real. Otherwise you're just getting the hype/foreshadowing after Draconus really does show up, which is kind of weird timing.

Now, for other reasons (mainly the throwbacks between TCG hinting at trouble in Darujhistan and OST hinting at the TCG convergence) I still think OST is best placed right after DoD, but how can this Draconus issue be a problem for OST being earlier?

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#52 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 05:53 AM

Drac also shows up in Darujhistan in front of Envy though, and it's less ambiguous. That said, I don't actually think it's a big deal there either (his appearance in Lether is pretty effective whether you believe he's popping out of Dragnipur right then or not, I imagine). But on the other hand, I think OST only seemed like anticlimax to TCG in real world publishing time, cuz we were reading them as they came. OST as the only post TCG book at the time wasn't wholly satisfying. Now there's OST, FOD, BAB, and Assail and it's not really that big a deal. So I prefer it after TCG anyway. But I like putting SW between DoD and TCG, so grain of salt.
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#53 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 08:39 PM

Right. As you say, it's not like anyone in DoD didn't know Drac might be coming - even if you never read OST, the TtH epilogue makes it pretty clear he is out!

The publishing-vs-now time difference is an interesting point. However, IMO, you still have all these bits in OST like Tayshcrenn referring obliquely to convergent events happening far away. And in TCG you still have the mini-scenes of Picker and Karsa referring to the havoc in the city. I think it flows better to read OST first, get really "hyped" for TCG from Tayschrenn's references, then read TCG and when they link back to OST be like "yeah, I know what that's referring to" than reading TCG first, now getting the references to OST, and then in OST just getting vague references.

Plus I think TCG is likely to blow up people's brains such that they won't even remember there *were* any mysterious references to events in Darujhistan when they get to OST, anwyays...

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#54 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 09:53 PM

That makes sense too. I'll switch it in next reread just to see what it's like.
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#55 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 02:08 AM

My point was that the benefit of a TtH -> DoD -> TCG read is that after that mind-blowing Dragnipur last scene, the next-time you see Draconus would be his epic entrance in DoD. I did it like this and I was in awe of Draconus. An entrance like that is better without foreshadowing.
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#56 User is offline   heavymetaltroll 

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 05:03 AM

Currently re-reading the two main storylines interweaving in what I hope is a logical order. started with NoK followed by by the 1st 6 MBotF (in future reads I'm thinking MT will come right after GotM) and am now on RotCG planning on alternating the rest of the books between MBotF and NotME. I'll let y'all know how it goes in regards to all the sequence and spoiler points already brought up. Given the events of so many of the later books seem to intertwine and cross over, has anyone been crazy enough to break it down to a chapter level? Would really love to switch up between the books in a logical and chronological order but wouldn't know where to start.
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#57 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 02:33 PM

View Postheavymetaltroll, on 07 January 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Currently re-reading the two main storylines interweaving in what I hope is a logical order. started with NoK followed by by the 1st 6 MBotF (in future reads I'm thinking MT will come right after GotM) and am now on RotCG planning on alternating the rest of the books between MBotF and NotME. I'll let y'all know how it goes in regards to all the sequence and spoiler points already brought up. Given the events of so many of the later books seem to intertwine and cross over, has anyone been crazy enough to break it down to a chapter level? Would really love to switch up between the books in a logical and chronological order but wouldn't know where to start.


Cool, I hope the re-read goes well! Thanks!

I semi-jokingly proposed a 99%-chronological order that split at the book/chapter level in another read order thread a long time ago. I'll see if I can find it again. I never had the courage to actually try it, though!

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#58 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 03:51 PM

This is what I had posted a long time back:

View PostD, on 12 April 2009 - 10:04 PM, said:

<!--quoteo(post=566604:date=Apr 6 2009, 01:25 AM:name=Skywalker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skywalker @ Apr 6 2009, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=566604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=566545:date=Apr 6 2009, 06:15 AM:name=petesapizza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (petesapizza @ Apr 6 2009, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=566545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello everybody. New to this website and boy is it awsome. Great resource. Thinking about doing my reread using the chronological order of the books themselves (despite repeated warning of ignoring anything to do with timelines). So it would be:
NoK-BF-LofLE-Hd-MT-GofTM-DG-MoI-HoC-tBH-RG-RoftCG-TTH.
I believe this is the actual chronological order.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Bravo sir... that is indeed the order, although I do think the B&KB novellae might be misplaced. Don't recall why I think that specifically, but I was under the impression at least one of those books was post MOI.

Also, if you want to be absolutely anal about chronological reading order, consider reading the MT, RG, MOI prologues before all else <img src="http://forum.malazanempire.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Or go for the even more extreme chronological order of:

1. RotCG Prologue
2. MT Prologue
3. RG Prologue
4. MoI Prologue
5. NoK
6. GotM Prologue
7. MT
8. HoC I (about halfway through, start reading a chapter of HoC for every book of GotM)
9. DG Prologue
10. HoC Prologue
11. DG and MoI, alternating every chapter or so
12. HoC II-IV
13. BH prologue
14. BH (during the last book, start alternating chapters with the start of RG)
15. finish off RG
16. RotCG
17. TtH prologue except for the first part
18. TtH
19. 1st part of TtH prologue
20. TtH epilogue
21. DoD prologue


(of course then there's the even crazier version where all your read a bunch of random flashbacks before starting any of the novels for real...)



(wow did my grammar used to suck or what... haha who am I kidding 'used to' :) )

 worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#59 User is offline   theocean 

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 03:53 PM

View PostD, on 08 January 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

This is what I had posted a long time back:

View PostD, on 12 April 2009 - 10:04 PM, said:

<!--quoteo(post=566604:date=Apr 6 2009, 01:25 AM:name=Skywalker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skywalker @ Apr 6 2009, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=566604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=566545:date=Apr 6 2009, 06:15 AM:name=petesapizza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (petesapizza @ Apr 6 2009, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=566545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello everybody. New to this website and boy is it awsome. Great resource. Thinking about doing my reread using the chronological order of the books themselves (despite repeated warning of ignoring anything to do with timelines). So it would be:
NoK-BF-LofLE-Hd-MT-GofTM-DG-MoI-HoC-tBH-RG-RoftCG-TTH.
I believe this is the actual chronological order.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Bravo sir... that is indeed the order, although I do think the B&KB novellae might be misplaced. Don't recall why I think that specifically, but I was under the impression at least one of those books was post MOI.

Also, if you want to be absolutely anal about chronological reading order, consider reading the MT, RG, MOI prologues before all else <img src="http://forum.malazanempire.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Or go for the even more extreme chronological order of:

1. RotCG Prologue
2. MT Prologue
3. RG Prologue
4. MoI Prologue
5. NoK
6. GotM Prologue
7. MT
8. HoC I (about halfway through, start reading a chapter of HoC for every book of GotM)
9. DG Prologue
10. HoC Prologue
11. DG and MoI, alternating every chapter or so
12. HoC II-IV
13. BH prologue
14. BH (during the last book, start alternating chapters with the start of RG)
15. finish off RG
16. RotCG
17. TtH prologue except for the first part
18. TtH
19. 1st part of TtH prologue
20. TtH epilogue
21. DoD prologue


(of course then there's the even crazier version where all your read a bunch of random flashbacks before starting any of the novels for real...)



(wow did my grammar used to suck or what... haha who am I kidding 'used to' :) )


im sorry but your grasp of this series is amazing.
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#60 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 10:55 AM

Hi D'rek,

I have taken the liberty of copying the reading order across to the Wiki and put in a link back to this thread. Hope that's ok.

I would be grateful if you and anyone else interested in the topic would take a quick look at it and check it over for any obvious mistakes.

http://malazan.wikia...d_reading_order

Many thanks
Egwene
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