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Abyss, on 23 October 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:
Andorion, on 23 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:
My other main beef with RJ, and though this came through Nynaeve trying to teach the sea Folk, but its a pretty general beef:In RJs world trust and co-operation are foreign words. ...
Hardly in RJ's world... that's human nature and he makes it pretty clear this is after generations of distrust and concealing channeling to avoid conflict with the Aes Sedai. It's hardly unrealistic that the Sea Folk and Aeil don't just throwing their arms open to the most secretive and manipulative group on the planet.
Sure, the Last Final End Battle is Coming, but most of them don't know what that means, how close it is and/or have their own prophecies and ideas about how to deal with it.
I acknowledge RJ overstated the point a few dozen times, but it's hardly unrealistic behavior.
acesn8s, on 23 October 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:
...., I think Jordan got lost in the minutia. I think an editor who wasn't his wife might have been able to keep him on task and maybe saved us a book or two over the course of the series.
I suspect the publisher feels otherwise, because money.
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What is more irritating is that RJ can make groups evolve, but chooses not to. For example the rivalry among the different national armies in Rand's camp is mentioned many a time. Its understandable, Especially between Illian and Tear. But Mat manages to turn a diverse group into a cohesive whole in his band.
Yes, and that's (one reason) why Mat is awesome, and Rand is not Mat. Also, you're not done the series.
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An example of the realistic attitude that would be more plausible oddly enough comes from Cadsuane one of the most dominating women of the Aes Sedai:
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She understands the very fundamentals. Rand has to reach Tarmon Gaidan, he has to be sane and normal until then. Saddling him with advisers, or trying to kidnap him, or forcefully bonding him won't work.
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She understands the very fundamentals. Rand has to reach Tarmon Gaidan, he has to be sane and normal until then. Saddling him with advisers, or trying to kidnap him, or forcefully bonding him won't work.
Sure, but if everyone just agreed with that approach it would have been a pretty boring series.
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...The second aspect is the idea that if anyone disagrees with you, you can just have them beaten up. ...No actual power relation works that way.
Malaysia, Singapore and Taiwan say you're wrong.
(Afganistan too, but who cares what they think ...)
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The existence of the Gray diplomatic Ajah is a farce existing in the same universe as this.
The Grays exist to sort out disputes between nations, not internal Aes Sedai crap.
RJ WANTS the reader to be frustrated by characters' actions... but you seem to be trying to reconcile his world with reality to the detriment of your enjoyment of the books. There's enough garbage there to wade through with trying to compare it to 'reality' and how you think the characters should be acting.
Also, a lot of this is RAFO. That the plots aren't moving along fast enough puts you in company with most of us who found that element of the series frustrating.
I understand it can be tough to overcome centuries of prejudice, I am not asking for a whole institutional conversion, but a few sensible individuals would have been nice. I mean Egeannin the Seanchan, who had an ingrained, trained and in Seanchan terms fuly justifiable view that all channellers would have to be Damane started listening to Aes Sedai, asking questions, breaking rules. And thats in a few weeks. Would it have been too much to give just a few similar people from the Aiel and the sea Folk? You know just to break the monolithics structure, add some variety etc.
I don't want all the Aes Sedai to start thinking like Cadsuane, but out of around 1000 odd sisters, only Cadsuane, Moiraine and to some extent Verin have even a basic idea of how to deal with him? Thats what's odd. Most of the Aes Sedai come across as petty and rigid. A few more would have been better. Actually I had been anticipating a faction splinter group who stand with the Dragon Reborn and other factions take different approaches, but between Moiraine vanishing and Cadsuane turning up there was no such group. Shouldn't the Aes Sedai be smarter than this?
Regarding the Gray Ajah I was referring to international incidents. Multiple times there have been references to Aes Sedai bringing physical force to bear on rulers. Isn't that kind of the opposite of diplomacy? Also the Gray would have been really useful in establishing first relations with the Aiel instead of the mess that happened after Dumai's Wells.
I am not only comparing it to reality. My main problem with some of the big features of this series is that they have no parallels in fantasy I have read either. Now that by itself is not a bad thing. Uniqueness is good. But the stuff thats missing, well a lot of it is what makes a book enjoyable for me Like there is no camaraderie, no banter, no lighter moments. Except with Mat. One of the most pricelss parts of Malazanwas the banter between the marines. We never see that, though the Maidens were an excellent group for something like this. Nearly all relations are in terms of Domination and submission. This makes the WoT world very bland, when with so many characters, so many cultures it could have been so much richer. Again I am not saying all authors have to follow a simialr template in writng military narratives, or even epic fantasy narratives. But if you take out the banter and replace it with frustrating stubbornness and conflict and that keeps on going for 7-8 books, the reader will feel a bit put upon.
Finally, why exactly does RJ want the reader frustrated? I mean SE wants the readers to find out stuff, puzzle out things, connect clues, so he doesn't infodump, which is why the books are so much richer on a reread. But whats the payoff for frustration and anger caused not by absent clues but due to the sheer stubbornness of characters? I mean how does the reader gain? The climaxes are good, but I have read better. The battle scenes would really benefit from more detail. So what is the point of antagonising the reader? Is it RAFO? is there a mind-boggling convergence to come? If so, excellent.
One of my big worries now is how its all going to be pulled together. Things have blown up and scattered to such an extent....
