[Abyss]

Andorion, on 28 August 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Abyss, on 28 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

...

Agreed, and the real question is when/how/why Rake concludes that Drac is the wrong hands, and whether Envy had anything to do with that.

Off-the-top-of-my-head hypothesis: The civil war in Kharkanas turns really nasty, Thousands are killed, stuff is destroyed. Chaotic Eleint magic is unleashed, the Draconic Soletaken emerge, Draconus gets increasingly embittered/desperate as the Tiste are his people as in he among the Azathenai take care of them, manage their affairs. Mother Dark probably estranges herself from him too. He starts to lose it and wields Dragnipur randomly and regularly. Maybe he takes entire armies into Dragnipur, or people really close to Rake or both. Rake decides that such a force constitutes a threat to the Tiste on a fundamental level and hatches a plot with Envy to acquire it. After that, Draconus and Rake clash, Rake wins, etc etc.

Total guesswork,

Workable... but some details don't quite line up... the Tiste aren't his people, just Mommy D and i suppose by extension the Tiste Andii.


...in the i think it was RCG prologue we saw Drac, apparently on the Malazan world since he was chatting with a Thel Akai about Osserc, with his pre-Dragnipur void thingy.

...and then there's the MoI prologue which is absolutely on the Malazan world, where Dragnipur wasn't even made yet, thus well after the breaking up of the world we see in FoD.

....unless time travel.


...and of course, whatever flip is coming in the Kharkanas series means that we could see one set of events turn into a completely different set of events.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 28 August 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Andorion, on 28 August 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Abyss, on 28 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

...

Agreed, and the real question is when/how/why Rake concludes that Drac is the wrong hands, and whether Envy had anything to do with that.

Off-the-top-of-my-head hypothesis: The civil war in Kharkanas turns really nasty, Thousands are killed, stuff is destroyed. Chaotic Eleint magic is unleashed, the Draconic Soletaken emerge, Draconus gets increasingly embittered/desperate as the Tiste are his people as in he among the Azathenai take care of them, manage their affairs. Mother Dark probably estranges herself from him too. He starts to lose it and wields Dragnipur randomly and regularly. Maybe he takes entire armies into Dragnipur, or people really close to Rake or both. Rake decides that such a force constitutes a threat to the Tiste on a fundamental level and hatches a plot with Envy to acquire it. After that, Draconus and Rake clash, Rake wins, etc etc.

Total guesswork,

Workable... but some details don't quite line up... the Tiste aren't his people, just Mommy D and i suppose by extension the Tiste Andii.


...in the i think it was RCG prologue we saw Drac, apparently on the Malazan world since he was chatting with a Thel Akai about Osserc, with his pre-Dragnipur void thingy.

...and then there's the MoI prologue which is absolutely on the Malazan world, where Dragnipur wasn't even made yet, thus well after the breaking up of the world we see in FoD.

....unless time travel.


...and of course, whatever flip is coming in the Kharkanas series means that we could see one set of events turn into a completely different set of events.

At the time of FoD though, there is no division among the Tiste. There are no Edur, no Liosan. Yet. And I am totally blanking on this, but in FoD didn't Draconus have a conversation with some Azathenai, I am forgetting which one, where it became clear that some of the Azathenai patronise/protect/manipulate different races, i think Its Olar Ethi here, and Draconus chooses to mingle with the Tiste. Of course that 'choice' could totally be because of his feeling for MD. But, if through MD, he accepts the Tiste as his people, then their civil war, would not put him in the best of moods.Draconus in a bad mood is basically equal to tornado swarms.

I totally admit there's a huge time gap regarding Dragnipur. After all in the MoI prologue he admits he is thinking about making a sword. In RotCG he had it in some form. In the RG prologue Rake goes with Kilmandaros into Emurlahn to cleanse it and there Kilmandaros tries to betray him. He did not have Dragnipur then, as surely Kilmandaros would have ended up inside it. According to the Errant the 'dalliance with Envy' happened before he went into Emurlahn, and he came out with Silanah. Somehoe, and again this is pure hypothesis, Draconus and Dragnipur were part of the Emurlahn war, and Rake took Dragnipur at this time.

But this whole set-up is very shaky, and by the time Kharkanas is over, I am pretty sure we will have a totally different perspective on this

[The Old Guard]

It could also be that our perspective is somewhat skewed. In FoD the events seem to go downhill fast. Like, REALLY fast. Now, if we assume that SE will stay consistent with his "I don't give a damn for the exact dates, but I know exactly the chronological order of events" mentality it could be that there is a time lapse between novels in the Kharkanas Trilogy or even inside the very FoL book.

Keep in mind, the Andii are extremely long-lived (examples: Endest Silann/Spinnock/Kadaspala) so it is conceivable.

Still, this is only guesswork... 2015 can't come soon enough

[The Azath Made Flesh]

Important to note...in MOI prologue, Draconus doesn't say he is thinking of forging a sword - he says he HAS been forging a sword...since the time of all darkness.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 28 August 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

There's a lot of foreshadowing in FoD about Rake acquiring a sword, but, given the power and nature of Dragnipur, as well as Rake's nature I like to think his acquiring of Dragnipur had more to do with keeping it out of the wrong hands. Plus, Dragnipur just lying around is a pretty big danger. Recall the scene in TtH where he puts down Dragnipur and the rock begins to bleed.

The "out of the wrong hands" was how I read Rake's keeping of Dragnipur. Someone at some point voices the thought that only he could carry the metaphorical "weight" of the sword (is it Whiskeyjack thinking it in MoI?) - and let's face it, it would/could be an absolute disaster in the wrong hands.I always felt it had some overtones of "with great power, great responsibility" too.

[Mentalist]

Draconus waxes lyrical about Dragnipur to Paran in MoI. He started making Dragnipur to "help" Darkness against Chaos by anchoring the Gate.

He also speaks of the birth of Light and Shadow as progressive "losses" in Dark's struggle against Chaos.

My guess would be, we'll see him beginning to think about making Dragnipur at the end of the civil war, once the Eleint join the picture, and "Chaos" arrives in force.
-we may even get to see a KCCM "death of the universe" ritual that'll "set" Chaos to "pursue" order forever (that Edur legend mentioned in MT, I believe). Drac's forging could be a reaction to that, I guess.

And as others have said, the sword's not supposed to be completed till post-the Fall of CG, as per MoI prologue. That's when Drac supposedly modified it to be breakable, as an answer to Kallor's curse.

So in sum, I agree with worry, we won't be seeing a Rake v Drac fight in Kharkanas, most likely.

[Adaephon Ben Delat]

my guess is Draconus (from his character) agreed to go in (similar to the arrangement hood made with Rake in RG) as a long term plan to thwart Errastas who he was mad at.

I don't see the Draconus we've been shown lifting a weapon against Rake for any reason. he'd rather allow Rake take the sword

[Adaephon Ben Delat]

Mentalist, on 22 September 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Draconus waxes lyrical about Dragnipur to Paran in MoI. He started making Dragnipur to "help" Darkness against Chaos by anchoring the Gate.

He also speaks of the birth of Light and Shadow as progressive "losses" in Dark's struggle against Chaos.

My guess would be, we'll see him beginning to think about making Dragnipur at the end of the civil war, once the Eleint join the picture, and "Chaos" arrives in force.
-we may even get to see a KCCM "death of the universe" ritual that'll "set" Chaos to "pursue" order forever (that Edur legend mentioned in MT, I believe). Drac's forging could be a reaction to that, I guess.

And as others have said, the sword's not supposed to be completed till post-the Fall of CG, as per MoI prologue. That's when Drac supposedly modified it to be breakable, as an answer to Kallor's curse.

So in sum, I agree with worry, we won't be seeing a Rake v Drac fight in Kharkanas, most likely.

He starts making it in FoL. I would quote but I don't know how to insert spoiler tags

[Vengeance]

Ben you can enter spoilers by clicking on the other styles drop down and choosing spoiler from the 4 from the bottom of the list.

Please not ths you cannt see the drop down in the mobile format. You will need to flip your view to one of the other backgrounds.

Thanjs

Venge

[Stoneburner]

I recall Drac in one of the books was rethinking the "finality" of dragnipur when he was forging it because of Kallor's curse. I had the impression he sort of knew it was coming and used it as an escape from Kallor's curse.

[Abyss]

Stoneburner, on 20 June 2016 - 04:18 AM, said:

I recall Drac in one of the books was rethinking the "finality" of dragnipur when he was forging it because of Kallor's curse. I had the impression he sort of knew it was coming and used it as an escape from Kallor's curse.

this vaguely nags at my brain but I can't quite nail it. Anyone have some quote fu?

[Nevyn]

Abyss, on 04 July 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Stoneburner, on 20 June 2016 - 04:18 AM, said:

I recall Drac in one of the books was rethinking the "finality" of dragnipur when he was forging it because of Kallor's curse. I had the impression he sort of knew it was coming and used it as an escape from Kallor's curse.

this vaguely nags at my brain but I can't quite nail it. Anyone have some quote fu?

It is from the MOI Prologue:

Quote

Then Draconus spoke, 'Since the time of All Darkness, I have been forging a sword.'

Both K'Rul and the Sister of Cold Nights turned at this, for they had known nothing of it.

Draconus continued. 'The forging has taken ... a long time, but I am now nearing completion. The power invested within the sword possesses ... a finality.'

'Then,' K'Rul whispered after a moment's consideration, 'you must make alterations in the final shaping.'

'So it seems. I shall need to think long on this.'

Happens right after they exchange curses with Kallor.