[theocean]

Does anyone have a guess time line wise as to whether we will see the forging of dragnipur and the battle between rake and DraCe in this book or even in this seperate part of the trilogy. I know nothing is known for sure, but anyone with more knowledge have an educated guess on the matter?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

In MoI it was said that Draconus was fashioning a sword (Dragnipur) after the Fall when Kallor destroyed his empire. Either that will be ret-conned or shoe-horned into the Khark Trilogy, to make the sequence fit, or it won't be in there at all. It may even be written in a way that completely makes sense and jives with the MoI stuff.

I guess it's tough to tell, since the timeline doesn't matter. Wish there was a better answer but we really won't know until at least next year...

[Aptorian]

In one of... was it Esslemont's prologues? We see Draconus hunting Osserc with an unfinished Dragnipur during the Elder Times. Meaning that even after the Civil War and the Sundering, Dragnipur was still not much more than a dark void with chains inside it.

[worry]

I think there's gonna be a huge chunk of time post-trilogy and pre-MBOTF that we're just gonna have to fill in the gap with what we can piece together. So my answer is basically "No."

[Andorion]

Apt Hoc, on 21 August 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

In one of... was it Esslemont's prologues? We see Draconus hunting Osserc with an unfinished Dragnipur during the Elder Times. Meaning that even after the Civil War and the Sundering, Dragnipur was still not much more than a dark void with chains inside it.

Spoiler for RotCG prologue

Looked that up. That was the RotCG prologue. It was really weird. To start with Osserc had tusks. Like jaghut tusks. In no other description of Andii, Liosan or edur are tusks mentioned or emphasised but suddenly he has tusks.. Also he was assaulting an Azath house. There was another chap caled Denuth who was speculating that he was trying to be part of the ALL and then along comes Draconus with a void of night in his belt from which you can hear the sound of chains and he says that his strategy is better.

What does the ALL mean? Mother Dark? Why was Osserc attacking an Azath? Is this the Azath where Ruin and one of the three sisters was trapped? Frankly I found the entire thing more confusing than revelatory.

[Aptorian]

Osserc has become an Elder God at one point. Worshippers give their gods shape. Somebody, maybe the dogrunners, probably envision Osserc as a tusked god.

As for the Azath, according to Osserc, he just wanted to know what happens when you fuck up an Azath.

[Andorion]

Osserc is weird.

[Aptorian]

Yes. Yes he is.

When we met him in HoC he seemed very sombre, very god like. Maybe because we were seeing him through the eyes of his son, maybe because we saw him as a kind of mirror antagonist to Rake, but the god we met seemed like an authority.

Then we meet Esslemonts Osserc/Osric/Liossercal and he seems much more chaotic. Unreadable. Young. The Osserc that we see in Blood and Bone seems unsure and impatient. Like a freshly minted Ascendant, not the half a million year old Elder God that he is.

Esslemonts Osserc is weird.

And I kind of like that.

[theocean]

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

[Andorion]

Apt Hoc, on 22 August 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Yes. Yes he is.

When we met him in HoC he seemed very sombre, very god like. Maybe because we were seeing him through the eyes of his son, maybe because we saw him as a kind of mirror antagonist to Rake, but the god we met seemed like an authority.

Then we meet Esslemonts Osserc/Osric/Liossercal and he seems much more chaotic. Unreadable. Young. The Osserc that we see in Blood and Bone seems unsure and impatient. Like a freshly minted Ascendant, not the half a million year old Elder God that he is.

Esslemonts Osserc is weird.

And I kind of like that.

And then there is Mr. Unstable Osserc from Kharkanas

[Andorion]

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

The impression I have got of Draconus so far, and this is keeping in mind that we have not actually seen Draconus fight on screen, is that he has megajoules of power topped off with a burning temper. That temper may have been tamed a bit within Dragnipur, but he is fundamentally a bit of a hothead. On the other hand can you imagine Anomander Rake losing his cool over anything and doing something stupid? I imagine that figt as Draconus came roaring in and Rake tripped him up with some intricate plan of his. I mean how else does Draconus end up in Dragnipur?

The other solution is Draconus tripped, fell and stabbed himself, whcih somehow I cant see him doing.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

The impression I have got of Draconus so far, and this is keeping in mind that we have not actually seen Draconus fight on screen, is that he has megajoules of power topped off with a burning temper. That temper may have been tamed a bit within Dragnipur, but he is fundamentally a bit of a hothead. On the other hand can you imagine Anomander Rake losing his cool over anything and doing something stupid? I imagine that figt as Draconus came roaring in and Rake tripped him up with some intricate plan of his. I mean how else does Draconus end up in Dragnipur?

The other solution is Draconus tripped, fell and stabbed himself, whcih somehow I cant see him doing.

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 22 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

The impression I have got of Draconus so far, and this is keeping in mind that we have not actually seen Draconus fight on screen, is that he has megajoules of power topped off with a burning temper. That temper may have been tamed a bit within Dragnipur, but he is fundamentally a bit of a hothead. On the other hand can you imagine Anomander Rake losing his cool over anything and doing something stupid? I imagine that figt as Draconus came roaring in and Rake tripped him up with some intricate plan of his. I mean how else does Draconus end up in Dragnipur?

The other solution is Draconus tripped, fell and stabbed himself, whcih somehow I cant see him doing.

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

Is that why she totally freaks out in OST when Draconus lets her know he is back in the game?

[theocean]

I dont see Drac in that way really. I think he was pretty measured in FOD. He couldve gone apeshit a few times and seemed to basically keep his cool. I mean it seems with someone of his power he couldve dominated whoever he wanted to in FOD and he seemed to chose not too. Rake on the other hand I think back then seems like someone who couldve raged. Malazan Era Rake not much but i think he sort of learned that restraint. Thats my perception at least. I wonder if Envy just strolled in and strolled out with Drag and just handed it to rake for safe keeping then drac comes looking for it.

[Rehvenge]

Abyss, on 22 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

The impression I have got of Draconus so far, and this is keeping in mind that we have not actually seen Draconus fight on screen, is that he has megajoules of power topped off with a burning temper. That temper may have been tamed a bit within Dragnipur, but he is fundamentally a bit of a hothead. On the other hand can you imagine Anomander Rake losing his cool over anything and doing something stupid? I imagine that figt as Draconus came roaring in and Rake tripped him up with some intricate plan of his. I mean how else does Draconus end up in Dragnipur?

The other solution is Draconus tripped, fell and stabbed himself, whcih somehow I cant see him doing.

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

Didn't Rake said to her that her help was simply that she stayed out of it, and she admited it was true but still counted as a betrayal?

[The Old Guard]

Rehvenge, on 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

The impression I have got of Draconus so far, and this is keeping in mind that we have not actually seen Draconus fight on screen, is that he has megajoules of power topped off with a burning temper. That temper may have been tamed a bit within Dragnipur, but he is fundamentally a bit of a hothead. On the other hand can you imagine Anomander Rake losing his cool over anything and doing something stupid? I imagine that figt as Draconus came roaring in and Rake tripped him up with some intricate plan of his. I mean how else does Draconus end up in Dragnipur?

The other solution is Draconus tripped, fell and stabbed himself, whcih somehow I cant see him doing.

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

Didn't Rake said to her that her help was simply that she stayed out of it, and she admited it was true but still counted as a betrayal?

Well, if I remember correctly, that's the case. But if so then what of Spite? What was she doing at the time? From what we've seen now the three sisters were so tight as kids that even Death wasn't enough to part them .

[prq]

Rehvenge, on 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

The impression I have got of Draconus so far, and this is keeping in mind that we have not actually seen Draconus fight on screen, is that he has megajoules of power topped off with a burning temper. That temper may have been tamed a bit within Dragnipur, but he is fundamentally a bit of a hothead. On the other hand can you imagine Anomander Rake losing his cool over anything and doing something stupid? I imagine that figt as Draconus came roaring in and Rake tripped him up with some intricate plan of his. I mean how else does Draconus end up in Dragnipur?

The other solution is Draconus tripped, fell and stabbed himself, whcih somehow I cant see him doing.

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

Didn't Rake said to her that her help was simply that she stayed out of it, and she admited it was true but still counted as a betrayal?

Already in FoD, Rake seems to have a desire for a unique sword. We know Grief doesn't end with him as it gets eventually in Andarist's hands (in HoC, iirc). Probably Rake's relationship with Envy brought up those feelings of being Envy-ous of Draconus's sword?

[Andorion]

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Rehvenge, on 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I just really want to see drac v rake play out on paper. I feel like that would be the best fight we have or could see in the series. I hate not knowing how the fight played out.

The impression I have got of Draconus so far, and this is keeping in mind that we have not actually seen Draconus fight on screen, is that he has megajoules of power topped off with a burning temper. That temper may have been tamed a bit within Dragnipur, but he is fundamentally a bit of a hothead. On the other hand can you imagine Anomander Rake losing his cool over anything and doing something stupid? I imagine that figt as Draconus came roaring in and Rake tripped him up with some intricate plan of his. I mean how else does Draconus end up in Dragnipur?

The other solution is Draconus tripped, fell and stabbed himself, whcih somehow I cant see him doing.

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

Didn't Rake said to her that her help was simply that she stayed out of it, and she admited it was true but still counted as a betrayal?

Already in FoD, Rake seems to have a desire for a unique sword. We know Grief doesn't end with him as it gets eventually in Andarist's hands (in HoC, iirc). Probably Rake's relationship with Envy brought up those feelings of being Envy-ous of Draconus's sword?

There's a lot of foreshadowing in FoD about Rake acquiring a sword, but, given the power and nature of Dragnipur, as well as Rake's nature I like to think his acquiring of Dragnipur had more to do with keeping it out of the wrong hands. Plus, Dragnipur just lying around is a pretty big danger. Recall the scene in TtH where he puts down Dragnipur and the rock begins to bleed.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

Is that why she totally freaks out in OST when Draconus lets her know he is back in the game?

Yes. It's also raised in MoI in her chat with Krul, and at the end of TtH.

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

I dont see Drac in that way really. I think he was pretty measured in FOD. He couldve gone apeshit a few times and seemed to basically keep his cool. I mean it seems with someone of his power he couldve dominated whoever he wanted to in FOD and he seemed to chose not too. Rake on the other hand I think back then seems like someone who couldve raged. Malazan Era Rake not much but i think he sort of learned that restraint. Thats my perception at least. I wonder if Envy just strolled in and strolled out with Drag and just handed it to rake for safe keeping then drac comes looking for it.

By most references i can remember, by the time Rake and Drac throw down over Dragnipur, Draconus was a fairly horrible person in the 'Elder Gods like blood' sort of sense, but we can't necessarily accept anything we've read as true.

The Old Guard, on 22 August 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Rehvenge, on 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Didn't Rake said to her that her help was simply that she stayed out of it, and she admited it was true but still counted as a betrayal?

Well, if I remember correctly, that's the case. But if so then what of Spite? What was she doing at the time? From what we've seen now the three sisters were so tight as kids that even Death wasn't enough to part them

I believe that was stated, also in MoI to Krul but i could be wrong.

As for Spite, we don't know when her split with Envy happened but that's a full answer for why she wasn't there.
It's also possible she was but Drac didn't look to her for help.

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Already in FoD, Rake seems to have a desire for a unique sword. We know Grief doesn't end with him as it gets eventually in Andarist's hands (in HoC, iirc). Probably Rake's relationship with Envy brought up those feelings of being Envy-ous of Draconus's sword?

Pure guesswork, but i always figured Rake didn't trust anyone else to be carrying around the primal gate to Mommy D and the Andii Elder Warren.

FoD messes with this concept a lot, but at root Mommy D is/was Andii, Rake is Andii and Drac is something else altogether.

Andorion, on 28 August 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

There's a lot of foreshadowing in FoD about Rake acquiring a sword, but, given the power and nature of Dragnipur, as well as Rake's nature I like to think his acquiring of Dragnipur had more to do with keeping it out of the wrong hands. Plus, Dragnipur just lying around is a pretty big danger. Recall the scene in TtH where he puts down Dragnipur and the rock begins to bleed.

Agreed, and the real question is when/how/why Rake concludes that Drac is the wrong hands, and whether Envy had anything to do with that.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 28 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Of course things may change in the flip, but MoI suggested Envy played a part in it, including betraying Drac somehow.

Is that why she totally freaks out in OST when Draconus lets her know he is back in the game?

Yes. It's also raised in MoI in her chat with Krul, and at the end of TtH.

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

I dont see Drac in that way really. I think he was pretty measured in FOD. He couldve gone apeshit a few times and seemed to basically keep his cool. I mean it seems with someone of his power he couldve dominated whoever he wanted to in FOD and he seemed to chose not too. Rake on the other hand I think back then seems like someone who couldve raged. Malazan Era Rake not much but i think he sort of learned that restraint. Thats my perception at least. I wonder if Envy just strolled in and strolled out with Drag and just handed it to rake for safe keeping then drac comes looking for it.

By most references i can remember, by the time Rake and Drac throw down over Dragnipur, Draconus was a fairly horrible person in the 'Elder Gods like blood' sort of sense, but we can't necessarily accept anything we've read as true.

The Old Guard, on 22 August 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Rehvenge, on 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Didn't Rake said to her that her help was simply that she stayed out of it, and she admited it was true but still counted as a betrayal?

Well, if I remember correctly, that's the case. But if so then what of Spite? What was she doing at the time? From what we've seen now the three sisters were so tight as kids that even Death wasn't enough to part them

I believe that was stated, also in MoI to Krul but i could be wrong.

As for Spite, we don't know when her split with Envy happened but that's a full answer for why she wasn't there.
It's also possible she was but Drac didn't look to her for help.

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Already in FoD, Rake seems to have a desire for a unique sword. We know Grief doesn't end with him as it gets eventually in Andarist's hands (in HoC, iirc). Probably Rake's relationship with Envy brought up those feelings of being Envy-ous of Draconus's sword?

Pure guesswork, but i always figured Rake didn't trust anyone else to be carrying around the primal gate to Mommy D and the Andii Elder Warren.

FoD messes with this concept a lot, but at root Mommy D is/was Andii, Rake is Andii and Drac is something else altogether.

Andorion, on 28 August 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

There's a lot of foreshadowing in FoD about Rake acquiring a sword, but, given the power and nature of Dragnipur, as well as Rake's nature I like to think his acquiring of Dragnipur had more to do with keeping it out of the wrong hands. Plus, Dragnipur just lying around is a pretty big danger. Recall the scene in TtH where he puts down Dragnipur and the rock begins to bleed.

Agreed, and the real question is when/how/why Rake concludes that Drac is the wrong hands, and whether Envy had anything to do with that.

Off-the-top-of-my-head hypothesis: The civil war in Kharkanas turns really nasty, Thousands are killed, stuff is destroyed. Chaotic Eleint magic is unleashed, the Draconic Soletaken emerge, Draconus gets increasingly embittered/desperate as the Tiste are his people as in he among the Azathenai take care of them, manage their affairs. Mother Dark probably estranges herself from him too. He starts to lose it and wields Dragnipur randomly and regularly. Maybe he takes entire armies into Dragnipur, or people really close to Rake or both. Rake decides that such a force constitutes a threat to the Tiste on a fundamental level and hatches a plot with Envy to acquire it. After that, Draconus and Rake clash, Rake wins, etc etc.

Total guesswork,