[Saitama]

Andorion, on 21 August 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

I would say being inconspicuous is not really his priority here.

But why wouldn't it be? Especially if there's somebody else's life on the line you would think that he could put aside his need to be flashy.

[Andorion]

I don't think its his need to be flashy per se, but rather thats the way he thinks. Dresden can be a bit set in his ways. But he makes flashy work I could give you an example, but that would depend on how far you have read. Have you read past changes?

[Saitama]

I've read all the books, though quite a while ago so I don't remember that much. But it always irritated me how inflexible Harry was, especially since usually other people's lives depended on his actions.

[Andorion]

Second Sword, on 21 August 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

I've read all the books, though quite a while ago so I don't remember that much. But it always irritated me how inflexible Harry was, especially since usually other people's lives depended on his actions.

WARNING SPOILERS BELOW SPOILERS FOR DRESDEN FILES ESPECIALLY AFTER BOOK 5 SPOILERS

ok, its been some time since my last read as well,

Spoiler

but lets take Changes, where he has to save his daughter, about his existence he is onformed only at the beginning of the book. We all know he loves his daughter, and will do literally anything to save her. She is held prisoner by the Red King and the might of the entire Red Court. So he orchestrates a brilliant distraction with all the swords and then penetrates the ziggurat and gets to his daughter. His plan goes off the rails from here, mainly due to the almost unbeatable odds against him. But he is 80% succesful and the rest is improvisation. But no battle plan survives contact with the enemy and improvisation is always needed. What I see from Dresden, is his tendency to be self-sacrificial about himself. If i remember, the book where the Denarians kidnap the Archive, Dresden distracts while the others attempt the main rescue.

Another factor about why he isn't really stealthy is in my opinion because most of his opponents could probably see through his potions. A lot has been said about how cheap and easy these potions are, but if they were effective to an equivalent degree, then everybody would be using them.

Spoiler

Instead you see Molly casting her illusions which Dresden repeatedly tells us are really tough to do and he can't fo them very well. But then again thats a feature of the magic system. Not everybody can do everything equally well. The wardens are good at combat magic, the Merlin does defense really well, Molly is an illusionist, and Dresden is a powerhouse who is really good at offense but because of his unique lone-wolf conditon has to try and improvise a jack-of-all trades attitude to operate and survive.

[Saitama]

I'll give you that in the later novels Harry gets significantly smarter. And his willingness to sacrifice himself in order to get the job done, well, I can't blame him for that. But I do not like the fact that he doesn't change his tactics when other people's lives are on the line. It's one thing to sacrifice yourself, but what if it's not enough? I prefer the 'whatever gets the results' approach. But then again, I've done that character test from the other thread and apparently I'm 1. Marcone 2. Nicodemus, so it may be that me and Harry are just polar oposites in how we think ;-)

One example from the Blood Rites as accurate as I remember it: (SPOILER BLOOD RITES OF COURSE)

Spoiler

McCoy: Harry, are you sure you don't want me to help you rescue the children from the vamps? Im one of the most powerful wizards after all
Harry: No, I'm butthurt about you hiding something from me
McCoy: But Harry, the children...
Harry: F*** the children, their lives do not take precedent over my need to be a drama queen.

What the hell, Harry?

The potions... well, sometimes they would work, sometimes they wouldn't. But he doesn't try unless the plot demands it. The one that made him super fast/almost teleport could be useful for many situations. Instead, he gets caught all the time.

[Abyss]

Iirc, there are limits on what potions can do, they can break, not work, expire and iirc not work properly, i think Harry mentions that for the most part magic can do the same things faster and more reliably.
The escape potion he used in one of the early books took hours to make only a single potion with enough for two people to use once.

There's a bit more to it but i won't spoil books beyond what the OP has read.

As for that bit in RITES, Harry didn't trust McCoy to have his back or himself to have McCoy's back.

[Mcardle]

Yeah that McCoy spat was one of the things that jumped out at me as a contrivance to get rid of McCoy than how an actual human being would act. To me having a blackstaff makes perfect sense, hell I'd say they should more of them. I felt Butcher needed Mccoy out of the way so came up with a reason. Ha at those Cat Pics Abyss, that's exactly how my friends react at my dislike of Murphy. I don't get the love. She's annoying as hell...

[Saitama]

Abyss, on 21 August 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

Iirc, there are limits on what potions can do, they can break, not work, expire and iirc not work properly

So do parachutes. But when going skydiving, it's still nice to have a secondary one.

Quote

The escape potion he used in one of the early books took hours to make only a single potion with enough for two people to use once.

If I remember correctly, Harry states in the first book that making potions is his hobby, so he wouldn't have to go out of his way to make some and then store them in some kind of vials for the darkest hour.

Quote

As for that bit in RITES, Harry didn't trust McCoy to have his back or himself to have McCoy's back.

I find this a very selfish attitude considering what is at stake here. By not maximizing his chances of success, be it additional help or elixirs, he jeopardizes lives of others. It is foolish but heroic when he is the only one in danger. But when he fights against overwhelming forces and other people may die as a direct consequence of his actions that is plainly selfish.

[Abyss]

Mcardle, on 21 August 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

... Ha at those Cat Pics Abyss, that's exactly how my friends react at my dislike of Murphy. I don't get the love. She's annoying as hell...

...okaaayyyyyyyyyyy....

Second Sword, on 21 August 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

...If I remember correctly, Harry states in the first book that making potions is his hobby, so he wouldn't have to go out of his way to make some and then store them in some kind of vials for the darkest hour.

you recall correctly and i don't want to spoil later books so i'll leave it at then he had less time to spend on it and/or Butcher forgot that point

Quote

Quote

As for that bit in RITES, Harry didn't trust McCoy to have his back or himself to have McCoy's back.

I find this a very selfish attitude considering what is at stake here. By not maximizing his chances of success, be it additional help or elixirs, he jeopardizes lives of others. It is foolish but heroic when he is the only one in danger. But when he fights against overwhelming forces and other people may die as a direct consequence of his actions that is plainly selfish.

You prefer your heroes unemotional, infallible and unfailingly logical, best try a different series i suspect.

[HiddenOne]

I heard about a guy named Spock once that was just that kind of hero

[Saitama]

Abyss, on 21 August 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

you recall correctly and i don't want to spoil later books so i'll leave it at then he had less time to spend on it and/or Butcher forgot that point

I don't really remember what you're alluding to specifically, but it is true that in the last few books he is quite busy and the elixirs wouldn't make that much of a difference anyway, not with the oponnents he faces.
Still, the detective work from earlier novels would be easier. And he wouldn't get caught so much. I think that Butcher had a good idea with the elixirs, but made them too powerful and thus unusable.

Quote

You prefer your heroes unemotional, infallible and unfailingly logical, best try a different series i suspect.

If anything, Harry is the infallible one. For most of the series, hist 'strategy' is to charge and hope for the best. Which is what usually happens, with an occasional dramatic sacrifice now and then.
I would prefer somebody with an imagination, self-aware enough to accept that he is playing with things out of his league but smart enough to prepare for it.

What does Harry do when half of the supernatural world actively tries to kill him? He starts long distance running. Nice to see that when his life is at stake, he puts in as much effort to avoid getting killed as ordinary people to avoid getting fat ;-)

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 21 August 2014 - 09:10 PM

[Abyss]

HiddenOne, on 21 August 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

I heard about a guy named Spock once that was just that kind of hero

I remember that guy. His album was breathtaking.

Spoiler

[Saitama]

HiddenOne, on 21 August 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

I heard about a guy named Spock once that was just that kind of hero

Magic isn't a pit. Magic is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to heroic sacrifice, or love, or justice... illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

[Illuyankas]

Think of it from Murphy's perspective. You've got this tall bumbling almost-autistic-acting doofus (go read Aftermath before you commence yelling) rambling around crime scenes, who clearly knows more of what's going on than he's willing to tell you. You extend him some trust because his actions have saved lives and solved crimes but when it's murder on the line, he's literally hindering a police investigation which could - and did - lead to more deaths. And he clearly doesn't trust you enough to tell you what's happening, for whatever reason. We have more empathy towards Harry because we're in his head but he's definitely no angel (one more reference to staring at tits and I'm gonna be so mad).

The fact Murphy's capable of taking the existence of the magical world so well by Summer Knight is down to her character development from the start, same as how Harry is finally not a dumbass enough to tell her. Also what sick monster roots for someone who marries her sister's husband, what the hell


Finally, good luck with the promotion of a side character to main cast status! And how freaking creepy that gets!

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 21 August 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Mcardle, on 21 August 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

... Ha at those Cat Pics Abyss, that's exactly how my friends react at my dislike of Murphy. I don't get the love. She's annoying as hell...

...okaaayyyyyyyyyyy....

Second Sword, on 21 August 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

...If I remember correctly, Harry states in the first book that making potions is his hobby, so he wouldn't have to go out of his way to make some and then store them in some kind of vials for the darkest hour.

you recall correctly and i don't want to spoil later books so i'll leave it at then he had less time to spend on it and/or Butcher forgot that point

Quote

Quote

As for that bit in RITES, Harry didn't trust McCoy to have his back or himself to have McCoy's back.

I find this a very selfish attitude considering what is at stake here. By not maximizing his chances of success, be it additional help or elixirs, he jeopardizes lives of others. It is foolish but heroic when he is the only one in danger. But when he fights against overwhelming forces and other people may die as a direct consequence of his actions that is plainly selfish.

You prefer your heroes unemotional, infallible and unfailingly logical, best try a different series i suspect.

IIRC, not all of Dresden's potions went well. We only see those that work, but there are numerous asides from Bob about how others were complete disasters. So clearly potions are not foolproof. Agin one big constraint about potions is time. There is an argument that he could just whip up the stuff in advance, but how would he know what problems he would face? Again remember Dresden is broke. Its an endemic thing. Potion ingredients cost money. His first name may be Harry but he isn't Harry Potter with a vaultful of Gringotts gold to back him up.

[Andorion]

Second Sword, on 21 August 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 21 August 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

you recall correctly and i don't want to spoil later books so i'll leave it at then he had less time to spend on it and/or Butcher forgot that point

I don't really remember what you're alluding to specifically, but it is true that in the last few books he is quite busy and the elixirs wouldn't make that much of a difference anyway, not with the oponnents he faces.
Still, the detective work from earlier novels would be easier. And he wouldn't get caught so much. I think that Butcher had a good idea with the elixirs, but made them too powerful and thus unusable.

Quote

You prefer your heroes unemotional, infallible and unfailingly logical, best try a different series i suspect.

If anything, Harry is the infallible one. For most of the series, hist 'strategy' is to charge and hope for the best. Which is what usually happens, with an occasional dramatic sacrifice now and then.
I would prefer somebody with an imagination, self-aware enough to accept that he is playing with things out of his league but smart enough to prepare for it.

What does Harry do when half of the supernatural world actively tries to kill him? He starts long distance running. Nice to see that when his life is at stake, he puts in as much effort to avoid getting killed as ordinary people to avoid getting fat ;-)

About this thing about the calculating hero, I would ask you to consider the concept of balance. Harry has power. he is a bloody powerhouse who pours it around like there's no tomorrow. Now give him the calculating brain of somebody like Marcone. I argue that would make him infallible in reality.
Not everybody can do/be everything. Remember the hot iron/cold iron discussion in HoC? Dresden at least in the early books is hot iron. he ooperates at a spinal reflex level. Pretty girl? Gotta help her! Evil vampires? Burn them to ashes! Only later, only when he gets burned a couple of times does he start thinking things through.
Also consider the argument "If you can't win, change the game" Time and again Harry has found himself in situations requiring diplomatic skill, and delicacy, skills he simply does not have. So what does he do? He blunders through with brute force and trash talk, breaks all the rules and essentially generates shock, which puts his opponents off. This unconventionality works in his favour.

[Saitama]

The ingredients were dirt cheap as far as I remember(salt, sugar, coffee). The elixirs aren't foolprof, true, but nothing is. Guns jam, swords break, magic doesn't work like you hoped. That is an argument in favour of diversifyng your tactics. He has access to a number of elixirs, of which I remember only two: invisibility and some kind of speed power up/teleport. Even if those two were the only useful things he has, they are quite useful in a number of scenarios: infiltration, hostage rescue, surprise attack, getting out of a trap. Sure, some of his oponnents may see through invisibility but some of them won't. The general rule is: cover your ass.

As far as balance goes... yeah, that is probably exactly what Butcher meant. Except in his case, 'change the game' means usually 'use forzare as much as you can'. Generating shock is a sound strategy, but works only once. When he gets famous in the supernatural circles, it shouldn't work as well as it does.

I guess my main complaint is that because Harry has limited (for the most part) modus operandi relying on brute strength, he gets away unscathed from seemingly hopeless situations because he is the protagonist. Imagine an anti-terrorist squad that loudly announces their arrival and storms through the main entrance. They wouldn't be widly successful as far as rescuing hostages goes, would they? But Harry succeeds. When he gets surprised by the enemy (which happens often) he gets knocked out, but never killed. Then he uses some more forzare or his friends arrive at the last moment and bail him out of trouble. It is hard for me to connect with a hero like this because I know that he will be fine. There is no sense of danger. I now actually prefer when everything goes well for Harry because I can't stand the cliffhangers anymore. 90% of them end up the same: 'you thought it was bad? lol, nope'

Now, I'll be the first to admit that in the last few novels, Jim Butcher stepped up his game considerably. And even despite Harry being Harry, the first books are still great. So I don't want anybody to think that I hate them or something. I just wish he used his head more, so Butcher wouldn't have to bail him out of trouble with cheap tactics, so in turn I would actually care about the cliffhangers.

I also realize that my favourite type of hero (from the novels - Marcone) has no right being the protagonist because he is too competent and thus interesting only in small doses. Contrary to what Abyss suggested, I don't want an ultra-logical hero. What I want is a guy who takes responsibility for his life by improving himself and refusing to rely on luck. Not a tantrum throwing man-child.

Illuyankas, on 21 August 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

tall bumbling almost-autistic-acting doofus

That quote is just too perfect

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 22 August 2014 - 06:02 AM

[Mcardle]

@Illuyankas what can I say the Malazan series has left me emotionally... Crippled! Its a fair point that I'm being harsh as we only see things from Harrys side but she lost me when she tried to arrest Harry when the Lugaru(sp?) was going wild in the police station. Didn't really understand why Harry wanted her along for the Black Court suicide den attack with Kincaid, I would of looked to Michael myself... Though was Harry purposefully avoiding Michael due to his possession of the coin? The potions have some expensive ingredients don't they, diamond dust, gems and powdered uranium?

[Saitama]

Dresden files wiki lists ingredients for the 'escape potion' as: jolt cola, motor oil, pieces of feather, chocolate-covered espresso beans, a shadow, mouse scampers, a shredded bus ticket, and a broken chain link . So the 'get out of trouble' costs Harry something like 10$

[Silencer]

Wasn't it explicitly mentioned at some point that potions have a rather short use-by date?
I may be wrong, but I thought it was brought up specifically that he couldn't just make heaps ahead of time because they lose potency and quickly become useless...
Thus why he spends more time on the rings and blasting rod/staff and duster than potions. Never mind the investment of time required to make potions clashes with his time spent doing magical research,detective work,etc.

If there's one thing in the Dresden books which I thought was pretty well covered,it was the fact that potions were not the best solution to most problems due to the above issues plus the fact that their effects are somewhat unpredictable and that there can be really nasty aftereffects like falling unconscious randomly, throwing up a lot, internal bleeding, spontaneous combustion and/or radiation poisoning...didn't Dresden basically close his eyes and hope every time he downs a potion specifically because he doesn't know ahead of time if he got it right?