[Sergeant Grimm]

(My first post ever on this forum and it isn't about the books )

I think that the Syrian crisis is a juxtaposition of many layers of problems. First of all the problem faced today go back to the administration, after 1918, of the lost territories of the ottoman empire. Syria an Lebanon became French, while palestinia (more on israel afterwards) Jordania an Irak became English protectorates. Well most of those countries became independent but they were led by nationalist Arabs, inspired by Nasser's panarabism. If we remember this time , we cant omit to mention the cold war. A very clear shism became visible in the middle east, with the 'westerns' allys', saudi Arabia, turkey (they aren't Arabs i know) and Israel, and the 'socialist' ones with Syria jordania and egypt. A lot of tensions in the region are inherited from that time. Now a big part of the problem is the israelo-palestinian conflict. It shows the outright imperialist policy of the USA, who, it seems, would support the israeli's beyond even the most vile of human rights violations, somewhat paradoxal is the American support for the Saudis. We all know it's for their oil, that the west does support those wahabitic terrorists. Other big problem is Turkey. They may be allies of the west through their nato-membership, but their role has been very shady in the Syrian conflict, as they support IS to better cull their Kurdish opposition ()the bastards, Kurds are awesome). And finally, and i know this might seem offensive to some, but there is an inherent problem with the Islamic religion. The Sunnite/Shiite shism is in my opinion the first cause of this endless escalation in Syria, as it shows the 'cold-war' going on between Iran an the Saudis (Hood take those godless bastards) and because it is one of the principle goals/objectives of the IS-regime, to destroy the Shiites. Maliki oppressing the iraki Sunnites being a catalyst for the creation of IS. So I correct myself, the Middle-East is so messed up I don't get all of the perspectives and motivations of the various players, in this gruesome game. Probably the most complicated plot after MBOTF, and i haven't even talked about the US interventions, the history of djiadism (Muslim brotherhood and alqaida...) or the Russian intervention ....

[nacht]

ISIS as explained by Putin
https://youtu.be/OQuceU3x2Ww

[Tsundoku]

From what I understand the govt forces had previously taken back most of Ramadi and encircled a few hundred Daesh holdouts. Yesterday's news was about the holdouts being killed or captured and the whole city being Daesh-free.

[Tsundoku]

IS/Daesh loses Palmyra.

Good news, everybody (?)

http://www.news.com....5878c389995adf7

Or are they just talking themselves up? Which is probably necessary considering the amount of blood that is going to be shed going into Mosul. They're really going to have to keep morale high before and during that one.

But what of the Al-Assad regime? Do we end up with an uneasy brokered truce in Syria?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 28 March 2016 - 04:02 AM

[Tapper]

Briar King, on 28 March 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

I don't understand their need to destroy ancient ruins etc. that's minor compared to killing people but still that's history they are destroying.

Generally, IS targets pre-or non-Islamic sites - everything that came before the Prophet counts as false worship.

[amphibian]

Specifically, Muhammad was once cast out of the Mecca area for his preaching and converting. He'd done his prep work prior to that exile and went to a series of places already prepared for him. Eventually, he was able to put together a group of at least 10k and returned to Mecca as a force that could not be denied.

As a symbol of his strength, Muhammad went to the holiest shrine in pre-Islamic Saudi Arabia, which was located in Mecca, and destroyed the idols there. By destroying the idols, he'd made a symbol of how Islam would replace what came before.

The destruction of pre-Islamic symbols is meant to be a homage to this and a very clear showing of power and 'righteousness'.

This is much clearer to understand than the takfir stuff or how Wahabbism/Saudi money has made non-state groups enormously powerful within the conflicts over there.

I majored in Middle Eastern history in college, so please believe me when I say to not take Sgt Grimm's post up above as a valid summary of what's going on. It's really not.

[Tsundoku]

amphibian, on 29 March 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I majored in Middle Eastern history in college, so please believe me when I say to not take Sgt Grimm's post up above as a valid summary of what's going on. It's really not.

I don't think anyone could post a valid summary that ran to less than 100 pages.

[amphibian]

A big chunk of it has to do with how the Russians have fucked with the region since they started moving in on seaborne trade. Then the other imperial powers wanted their slice and dominance.

[Gorefest]

Tsundoku, on 31 March 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

amphibian, on 29 March 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I majored in Middle Eastern history in college, so please believe me when I say to not take Sgt Grimm's post up above as a valid summary of what's going on. It's really not.

I don't think anyone could post a valid summary that ran to less than 100 pages.

It's all about oil.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 31 March 2016 - 01:14 PM

[Andorion]

Gorefest, on 31 March 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 31 March 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

amphibian, on 29 March 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I majored in Middle Eastern history in college, so please believe me when I say to not take Sgt Grimm's post up above as a valid summary of what's going on. It's really not.

I don't think anyone could post a valid summary that ran to less than 100 pages.

It's all about oil.

Somewhat on topic, since oil was brought up, a couple of years back I read Daniel Yergin's The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power. Quite an eye opener.

This post has been edited by Andorion: 31 March 2016 - 01:29 PM

[amphibian]

Gorefest, on 31 March 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

It's all about oil.

For the Russians at least, it's about warm water ports and access outwards by sea. They have enough oil and natural gas to not need those of the Middle East.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 31 March 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 31 March 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

It's all about oil.

For the Russians at least, it's about warm water ports and access outwards by sea. They have enough oil and natural gas to not need those of the Middle East.

Well...Russia's oil prices are defined by the global oil economy (and partially by western sanctions). As such 2016 has seen oil prices in Russia and its associated economy plummet. It's not the same thing, but they aren't exactly uninterested in the middle east oil trade. In fact it means more to them than I think we'd like to assume. So while they aren't looking for oil from the middle east...they are affected by it too, just in a different way. The collapse of Mid East oil would be a huge boon to Russia in fact.

[Gorefest]

The lack of any ideological shake-up in Islam does not exactly help either.


It seems very fashionable in Western Europe today to flaunt our freedom of speech and opinions, and under that banner religious freedom is often championed as well. The religious motivation for recent atrocities is being downplayed and emphasis is put on lack of integration, social exclusion and discrimination, and other cultural and social factors. And the Muslim community as a whole is being pitied and called a victim, as they have to face even more discrimination and prejudice.

But when push comes to shove, of all the big world religions, Islam has had by far the least 'modernisation'. Judaism was bashed aside 1900 years ago and Christianity had to have a major rethink during the Enlightenment 200 years ago. Islam however still bases most of their fundamental concepts and world views on a 1,000 year old doctrine. And it is not being challenged at all, externally nor internally. Things like equal rights for women or minorities, punishments like stoning or beating people with sticks as an accepted institutional punishment, emphasis on the requirement to spread the religion (by force if necessary), and many more things, are simply not being confronted head on by anyone. I genuinely don't see how anything can be resolved without addressing that massive elephant in the room. And if it isn't, I fear it will be inevitable that things come to blows globally at some point.

[amphibian]

Gorefest, much of what you are talking about in the critique of Islam as a religion is centered on things found in the Saudi form of Wahabbism, which really only became a thing in the period between the 1920s to now. The House of Saud bought into it very heavily and exported it by underwriting mullahs and rabblerousers to get people sliding all over the ideological spectrum to eventually arrive at some form of Wahabbism.

So you're talking about a fairly recent phenomenon that's been integral to the Saudi government/power hierarchy and thus to the world.

I do not say that other segments/sects of Islam are pure as the driven snow, but this is at the very least, something comparable to the Southern Pentecostalism in the US that so often overlaps with white terrorists with the Catholics, the Greek Orthodox, the Lutherans etc outside of this as larger organizations.

Islam and Muslims are not monolithic.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 31 March 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Gorefest, much of what you are talking about in the critique of Islam as a religion is centered on things found in the Saudi form of Wahabbism, which really only became a thing in the period between the 1920s to now. The House of Saud bought into it very heavily and exported it by underwriting mullahs and rabblerousers to get people sliding all over the ideological spectrum to eventually arrive at some form of Wahabbism.

So you're talking about a fairly recent phenomenon that's been integral to the Saudi government/power hierarchy and thus to the world.

I do not say that other segments/sects of Islam are pure as the driven snow, but this is at the very least, something comparable to the Southern Pentecostalism in the US that so often overlaps with white terrorists with the Catholics, the Greek Orthodox, the Lutherans etc outside of this as larger organizations.

Islam and Muslims are not monolithic.

I take your point Amph, but given the power of the petrodollars, Wahabbi Islam is increasingly becoming the dominant discourse of Islam in many areas. This type of radicalisation can be pretty insidious and difficult to check. I really wish the media would find and run with some alternative Islamic discources. They exist. We both know that. But mere existence is no longer enough. They need exposure, appeal and I think this is crucial, the cool factor, which would bring in the 20 year old alienated 2nd gen Muslim immigrant in search of a coherent identity.

The problem with this type of discursive battle is that if the "moderate" or alternative discourse, seems, even for a moment to be sponsored by the Western state, many would never touch it. It has to come from the community, but for that to happen communities need protection against radical elements. I am thinking of that Scottish shopkeeper assaulted for wishing people Happy Easter.

[Tsundoku]

At least every week, something like this happens. And because of that vile orange Hutt and the furore he creates as an area of effect weapon, hardly anyone notices.

Apologies for crossing over with the American Politics thread, but I thought it was relevant. I do not apologise for the pics.

http://www.news.com....665ced0b56322bd

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This post has been edited by Captain Needa: 24 February 2017 - 11:44 AM

[EmperorMagus]

I was talking with my father, wondering about why Assad would use Sarin when he is already winning and everyone is distracted with things other than his murders. He had an interesting ... insight on the recent chemical attacks in Syria.

"The attacks were Putin murdering civilian in cold blood as retaliation for the St. Petersburg attack."

Now, I don't know if that is the case or not, but I find it very likely that this is the case. After all, Syria's chemical arsenal was supposedly disarmed a couple of years ago.

[Tsundoku]

EmperorMagus, on 05 April 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

I was talking with my father, wondering about why Assad would use Sarin when he is already winning and everyone is distracted with things other than his murders. He had an interesting ... insight on the recent chemical attacks in Syria.

"The attacks were Putin murdering civilian in cold blood as retaliation for the St. Petersburg attack."

Now, I don't know if that is the case or not, but I find it very likely that this is the case. After all, Syria's chemical arsenal was supposedly disarmed a couple of years ago.

I find that scarily plausible.

Does that say something about the incident, or something about me?

Sick and tired of innocents being killed over what are essentially vast, obscene pissing contests.

[Mezla PigDog]

It's hitting the headlines in the UK at the moment that one of the teenage girls who left the UK to become an ISIS bride in Syria wants to come home. Her and 2 school friends left the UK when they were 15. Now she's 19, one of her friends is dead, 2 of her kids are dead, she just gave birth to kid number 3. She left ISIS territory to get to a refugee camp shortly before the baby was due because she had enough of her children dying. There is a big debate in the UK over whether she should be allowed home. It's knocking Brexit down the news agenda so I'm a fan of her already.

I just watched the video in this article - Guardian article

The kid really needs some PR training or to be told not to speak to reporters:

(I'm paraphrasing)
Journalist - "Do you regret what you did?"
"No"
Journalist - "What do you say to your family who are worried about you?"
"Get me home, I can't stay here, the camp is awful".
Journalist - "Not that you are sorry?"
"Oh yes, sorry!" (not very convincingly).

Before this video I was falling on the side of the fact that she was a kid when she went. She's pretty much still a kid, she should be allowed home obviously with some professionals involved for quite some time and possibly an electronic tag for as long as it's legal. Not that she would be safe out and about in the UK. After this video, oh my god. She will be hung out to dry by this video but she's as good as just given birth. At this point after having my son I was so exhausted I was hallucinating that he was a tomato plant that I wasn't allowed to drop on the floor (seriously). She's obviously uncomfortable and exhausted. She's also obviously not the brightest spark but she has been living with a terrorist group for the last 4 years so I'm guessing her education took a downward turn.

What do people think about letting these women and their children back? Trump has also said the EU has to take back their captured ISIS fighters.

And then regardless of what you really think what do you think will actually happen? They are going to be in limbo for years. Politicians are going to hope we just forget about them.

[Aptorian]

We have the same kinds of debates here in Denmark regarding both pro-IS fighters and the ones who travelled down there to fight IS.

I'm very conflicted about it. On the one hand I am a strong believer in rehabilitation and second chances but on the other hand, I think that citizenship and nationality are not just coats you can put on and take off again when it benefits you.

You want to join the dark side? Maybe it's best to say good riddance because this person is not likely to be a healthy, productive member of society when they return. Quite the opposite.

In the case of the lady you mention, there's no indication that this person has changed or learned anything. They want to come back to Europe because it's nice and safe but they don't want to adopt the countries values and norms which I find unacceptable.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 17 February 2019 - 06:49 PM