[QuickTidal]

So it appears a fair number of us are now reading / have read either BLOOD SONG and TOWER LORD..and I figured instead of clogging up the "Reading" thread with comments we can make them here, and chat about this stellar series.

Since not everyone has read the books and may be at varying stages of doing so, let's keep spoilers within tags, and try to mention above the tag what point in the series you are talking about so others know what to click and what not.

For my first comment I'll note that I just reached Part III of TOWER LORD, around page 300-310.

Spoiler

HOLY SHIT. The sequence where Frentis and the Volarian woman are in the throne room with the King and Lyrna...I mean once Vaelin saw his vision of fire and Lyrna I knew I had to watch out for something, and to be honest I initially suspected something might have occurred when she went to Bander's estate (though after she went I realized I needn't have worried)...but the sentence where Frentis snaps Malcius' neck...it comes REALLY abruptly and I was not expecting it so I sat reading it on the bus with my mouth agape (ppl must have thought me weird) and then the rest of that chapter happens at such an insane pace....and the only thing I can think now is "How does Frentis PROVE he was under compulsion from some dark entity?" I mean I'm sure Vaelin would know, but what happens when he runs back into/finds Lyrna...Davoka is going to F-R-E-A-K out. While not exactly a twist, I knew the knife that the Mahlessa poisoned would come into play, I had no idea it would come into play so soon, and my brain TOTALLY didn't connect the fact that it was pain that freed Frentis up enough to save the Hope's widow and her son...with the Mahlessa's comment that the knife would "cause unimaginable pain, but not death" when the time came...it makes sense in hindsight, but I didn't guess at it before it happened.

Anyways. Holy hell this book is amazing. Only halfway through but I'm already sad to be on the other side of mid-way as I'll be finished soon and have to wait for book 3.

Probably the book of the year so far...

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 04 July 2014 - 12:39 PM

[Cause]

Halfway through Part 2

Spoiler

I find it odd that there has never been any mention before of this massive Volarian Empire which is just a stones throw away from the Realm and the Alpirans and who are sorcerous powerhouses.

Al Sorna so far has been a bit to Zen. Its like he no longer has a personality, just a passive acceptance to face anything that comes his way.

Does anyone know what Obi is talking about when he says the realm has muslim influeces?

[EmperorMagus]

Cause, on 04 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Halfway through Part 2

Spoiler

I find it odd that there has never been any mention before of this massive Volarian Empire which is just a stones throw away from the Realm and the Alpirans and who are sorcerous powerhouses.

Al Sorna so far has been a bit to Zen. Its like he no longer has a personality, just a passive acceptance to face anything that comes his way.

Does anyone know what Obi is talking about when he says the realm has muslim influeces?

Finished the book, but don't really believe have spoilered anything below.

Spoiler

I actually think of the realm as Britain, with the Alpirans replacing the Roman empire and Volarians Byzantine empire. The religious schism inside the realm reminds me of reformation. I understand that a lot of things don't match but that's just me...
I really think Ryan does the single character plot line far better than this one, some characters are just plain boring (Reva) while other interesting characters just don't do anything interesting(Vaelin the whole book/ Frentis until he gets free).
My favorite part of the book was Vernier's accounts.

This post has been edited by EmperorMagus: 04 July 2014 - 01:52 PM

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 04 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Halfway through Part 2

Spoiler

I find it odd that there has never been any mention before of this massive Volarian Empire which is just a stones throw away from the Realm and the Alpirans and who are sorcerous powerhouses.

Hmmm, I'd have to re-read to be sure there was no mention of them in BLOOD SONG...but otherwise I'm impressed that book 1 makes you worry about the Alpiran's to the point where you assume to know where the rest of the tale is going, only to have that rug pulled out from under you and the author say "Oh, no the Alpiran's are puppy dogs compared to the Volarians."

Al Sorna so far has been a bit to Zen. Its like he no longer has a personality, just a passive acceptance to face anything that comes his way.

I actually like him dialed back, simply because I know he's trying to keep himself in check because of how his life has gone and what it has done and can do to those around him. I do like how he is very calculated in his actions now, but still has moments of worry. I think Reva is currently his sword-arm, if that makes sense?

Does anyone know what Obi is talking about when he says the realm has muslim influeces?

Other than the fact that the surnames in the Realm have "al" in them, I don't see that at all. The Faith is a far cry from Islam as a religion. We'd have to ask Mr. Ryan to be sure, but I can't see Islam in anything in these books so far...in fact MOST of the religions in the books seem to be invented without aping real religions (except the World Father religion which seems to be a Christian allegory in most ways)...I mean the Faith is based on avatars with order houses, and beholden to their own departed ancestors instead of a deity (There is more later on in Book 2 about a person named Kerlis The Faithless which expounds on the whole Departed thing and why it can be important)...and I can't think of a religion in our world that is very similar. The religions of the Northern reaches, Lonak included all seem to be earth/settlement nature based (AKA The Mouth of Nishak ect.) which reflect some of the smaller ancient tribal religions from before the major religions took hold (or in more remote locations).

Answered/commented in red.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 04 July 2014 - 01:24 PM

[Cause]

Spoiler

I get the sense even from just book 1 and more so now that the author has a strong anti-religion or perhaps rather specifically an anti-god agenda. Found this right now -https://anthonystuff.wordpress.com/tag/atheism/

The Volarians are mentioned once, they cause the death of the merchant prince who had the blood singer than trained al sorna. Given the way they were spoken of I felt like they were this incredibly distant people. Instead we now learn its a massive empire that borders the Alpirians and neighbours the realm, they have a gigantic army and magic. Its not a deal breaker, not even a big deal but I feel that in trying to keep them under wraps for book 2 the author was somewhat disingenuous in how they were kept under wraps in book 1.

This post has been edited by Cause: 04 July 2014 - 02:03 PM

[QuickTidal]

Spoiler

Oh indeed. I think it's clear that Ryan is an atheist, especially in Vaelin being indoctrinated into the Faith and then to have him shun it once he sees the world how it is. What I like about HOW he's gone about it though, is that he leaves the human quotient in while disparaging the embedded dogma. So while The Order (the Sixth Order in particular and moreso the 7th and the 4th) has stodgy dogma attached to it, the same indoctrination and training not only gave Vaelin some of his best friends, but crafted him and others into the people they are today. So without the religion and the doctrine he'd never know Nortah, or Sherin, or Caenis. The 3rd Order (that's the healers right?) I think he gives even more special treatment in that he portrays them more like Hospitallers than anything, realizing the good they do outweighs a lot of the rhetoric. And I think that's the point of The World Father religion as well (being on the more corrupted end of the religion scale), the blurb that opens Book III talks about the "Reader" who we saw in Alltor and how he's basically the Pope, but that no one ever knows "why" and he just all of the sudden appears and claims dominion. But yeah, Ryan's voice is clear about his feelings...I'm just glad he's got the forethought to explore the various religions like a theologian and historian, and not just someone who might dislike organized religion. He's a deconstructor. At least that's how I see it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 04 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

[champ]

Just picked up Tower Lord today and rearranged all plans until it is finished so avoiding all spoilers! Absolutely loved the first book!

[QuickTidal]

Finished up TOWER LORD. Loved it!

However, I have a question for those who finished:

Spoiler

What was the last scene with Weaver and Lyrna about? He saves her with the rope he'd been making for so long...only to hug her tightly..."Hurt"...and that last sentence: "And she burned"...am I dumb? I don't get that at all...

[Cause]

Spoiler

I believe he is just healing her scars (A bit odd when surrounded by a thousand wounded, but it must be significant long term Im guessing) but every gift has its price and the healing is painful. I can't remember if when Vaelin is healed in book 1 if he describes any pain but I feel certain that's what is going on

I enjoyed the book but am let down by the ending, which I think is not so much a book ending as the intermission before book 3 picks up right where we left off. It lacked climax and a conclusion to many of the plots. Frentis and Solis, the traitorous Fief lord, the volarian reinforcements which will arrive soon, the gifted in Vaelins army did very little, the lonak I presume will attack Varinshold with frentis but otherwise the peace deal has letd to little so far etc etc

I also disliked how he gathers this army and then when hopefully outnumbered his battle plan was to charge the enemy alone, especially given that even though his army is succesfull he himself faints before even reaching his objective. Struck me as ridiculous. I also think the author underestimates how powerful an army of mind/drug controlled slaves would be who never retreat, surrender or panic. An Army that never routes will inflict almost as many casualties on the enemy as they do to it in the final slaughter. Still that's a minor personal gripe compared to the former which I think crosses into the line of lazy writing.

One more complaint is how the Queen receives the Shields loyalty because he becomes taken with her on first sight even though she is disfigured? I actually had to go back and re-read the scene because I was sure I must have missed something

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 07 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Spoiler

One more complaint is how the Queen receives the Shields loyalty because he becomes taken with her on first sight even though she is disfigured? I actually had to go back and re-read the scene because I was sure I must have missed something

Spoiler

Actually, I think the deal is that the Shield had seen Lyrna before, probably when the one Ship Lord went to Varinshold. So he knew she had been beautiful. And as to the climax, I felt that was Reva's defense of Alltor, considering it dealt with the initially repulsed attacks, through the engines that created the breaches, and including the hail mary attempt to get rid of all the engines, culminating in the house to house defense she and the commander employed. That was about as great a climax as I could have dreamt up.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 07 July 2014 - 12:26 PM

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 07 July 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Cause, on 07 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Spoiler

One more complaint is how the Queen receives the Shields loyalty because he becomes taken with her on first sight even though she is disfigured? I actually had to go back and re-read the scene because I was sure I must have missed something

Spoiler

Actually, I think the deal is that the Shield had seen Lyrna before, probably when the one Ship Lord went to Varinshold. So he knew she had been beautiful. And as to the climax, I felt that was Reva's defense of Alltor, considering it dealt with the initially repulsed attacks, through the engines that created the breaches, and including the hail mary attempt to get rid of all the engines, culminating in the house to house defense she and the commander employed. That was about as great a climax as I could have dreamt up.

Spoiler

Even if he has seen her before she is still ugly now. I can believe a man can love based on more than appearance but not on first sight or on second sight from a massive distance. The scene felt off. Maybe a POV from him later can clear it up. who knows.

I feel Reva's defence had much of the impact stolen by the fact that verniers accounts from the enemy side were set so far in the future. we knew what her stratagems would be before she did. We knew she would fail to take out the siege ships, or if she did the Volarians must have more because they were still around in the future. We knew she planned house-to-house fighting. The only thing we never saw was just how one women created such fear in the Volarian ranks. Further even if such fear exist we were repeatedly told half the Volarian army is immune to fear.

The climax was Vaelins arrival to relieve the siege which was now in its final day, defeat was inevitable. Yet his stratagem as I have said was CHARGE! yet terribly it was for himself only. Instead of him singing to be a super swordsmen I think we could have been treated to him singing to become super general. Knowing exactly where to send every regiment and charge and arrow storm for maximum effect. His one man army routine was in my opinion as I have said ridiculous and incredibly selfish. He brought an entire army across the continent only to tell them five minutes before engaging the enemy, 'well that's it then, I'm off. Good luck to you'. Worse, somehow this strategy works and despite his army changing the enemy without a co-ordinated stratagem they roll over the much better prepared and far larger Volarian force.

I was riveted till the end and Ill be getting book 3 but the ending of 2 I feel leaves much to be desired. I'm also still sticking to my statement that its more of a brief interlude then a finish untill Book 3 picks up.

[champ]

Really enjoyed the book but I did prefer Blood Song.

Vaelin only POV in the 1st book was one of the main reasons why I loved it so much, loved the character and going into this one I just wanted to read more of his story rather than the 4 people POV going on but fair play, I wasn't really bored by any of the new POVs though it did take a while for Reva and Lyrna to grow on me.

Agree with the above...

Spoiler

The last scene was just Lyrna getting healed

Didn't like...

Spoiler

Vaelin losing the blood song again - I want to read the first book again as I know there is a scene with the Witches Bastard talking to Vaelin saying at some point he will be close to death and he'll get him yadda yadda, will probably put that scene in context more after a reread.

But overall, another stand out book by the author! Next time though... more Vaelin and less travelling!

edit...

Cause, on 07 July 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Spoiler

The climax was Vaelins arrival to relieve the siege which was now in its final day, defeat was inevitable. Yet his stratagem as I have said was CHARGE! yet terribly it was for himself only. Instead of him singing to be a super swordsmen I think we could have been treated to him singing to become super general. Knowing exactly where to send every regiment and charge and arrow storm for maximum effect. His one man army routine was in my opinion as I have said ridiculous and incredibly selfish. He brought an entire army across the continent only to tell them five minutes before engaging the enemy, 'well that's it then, I'm off. Good luck to you'. Worse, somehow this strategy works and despite his army changing the enemy without a co-ordinated stratagem they roll over the much better prepared and far larger Volarian force.

I was riveted till the end and Ill be getting book 3 but the ending of 2 I feel leaves much to be desired. I'm also still sticking to my statement that its more of a brief interlude then a finish untill Book 3 picks up.

Spoiler

Thought the exact same with all of the above, especially the underlined comment...

Didn't seem in character for Vaelin to just go one-man-army considering everything that was resting on the battle no matter how much of a rush he was in to get to Reva.

This post has been edited by champ: 07 July 2014 - 01:20 PM

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 07 July 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Spoiler

The climax was Vaelins arrival to relieve the siege which was now in its final day, defeat was inevitable. Yet his stratagem as I have said was CHARGE! yet terribly it was for himself only. Instead of him singing to be a super swordsmen I think we could have been treated to him singing to become super general. Knowing exactly where to send every regiment and charge and arrow storm for maximum effect. His one man army routine was in my opinion as I have said ridiculous and incredibly selfish. He brought an entire army across the continent only to tell them five minutes before engaging the enemy, 'well that's it then, I'm off. Good luck to you'. Worse, somehow this strategy works and despite his army changing the enemy without a co-ordinated stratagem they roll over the much better prepared and far larger Volarian force.

I was riveted till the end and Ill be getting book 3 but the ending of 2 I feel leaves much to be desired. I'm also still sticking to my statement that its more of a brief interlude then a finish untill Book 3 picks up.

Spoiler

I don't think that Vaelin's idea was a singular charge. He basically got there, and they realized that even with their numbers things might/could get very messy and hairy...so he does that speech "You don't have to follow me, but I'm going in there." He knows that they will still follow him. Caenis and the Realm Guard, Nortah and his group, and especially the Seordah who have basically knelt before him and swore they would follow him to the end because they want to punish the Volarians. It came across to me that he knew they would follow, but that he wanted to give those that might waver and not wish to die a chance to walk. Otherwise they follow him full force (as evidenced by Vernier's watching from the command ship as the entire force of Vaelin's army crosses the Isthmus to Alltor behind him. We just get it from his POV at the vanguard as the blood song takes him. I saw it as more of the Blood Song guiding him at that point. And I think the reason they roll over the Volarians is due to Vaelin's song. There's that whole section where he speaks about how the Kuritai come at him in groups but they "moved as if through clay"...so he basically IS a one-man army taking out multiple people all around him as they move through molasses. I think one of the Volarians even looks at him and he's basically a blur that no one can see, a blade slicing up enemies in microseconds.

Re: book 2 is a brief interlude/lead up to book 3....of course it is. I'll never understand that complaint though. This is a trilogy and as the middle part of the story all I expected was a big battle sequence (I got that), otherwise the big climax of the story comes later in the 3rd book as is planned. I'm not sure what you were expecting here?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 07 July 2014 - 01:58 PM

[Chance]

For those thinking about the suicide charge strategy, I took it as one of those moment in history where a smaller, better motivated, more united and most of all facing a very worn out foe used to fighting smaller weaker enemies and they simply overcame the odds. Also Vaelin felt more like a smybol for the army then its acutal commander.

All in all the end could very well have been a chapter longer per point of view but it was really good.

This post has been edited by Chance: 07 July 2014 - 08:55 PM

[Cause]

Spoiler

He literally left in the middle of a command meeting and charged the enemy. His army had not properly formed up, the officers were out of position. If it was meant to come off as heroic, Ryan did a poor job of writing it that way.

Whether the army followed him or not, it should have been an uncoordinated mess. At the very least he could have said Caeniss your in charge I have to go.

[Chance]

Cause, on 08 July 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Spoiler

He literally left in the middle of a command meeting and charged the enemy. His army had not properly formed up, the officers were out of position. If it was meant to come off as heroic, Ryan did a poor job of writing it that way.

Whether the army followed him or not, it should have been an uncoordinated mess. At the very least he could have said Caeniss your in charge I have to go.

Spoiler

Kind of agree, it should have been written in a more detailed way possibly but it was pretty clear that he had left command of every unit to someone else and who he could trusted with command and that those people where very competent. Possibly more competent then he was since his experience with the troops was months while most other commanders had spend years with their units. Utterly incompentent Volarian high command can't have hurt either.

This post has been edited by Chance: 08 July 2014 - 12:45 PM

[QuickTidal]

Chance, on 08 July 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Cause, on 08 July 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Spoiler

He literally left in the middle of a command meeting and charged the enemy. His army had not properly formed up, the officers were out of position. If it was meant to come off as heroic, Ryan did a poor job of writing it that way.

Whether the army followed him or not, it should have been an uncoordinated mess. At the very least he could have said Caeniss your in charge I have to go.

Spoiler

Kind of agree, it should have been written in a more detailed way possibly but it was pretty clear that he had left command of every unit to someone else and who he could trusted with command and that those people where very competent. Possibly more competent then he was since his experience with the troops was months while most other commanders had spend years with their units. Utterly incompentent Volarian high command can't have hurt either.

Spoiler

^^This. It's very clear that Caenis, Nortah, the Seordah leader (name escapes me just now) ect. are all basically leaders of their sections of the soldiery. Vaelin never really is in command other than a figurehead to push them onwards.

[champ]

Started a reread of Blood Song last night...

Spoiler

Iltris or however you spell his name, Lyrnas protector - I certainly didn't remember that he was the bare knuckle instructor for the order - really wish I had done a reread before Tower Lord for these little things

[Cause]

champ, on 08 July 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Started a reread of Blood Song last night...

Spoiler

Iltris or however you spell his name, Lyrnas protector - I certainly didn't remember that he was the bare knuckle instructor for the order - really wish I had done a reread before Tower Lord for these little things

Spoiler

I think your confusing two separate people. Iltris is fourth order, he is sent by Tendris to deliver Sister sherin in chains to stop the plague. Vaelin beats on him. The sixth order martial arts instructor is I'm sure supposed to be someone else. Iltris then tried to crossbow Vaelin outside his sisters house and so was sent to the blackhold by Tendris and that's how he ends up with the queen.


That said another very minor gripe I have is the editing of the books is sometimes quite terrible. The orders are often switched around haphazardly. The fifth order is for healing and yet its members are often listed as belonging to other orders and vice versa. In blood song after the Aspect massacre I recall its quite noticeable. The order houses team Vaelin went to and which aspects died etc etc are all jumbled repeatedly.

[Cause]

can we stop writing everything in spoilers? This is becoming silly