[D'rek]

Raging Cajun Gator King, on 03 February 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

Abyss maybe right with Miller and that is just strange and Alt Uni to me but we ll see if they go through with it early next season because they did cut

Spoiler

Julie/Miller sending Eros to Venus. I don't remember Miller setting foot on Roci. I think once he got to Eros he never left

In the book:

Spoiler

They're all on Eros, they find Julie's remains, then the emergency alert and vomit zombie break-out happens. All 5 of them get on the Roci and leave back to Tycho. Then they attack the secret Protogen facility (with the 4 on the Roci, and Miller on the OPA troop transport). Then back to Tycho. Then from there back to Eros (again Miller on the transports) and from there Miller does not leave Eros.

[Binder of Demons]

Just binge watched all 10 eps over the last 2 days. Very impressed with what they did. Still haven't read the books, despite having them in my to read pile for ages.

The fact that there is a framework there in the novels for them to work off of makes me more hopeful for the series going forward, so I hope that this gets picked up for a few more seasons. Considering where they finished up, it'll be cool to see what direction they take all the main characters in.

I think this is at least as impressive as Battelstar Galactica, and as long as it avoids the dodgy changes of direction and somewhat muddled ending, this could end up surpassing it (that's where having the books should help).

[Baco Xtath]

I keep hearing people talk about Battlestar Galactica; is it good? I've only watched a few with settings in space, namely, Firefly and the rest are anime: Cowboy Bebop, Gundam Wing, and stuff like that. So, I should watch it?

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Make sure it's the BSG reboot, not the original (though I've heard the original is decent).

[Binder of Demons]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 05 February 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

Make sure it's the BSG reboot, not the original (though I've heard the original is decent).

The original series of BSG is an almighty cheese fest at times. But when they did dramatic episodes and storylines, it could be fantastic. Still the overall quality is patchy.

You could just take that as a sign of the times though, because BUCK ROGERS was the other big sci-fi show of that time, and it too had a difficult times escaping the clutches of the monster that was Disco.


The other modern space show that is worth a watch, is STARGATE:UNIVERSE. I know it flopped as it was far too grim in tone compared to the other STARGATE franchises, but that might also make it easier for non-Stargate fans to pick it up.

And of course, no modern list of space based sci-fi shows would be complete without BABYLON 5. Again, it suffers from some terribly hammy acting at times, and some awful standalone episodes, as well as some cheap looking CGI by todays standards. But it was groundbreaking for it's time by telling a long story spanning 4 seasons (and then a 5th season added on). Well worth a look.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Also, Farscape!

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 05 February 2016 - 01:47 AM

[Primateus]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 05 February 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

Also, Farscape!

Indeed! Thou shalt watch Farscape before thou watches anything else!

Farscape is simply all kinds of awesome, crazy and outright nuts! But it works and it works gloriously.

I just finished The Expanse today, and damn, I liked it a lot.

Next season can't come fast enough.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Briar King, on 05 February 2016 - 01:52 AM, said:

Does anyone know yet if the bks are going past 6? I'm not looking it up for fear of running into bk 5 spoilers.

Wikipedia lists nine books! Three are 'unknown' with release dates in 2017 and beyond though.

[stone monkey]

Finally seen all of this. There were things I liked and there were things I hated. There will probably be spoilers:

There was too much filler. The books are essentially plot, plot and more plot... with some characters squeezed in; and the plot just races along. Mid-season this just seemed to drag. Had we not wasted so much time on inconsequentialities I suspect we could have had all of the first book's plot rather than approximately half of it. There was also a lot of handholding, especially in the Julie flashback in the penultimate episode - which practically draws pictures in crayon for the hard of thinking.

A lot of the new additions were pretty terrible too. I'm reminded of a review I read once about something else, which is entirely apropos for the series: "What was original was not good and what was good was not original." What exactly was the point of the spy (other to have that very nicely done speech from Amos on "The Churn" to be directed towards him)?

Some of the Avarasala inserts were passable. And I think it was probably a good idea overall to have her as a viewpoint character showing the situation on earth (although the detour to Holden's family was a complete wast of time).

The casting was okay, although Holden still looks too young imo. Alex, and especially Amos, grew on me, as did Avarasala. Naomi, whilst being very different from Book Naomi, worked well enough. Miller was a surprise, Thomas Jane actually did a good job with him. Jared Harris, as Anderson Dawes, pretty much blew everyone else off the screen every time he appeared.

I did like the overall design, despite some sets looking a bit cheap and some of the spaceships having far too many things sticking out at odd angles for craft capable of high-G thrust.

The dialogue was a bit clunky in places, and it took a while for it to find the characters' voices, imo the writers' room should have had another pass at the earlier episodes, but I guess it takes a while the get a handle on these things.

Overall it was watchable in places... and interminable in others.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 08 February 2016 - 09:00 PM

[QuickTidal]

I'd like to go on record as saying that Chad L. Coleman as Fred Johnson is ENTIRELY miscast. Moreso for me than the miscasting of Holden. Coleman is a fantastic actor in the right roles...but Fred is supposed to be an older guy, with more of a weary state to his character. I'd have bought Morgan Freeman, or Delroy Lindo, or Bill Cobbs in the role. Coleman as Fred feels too young to be the Butcher of Anderson Station. I mean the guy was a Colonel in the UN Marine Corps BEFORE he became the war-weary leader of the OPA...this is not a guy in his early 40's...this is a guy who should easily be early 60's. Completely miscast.

[Gnaw]

QuickTidal, on 08 February 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I'd like to go on record as saying that Chad L. Coleman as Fred Johnson is ENTIRELY miscast. Moreso for me than the miscasting of Holden. Coleman is a fantastic actor in the right roles...but Fred is supposed to be an older guy, with more of a weary state to his character. I'd have bought Morgan Freeman, or Delroy Lindo, or Bill Cobbs in the role. Coleman as Fred feels too young to be the Butcher of Anderson Station. I mean the guy was a Colonel in the UN Marine Corps BEFORE he became the war-weary leader of the OPA...this is not a guy in his early 40's...this is a guy who should easily be early 60's. Completely miscast.

Eager Beaver?

[Primateus]

I'm a little confused here...

Just so we're clear, the season ends with

Spoiler

Holden and Miller getting that radiation dose

right?

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 08 February 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I'd like to go on record as saying that Chad L. Coleman as Fred Johnson is ENTIRELY miscast. Moreso for me than the miscasting of Holden. Coleman is a fantastic actor in the right roles...but Fred is supposed to be an older guy, with more of a weary state to his character. I'd have bought Morgan Freeman, or Delroy Lindo, or Bill Cobbs in the role. Coleman as Fred feels too young to be the Butcher of Anderson Station. I mean the guy was a Colonel in the UN Marine Corps BEFORE he became the war-weary leader of the OPA...this is not a guy in his early 40's...this is a guy who should easily be early 60's. Completely miscast.

I have two cousins who are colonels. Both of them were stressed about making the cut from major, as there's only so many slots available to move up in a peacetime military. Both made it. One is late forties, the other is mid forties.

The age range is right for Fred Johnson in a war time footing (promotions a bit faster than normal).

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Primateus, on 02 March 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm a little confused here...

Just so we're clear, the season ends with

Spoiler

Holden and Miller getting that radiation dose

right?

No, it ends with

Spoiler

everyone getting to the Roci and it blasting off.

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 02 March 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 February 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I'd like to go on record as saying that Chad L. Coleman as Fred Johnson is ENTIRELY miscast. Moreso for me than the miscasting of Holden. Coleman is a fantastic actor in the right roles...but Fred is supposed to be an older guy, with more of a weary state to his character. I'd have bought Morgan Freeman, or Delroy Lindo, or Bill Cobbs in the role. Coleman as Fred feels too young to be the Butcher of Anderson Station. I mean the guy was a Colonel in the UN Marine Corps BEFORE he became the war-weary leader of the OPA...this is not a guy in his early 40's...this is a guy who should easily be early 60's. Completely miscast.

I have two cousins who are colonels. Both of them were stressed about making the cut from major, as there's only so many slots available to move up in a peacetime military. Both made it. One is late forties, the other is mid forties.

The age range is right for Fred Johnson in a war time footing (promotions a bit faster than normal).

Anderson Station happened over a decade before the start of the first book, though. So Johnson being early forties "now" means he was late twenties/early thirties when he made Colonel.

In any case, it's not about actual physical age. It's about demeanour. I don't think Coleman pulls off the gravitas or sense of leadership that the role requires.

[amphibian]

D, on 02 March 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

Anderson Station happened over a decade before the start of the first book, though. So Johnson being early forties "now" means he was late twenties/early thirties when he made Colonel.

In any case, it's not about actual physical age. It's about demeanour. I don't think Coleman pulls off the gravitas or sense of leadership that the role requires.

The Butcher went from Captain to Colonel in a wartime situation. There was no Major.

[Abyss]

stone monkey, on 08 February 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

..... There was also a lot of handholding, especially in the Julie flashback in the penultimate episode - which practically draws pictures in crayon for the hard of thinking.

While true, i cant fault this when you factor in that there are likely far more people watching the show who never read the books. It`s a necessary evil.

Quote

Some of the Avarasala inserts were passable. And I think it was probably a good idea overall to have her as a viewpoint character showing the situation on earth (although the detour to Holden's family was a complete wast of time).

She also helped by being a lead character who wasn`t a white guy, as well as pumping up the political aspects that were pulled from bk2 more or less and helped explain the Earth Mars Belt relationship.

Quote

The casting was okay, although Holden still looks too young imo. ...

So many people are not loving Holden and i don`t understand why. The character in the book is practically a cypher, all we knew in WAKES is that he's good looking and fiercely loyal to his crew (eventually).

Quote

I did like the overall design, despite some sets looking a bit cheap and some of the spaceships having far too many things sticking out at odd angles for craft capable of high-G thrust.

I'm not a scientist (at least, not in any legal way), but believe that aerodynamics have no relevance in vacuum.

amphibian, on 02 March 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 February 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I'd like to go on record as saying that Chad L. Coleman as Fred Johnson is ENTIRELY miscast. Moreso for me than the miscasting of Holden. Coleman is a fantastic actor in the right roles...but Fred is supposed to be an older guy, with more of a weary state to his character. I'd have bought Morgan Freeman, or Delroy Lindo, or Bill Cobbs in the role. Coleman as Fred feels too young to be the Butcher of Anderson Station. I mean the guy was a Colonel in the UN Marine Corps BEFORE he became the war-weary leader of the OPA...this is not a guy in his early 40's...this is a guy who should easily be early 60's. Completely miscast.

I have two cousins who are colonels. Both of them were stressed about making the cut from major, as there's only so many slots available to move up in a peacetime military. Both made it. One is late forties, the other is mid forties.

The age range is right for Fred Johnson in a war time footing (promotions a bit faster than normal).

Wonder if later books are coloring your view QT... he`s described as feeling his age by GAMES, but its not a thing in WAKES

amphibian, on 02 March 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

The Butcher went from Captain to Colonel in a wartime situation. There was no Major.

That too.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 02 March 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

Quote

The casting was okay, although Holden still looks too young imo. ...

So many people are not loving Holden and i don`t understand why. The character in the book is practically a cypher, all we knew in WAKES is that he's good looking and fiercely loyal to his crew (eventually).

His background is sort of a cypher, but his personality is not. WAKES clearly establishes that Holden is fiercely loyal to his crew (he repeatedly asks after them first and takes danger upon himself rather than them), he's matured from a hot-headed youngster into a more morose/reflective young-middle-aged fellow (lots of sarcastic/self-deprecating quipping about his younger self), and always wants to 'do the right thing' often without thinking/caring about the longer consequences (the mass-broadcasts, his dishonourable discharge from the navy, etc).

TV-Holden doesn't have any of the maturity, nor the "do the right thing" idealism. He's still a hot-head, and it is simply less interesting in terms of motives for his actions. Looking at the mass-broadcast(s) before the Donnager, book-Holden actually reasons out why it is a good idea, and it is a combination of protecting his crew and "doing the right thing". The reader can understand the reasoning and agree "hey, that makes sense and is a good idea!" (then later the long-term consequences come down and both the reader and Holden together can experience some dismay at not realizing how that would turn out). TV-Holden is just angry/bitter and sends it out in a pique of pre-emptive revenge, including facts that the show has already setup the viewer to doubt (Holden's broadcast assumes the transponder reflects the perpetrators, but the show has already mentioned twice that that is skeptically convenient).

So no, I totally disagree that book-Holden in WAKES is a cypher, because his actions have a lot more depth to them and it teaches us about who he is. TV-Holden, on the other hand, is just a stream of emotional actions without contemplation, so its no surprise to me that a lot of viewers aren't bonding him with him... because there's nothing deeper to bond with.

Abyss, on 02 March 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

amphibian, on 02 March 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

The Butcher went from Captain to Colonel in a wartime situation. There was no Major.

That too.

Uh, no? AFAIK, there's no specific mention in the books of whether he was ever a Major, Lieutenant-Colonel or other rank/appointments between him being Captain of a missile frigate team and Colonel of the coalition Marines, but none of that time was wartime. His promotion(s) and accolades were the result of peacetime patrol and police work, not war.

Heck, the USA currently really is at war with ISIS... so if anything by this wartime vs peacetime logic Fred should have been promoted to Colonel slower than Amph's cousins.

That's entirely besides the point for me, though, because...

Abyss, on 02 March 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

amphibian, on 02 March 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 February 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I'd like to go on record as saying that Chad L. Coleman as Fred Johnson is ENTIRELY miscast. Moreso for me than the miscasting of Holden. Coleman is a fantastic actor in the right roles...but Fred is supposed to be an older guy, with more of a weary state to his character. I'd have bought Morgan Freeman, or Delroy Lindo, or Bill Cobbs in the role. Coleman as Fred feels too young to be the Butcher of Anderson Station. I mean the guy was a Colonel in the UN Marine Corps BEFORE he became the war-weary leader of the OPA...this is not a guy in his early 40's...this is a guy who should easily be early 60's. Completely miscast.

I have two cousins who are colonels. Both of them were stressed about making the cut from major, as there's only so many slots available to move up in a peacetime military. Both made it. One is late forties, the other is mid forties.

The age range is right for Fred Johnson in a war time footing (promotions a bit faster than normal).

Wonder if later books are coloring your view QT... he`s described as feeling his age by GAMES, but its not a thing in WAKES

...frankly I don't actually care if Fred Johnson looks like he is 25 or 90, nor whether he "feels it in his bones" or whatever. Regardless of his age, Fred is supposed to have a commanding presence *and* he is supposed to be menacing. Holden goes around spitting in everyone's eye without fear, except for when he is in a meeting with Fred where the book makes specific mention of Holden feeling and acting intimidated by Fred.

TV Fred just doesn't have the presence or the impact. In the conversation between Fred and that random Mormon kid, for example, there doesn't even seem to be a difference in hierarchy between them, let alone any sort of respect or chagrin from the Mormon kid. He interacts with the other main characters far too easily/casually. IMO, he doesn't even seem like an OPA politician, let alone a military commander... more like a random desk clerk.

[Abyss]

D, on 03 March 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 March 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

...
So many people are not loving Holden and i don`t understand why. The character in the book is practically a cypher, all we knew in WAKES is that he's good looking and fiercely loyal to his crew (eventually).

His background is sort of a cypher, but his personality is not. WAKES clearly establishes that Holden is fiercely loyal to his crew (he repeatedly asks after them first and takes danger upon himself rather than them), he's matured from a hot-headed youngster into a more morose/reflective young-middle-aged fellow (lots of sarcastic/self-deprecating quipping about his younger self), and always wants to 'do the right thing' often without thinking/caring about the longer consequences (the mass-broadcasts, his dishonourable discharge from the navy, etc).

Yea and nay.

He initially logs the SOS that kickstarts things because it`s 'the right thing to do`, then in his guilt and anger and a faint hope of survival also sends the `we`re the last survivors` broadcast... so I take back cypher in the sense that we see quite a bit of his personality in WAKES. TV Holden does all this too, for mostly similar reasons.

The fierce loyalty thing comes thru on the Donnager when he does everything he can to save the rest of the crew. That came thru on the show too.

But so far as that goes I thought the tv show communicated the point well. Thus...

Quote

TV-Holden doesn't have any of the maturity, nor the "do the right thing" idealism. He's still a hot-head, and it is simply less interesting in terms of motives for his actions. Looking at the mass-broadcast(s) before the Donnager, book-Holden actually reasons out why it is a good idea, and it is a combination of protecting his crew and "doing the right thing". The reader can understand the reasoning and agree "hey, that makes sense and is a good idea!" (then later the long-term consequences come down and both the reader and Holden together can experience some dismay at not realizing how that would turn out). TV-Holden is just angry/bitter and sends it out in a pique of pre-emptive revenge, including facts that the show has already setup the viewer to doubt (Holden's broadcast assumes the transponder reflects the perpetrators, but the show has already mentioned twice that that is skeptically convenient).

The same things that put you off, I don't see as a function of age or maturity so much as personality.

Quote

So no, I totally disagree that book-Holden in WAKES is a cypher, because his actions have a lot more depth to them and it teaches us about who he is. TV-Holden, on the other hand, is just a stream of emotional actions without contemplation, so its no surprise to me that a lot of viewers aren't bonding him with him... because there's nothing deeper to bond with.

So maybe the personality comes thru, but isn't as likeable on tv as in the book. That said, in the book we get far more of Holden`s perspective - different media.

Quote

.. Regardless of his age, Fred is supposed to have a commanding presence *and* he is supposed to be menacing. Holden goes around spitting in everyone's eye without fear, except for when he is in a meeting with Fred where the book makes specific mention of Holden feeling and acting intimidated by Fred.

TV Fred just doesn't have the presence or the impact. In the conversation between Fred and that random Mormon kid, for example, there doesn't even seem to be a difference in hierarchy between them, let alone any sort of respect or chagrin from the Mormon kid. He interacts with the other main characters far too easily/casually. IMO, he doesn't even seem like an OPA politician, let alone a military commander... more like a random desk clerk.

Now here I can agree w you that tv Fred is a very different character than book Fred. I just didn't find the switch as offputting. Fred is a great character in the books, but he is a supporting character, there to move the protags from job to job and help move the story behind the scenes.

[Gothos]

Up to ep. 04. THIS IS SO FUCKING AWESOME.