[Rikkter]

Tiamatha, on 02 April 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 02 April 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

I thought you'd be posting about Lock.

Why am I the lucky one?

I said that I would make a statement about you and look at Lock.

Besides, you were so, uh, kind, to write such reams about me, that I thought I would return the favour in however modest fashion.

I don't like it tiam.

You should atleast address the 5 points made on you somehow. Your defence has very little substance or structure. I spent an hours worth of work putting that together nothing less than an hour long case to the contrary will change my mind. I wasn't even trying to find these things. as I dug they kept popping up and thats just a summary.

I don't know much about MO really but he did not like GL and voted. he did not like you and voted. there is a level of consistency from him befitting town play. I cant see my case on you being weaker than your case on him. I made a case on him and his response was short sweet and to the point. his actions spoke louder than his words and I can respect that.

I will answer your 5 POINTS OF DOOM if it's making you sad that I haven't (plus it helps us to reach 600 posts).

I haven't been trying to defend, only get to that Level 5, but again, sure I can if I want to.

"His actions speak louder than his words." Well, that's an odd thing to say, as the saying hardly applies. As far as I'm aware, there has been no actions, certainly not from town. All he has been is words, what few and far between and grammatically incorrect they have been. What I think you should be saying here is, that to you, his words speak louder than my words.

Words typed whilst seated upon the porcelain throne carry the knowledge of ages and the wisdom of the ancients

[Bek Okhan]

Tiamatha, on 02 April 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 02 April 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

I thought you'd be posting about Lock.

Why am I the lucky one?

I said that I would make a statement about you and look at Lock.

Besides, you were so, uh, kind, to write such reams about me, that I thought I would return the favour in however modest fashion.

I don't like it tiam.

You should atleast address the 5 points made on you somehow. Your defence has very little substance or structure. I spent an hours worth of work putting that together nothing less than an hour long case to the contrary will change my mind. I wasn't even trying to find these things. as I dug they kept popping up and thats just a summary.

I don't know much about MO really but he did not like GL and voted. he did not like you and voted. there is a level of consistency from him befitting town play. I cant see my case on you being weaker than your case on him. I made a case on him and his response was short sweet and to the point. his actions spoke louder than his words and I can respect that.

I will answer your 5 POINTS OF DOOM if it's making you sad that I haven't (plus it helps us to reach 600 posts).

I haven't been trying to defend, only get to that Level 5, but again, sure I can if I want to.

"His actions speak louder than his words." Well, that's an odd thing to say, as the saying hardly applies. As far as I'm aware, there has been no actions, certainly not from town. All he has been is words, what few and far between and grammatically incorrect they have been. What I think you should be saying here is, that to you, his words speak louder than my words.

You're ignoring his vote actions which are the only actions worth talking about. if he is scum and you aren't how is it he voted and warned us aginst GL page two while you supported GL right till the end and voted on Lock based on feelings?

Why did you have blinders on the GL issue especially towards the end when you'd supported Rikkters point of view verbally?

[Bek Okhan]

Woohoo 18 posts left to go!

[Rikkter]

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

Woohoo 18 posts left to go!

16

[Tiamatha]

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

You're ignoring his vote actions which are the only actions worth talking about. if he is scum and you aren't how is it he voted and warned us aginst GL page two while you supported GL right till the end and voted on Lock based on feelings?

Why did you have blinders on the GL issue especially towards the end when you'd supported Rikkters point of view verbally?

Vote actions? How many dozens of different ways are there to interpret those? A townie who thinks they have scum? A townie who, whatever they're saying on thread, is just following the crowd? A scum who sees the game is up for their ally and votes to deflect attention? A scum who has no clue whether Galayn is scum too or not, but sees which way the wind is blowing and goes with it.

Why did I have blinders? Why do you have blinders for me? The answer is pretty much the same. You're pretty convinced I'm scum. I was pretty convinced that GL would turn up town, and I wasn't afraid to state that fact.

I thought Rikkter had made a good point. But I also did not see a way to enforce that point. People will post however they post. We either reach a certain number of posts, or we don't. By that point it was clear we were going up at least one level, and I didn't see the harm in getting close to another level (though not crossing that point till after night).

[Tiamatha]

Alright, I'm off to answer this case.

[Ampelas]

see i told you guys we would hit 600 by today. i have to leave for about 2 hours but i will return again in full force and hopefully get in a full reread of day 1 asap. tiam is still bothering me because he is so noncommital but i cannot pin him down as scum because of what he's said (unlike gl). it's almost like he seems scummy more because of what he has not said than what he has.

also, tiam, vote actions....yeah, thats obvious. what he meant was that mo was playing with his power on thread - the vote - rather than long posts. definitely a good action/words comparison, to say otherwise is ignorant

now interpretation is quite different, i agree, but you seem to be missing the point right now

[Rikkter]

Ampelas, on 03 April 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

see i told you guys we would hit 600 by today. i have to leave for about 2 hours but i will return again in full force and hopefully get in a full reread of day 1 asap. tiam is still bothering me because he is so noncommital but i cannot pin him down as scum because of what he's said (unlike gl). it's almost like he seems scummy more because of what he has not said than what he has.

also, tiam, vote actions....yeah, thats obvious. what he meant was that mo was playing with his power on thread - the vote - rather than long posts. definitely a good action/words comparison, to say otherwise is ignorant

now interpretation is quite different, i agree, but you seem to be missing the point right now

Leave? But we have beer. Beer. Don't leave.

[Rikkter]

Tiam, FWIW you are the only lynch candidate with the remotest chance of getting lynched today. I'm not sure of my feelings on you now so I'm going to put a vote down just on the chance we actually can get a lynch in and look at you again tomorrow when we're all safely at level 5.

[Rikkter]

Vote Tiam

[Rikkter]

4 hours and 45 minutes left.

Alkend, Ampelas, Bek Okhan, Denul, Eloth, Korabas, Kessobahn, Lock, Monok Ochem, Okral Lom, Rikkter, Tiamatha are alive.

7 votes to lynch, 6 for night.
4 votes Tiamatha: Monok Ochem, Bek Okhan, Denul, Rikkter
1 vote Monok Ochem: Tiamatha


Not voted:
Alkend, Eloth, Korabas, Kessobahn, Lock, Okral Lom

[Rikkter]

So less than 10 posts needed. I have faith in you folks, you can do it!

I however am out.

[Tiamatha]

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

Hi guys been away for most of the day but I'm online and ready to dig.

Will take me a while to pull it together but I think lots of you guys already started the ground work which is really odd for me but anyways.

Tiam:

Quote

1.The unusual derailment issue on Lock (why lock??? makes no sense to me at all.)

[snip]

Given the very structure of this post Tiam does several things.

He tries to paint GL in a favourable light. He goes against the case on signaling despite the huge amount of it then and now being uncovered on thread. (I add that I highlight the varacity of its presence only. who and what it may blame I will not go into right now.)
This post also does something REALLY weird. He all but builds a halfhearted argument against me, then looks the other way. He obviously wants me to be the highlight of the above comment but tries to slip it in as though its a nonchalant "oh this is the only left over train worth following.

After all that he votes lock. now if this was Tiams only issue as a member of town I would not mind it. Gut feel can guide players to scum and GH posted something supporting that after the Malazan game. Whats odd HOWEVER is the way he presents that gut feel, it comes across as loaded with ulterior motives.

Why discuss the vote train if your intention was to level a vote on Lock who does not even feature and has no real case against him made as of yet?

Yes I do try to paint GL in a favourable light. I have not ever tried to disguise this. More fool me, and I'm sure GL is laughing it up in SH. Some of that signalling case at that current point in time involved interactions with me, I believe, so it's not surprising that I would go against it.

I pointed you out in that post because out of the four who had votes on them at the time, you were the only one I thought might be half-decently worthy of a vote on them. And that is what I pretty much said. I outlined why I didn't think the others deserved votes. As it is, I still wasn't convinced enough by even you to vote on any of the current candidates. It wasn't "nonchalant", as you paint it, it was extremely deliberate, as I knew that the Lock vote would not gain enough traction on that day. But I wanted to bring up the name just so that it wouldn't slip by in case I died that night. In truth, as I said back then, I should have voted much earlier in the day, but nothing (from my view) came up. So I ended up going with my gut at the time.

I think I've already answered the 'why discuss the vote train' question above, but again, surely I had to give some explanation as to why I wasn't voting on any of those? Wouldn't that have looked bizarre, if I simply placed a vote on a new person without any comment on the earlier candidates, at that moment in time close to deadline?

Quote

This question was levelled on Tiam , Tiams response was this:

Tiamatha, on 01 April 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 01 April 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 01 April 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

That is to say, if I was scum and wanted to derail I would have voted on someone who already had a vote on them.

Obviously, I did want to derail from GL's lynch, because I thought they were town

What was your case on Lock again?

I didn't make one, an instinctive suspicion based on their posting, on the way they tried to point suspicion at Alkend and maybe Monok. I can put the posts together, but I want to take a look at GL first.

Again, yes, gut feeling has a place in mafia. Whats wrong about this here response is...he all but lays out his strategy.

"If I was scum and wanted to derail" can be read as

"I know you are expecting this from scum so to avoid being labelled as scum let me vote Lock because feels."

Tiam wanted GL in the game. Lock was a scapegoat and a method to distance himself from a lynch train supported by GL on me.

That is hard to swallow as a town action. REALLY hard to swallow. but I can afford it to Tiam because had he bothered to make one, a case was possible on Lock, even if somewhat thin and far inferior to anything on GL, it could still have been made.
The scummy part of all this is in the last underlined. Monok and Alkend keep being thrown in as PI's. Tiams making a case for instinct and defending people on the vote train.

I think after reviewing all the above the whole Lock vote is Tiam sowing confusion. Nestled in there are passive aggressive dislike towards my Alt and support of GL (Highly suspected Scum).

Again, yes, I did want GL in the game. BUT Lock was no scapegoat for that. I had no illusions as to the fact that if anyone was going to be lynched, it was going to be GL that day. I did not want that lynch to happen, but voting on Lock was separate from that. I even said I would vote GL if I had to, once Ampelas brought up a certain line which made me waver for the first time.

I actually think you are making too much of my vote on Lock. Sowing confusion? Hardly. The most obvious thing it did was get more people to look at me. Now, if I was scum, why on earth would I want that? As a town RI, however, it's my job to be a visible member on thread, throwing out things I like and don't like, no matter how much attention it brings my way, because in the end - especially at such an early stage of the game, I am dispensable. And even if I'm lynched, perhaps one or two things that I've managed to throw out before my demise will end up being useful to town. THAT is my thinking and informs my style of play in this game.

[Tiamatha]

Ampelas, on 03 April 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

see i told you guys we would hit 600 by today. i have to leave for about 2 hours but i will return again in full force and hopefully get in a full reread of day 1 asap. tiam is still bothering me because he is so noncommital but i cannot pin him down as scum because of what he's said (unlike gl). it's almost like he seems scummy more because of what he has not said than what he has.

also, tiam, vote actions....yeah, thats obvious. what he meant was that mo was playing with his power on thread - the vote - rather than long posts. definitely a good action/words comparison, to say otherwise is ignorant

now interpretation is quite different, i agree, but you seem to be missing the point right now

Hardly.

[Bek Okhan]

Tiamatha, on 03 April 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

You're ignoring his vote actions which are the only actions worth talking about. if he is scum and you aren't how is it he voted and warned us aginst GL page two while you supported GL right till the end and voted on Lock based on feelings?

Why did you have blinders on the GL issue especially towards the end when you'd supported Rikkters point of view verbally?

Vote actions? How many (1) dozens of different ways are there to interpret those? A townie who thinks they have scum? A townie who, whatever they're saying on thread, is just following the crowd? A scum who sees the game is up for their ally and votes to deflect attention? A scum who has no clue whether Galayn is scum too or not, but sees which way the wind is blowing and goes with it.

Why did I have blinders? (2)Why do you have blinders for me? The answer is pretty much the same. You're pretty convinced I'm scum. I was pretty convinced that GL would turn up town, and I wasn't afraid to state that fact.

I thought Rikkter had made a good point. (3)But I also did not see a way to enforce that point. People will post however they post. We either reach a certain number of posts, or we don't. By that point it was clear we were going up at least one level, and I didn't see the harm in getting close to another level (though not crossing that point till after night).

1. Many ways to interpret them but there is only one way to certify them. Starting a trend on GL that early in game and sticking to that vote means alot. I am not putting MO as likely innocent but I find an entire day sticking to a vote on a scum candidate who played like scum and turned up to be scum...you must admit its a stretch this was done by a fellow scum candidate, A first vote I might add, as being a good scum tactic. The votes have profiles. Good Mafia players read into those profiles.

Also if monok is scum and he voted GL with knowledge he was scum what makes you any different? You both did the same thing after all.

2. I don't. I just looked at you the hardest. I've made several other cases. Good ones perhaps? thats for others to judge. I'm looking at several people closely. You did not look at GL closely. all the markers for scum were there. it makes you either really REALLY bad town or obstinant scum. either way I think towns better off wthout you. not being able to read GL as atleast a little scummy makes you a liability.

3. If there was no way to control how close you'd get why then push to be close in the first place with no assurance you would not go over the edge. This is a weak rebuttal.

Edit: Changed Atarting to Starting.

This post has been edited by Bek Okhan: 03 April 2014 - 12:23 AM

[Tiamatha]

Lol, at least nobody lynch me until I've finished doing this.

[Tiamatha]

Bek Okhan, on 03 April 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

2. I don't. I just looked at you the hardest. I've made several other cases. Good ones perhaps? thats for others to judge. I'm looking at several people closely. You did not look at GL closely. all the markers for scum were there. it makes you either really REALLY bad town or obstinant scum. either way I think towns better off wthout you. not being able to read GL as atleast a little scummy makes you a liability.

Bek, this is the best thing you've posted so far. I'm actually grinning. Sigh. Ok, after I'm done with your case, I may have a further comment to make on this.

[Tiamatha]

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Tiam continued:

Quote

2. The support of a high posting Day 1

3.Somewhat unusual interpolation of events

Just piggy back on everything already highlighted.

Tiam has always said he liked the drive for numbers but a few times he claims to follow the reasoning behind Rikkters strategy.

He supported the loudest player after this admission and frowned on any one Low posting. I'm calling this a look left and go right manouevre and he is gooood at it. I don't think I need to go back and quote that many individual instances as several of you guys already have.
Tiams said he hoped to unleash his level 5 powers...well here we are driving for it. too bad its his history that has the most interesting content.

And why is mine the most interesting? Because I posted and posted more and gave you things to look at, for better or worse! The fact that we're now going to make level 5 is down to, in significant part, Rikkter, Galayn, Ampelas...oh, and me. So should I not be at least getting some thanks for that?

I followed Rikkter's reasoning, in that I agreed it was sensible, but I didn't believe it was necessarily enforceable, and that was the flaw I saw in it. I supported those who wanted to shoot for Level 5 because that's the same thing I wanted.

Quote

I will quote my original case on Tiam. I admit from here I jumped to monok and then on to GL. There was a lot bothering about Tiam beforehand though.

[snip]

This supports my suspicion of Tiam.

Lol, well of course it does. It's your own case

Quote

scum will thrive in a heard of overactive town trying to rush for levels. scum wants a loud noisy game.

Ah see, this I think is a fundamental disagreement. Or perhaps rather, I would refine this statement. Scum wants a townie headless chicken game, yes, but so that they can hide within it, not so that they can join in with it. Galayn, I would suggest, is going to prove to be an outlier among the scum.

Quote

Rikkters strategy is sound. our day 1 should go off info collected already in regards to activity and content.

That statement was actually something I very strongly disagreed with. To my mind, who was Rikkter to say when we should stop discussing things, when we should stop poking and prodding? Who was Rikkter to say, 'that's enough guys, we don't need any more, everyone stop contributing.' That really rubbed me up the wrong way. And fuck the levelling in this, because it shouldn't take precedence over the actual mafia questioning and pushing. If there was still discussion to be had, then that should go through.

Quote

the obvious targets perk up pretty quickly and those not so obvious will wind it hard to stay silent if town get good lynch momentum. picking out candidates off history rather than relying on a level 5 power which in our rush to achieve makes it easier to level up scum.

As I just said above my disagreement in this regard had nothing to do with the levelling up mechanic.

Quote

After that last red underline...can't think Tiam altered or considered, supported or even reflected Rikkters strategy over GLs push for thread content. Any support of GL after contradicts the admission Rikkters idea is on point.

I find this coupled with his attitude on the train to be highly suspicious. and worthy of scum

I've already outlined in previous replies why this was the case.

[Bek Okhan]

Tiamatha, on 03 April 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

Lol, at least nobody lynch me until I've finished doing this.

No worries, think its just three of us still in here last I checked.

[Tiamatha]

Bek Okhan, on 02 April 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

Ok point 5

Quote

5.Open Support of GL

has already been addressed and is evident in every quote running the Tiam as scum angle.

I think Tiam deserves a lynch. Im gonna vote on him but maybe the train can be a bit relaxed? we need to pad our post count and stay well away from hammering till maybe the last two hours or less.

Vote Tiamatha

Where's point 4?