[Studious Lock]

Please dont leave us Scotland, I hate to think how our future general elections will turn out without you helping us. I don't want to spend my entire life in a Tory country!

[Gothos]

Scotland could always apply to join the Russian Federation, no?

In light of recent events, I'd say them Scots should reconsider becoming a new small player in the political landscape, with no allies, friends or relevance.

[Macros]

I just like someone needs to sit down and call the snp on their bullshit and ask for a transparent balance sheet of where they see all the money for this brave new Scotland coming from.
They wont be getting the sterling, they wont breeze into the EU, not by any means at all.
there's 1.5 trillion squids worth of oil and gas in the north sea, sure, they fail to mention recovering it all and dismantling afterwards will cost most of a Trillion.
How are they going to replace jobs lost on the dockyards from royal navy contracts? They cant compete with the powerhouses of the continent on bidding for big jobs. How are they going to support the broadened civil service burden that will arrive from splitting from the motherland?
Not enough clear answers too much braveheart patriotism going on.

not that I give a fuck, in basic numbers Scotland gets more per head of tax money than a lot of the uk so if they wanna leave, oh well.

[Coco with marshmallows]

They also give more in tax than a lot of the uk.

Its one of the quirks of economics that this is one of the occasions where both sides can give truthful yet seemingly contradictory statements.

Scotland gives uk treasury 9.4% of tax revenue,
gets back 9.2% of public spending.

So they contribute a greater share.

HOWEVER, as the country is in a deficit, that 9.2% of spending equates to the more per head of tax money that you mentioned.

Regarding the Royal Navy contracts - Scotland will have a navy as well. I'd imagine that like most sovereign nations they'd plan to build their ships on their own soil.

Now, in line with current proposals vs current spending: currently Scotland spends £3.3 Billion on defence (per year). SNP plan for spending of approx £2 Billion per year, a potential saving of £1.3 Billion per year

The current generation of US Supercarriers cost about $9 Billion over 8 years. Over 8 years Scotland could (hypothetically, all other things being equal) save £10.4 Billion - note currency - that's approx $16 Billion give or take.

Regarding Sterling - you are aware that a country is entitled to use any major tradeable currency on the face of the planet as legal tender if it so chooses? They wouldn't be able to set interest rates, but if the pro independence groups do get their way, its not like i'll suddenly wake up on 19 September and find out my savings have disappeared/translated into some foreign currency.

[Gnaw]

I Am Brian Blessed Not Brent Weeks, on 05 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

Regarding the Royal Navy contracts - Scotland will have a navy as well. I'd imagine that like most sovereign nations they'd plan to build their ships on their own soil.

Unless Ukraine still has ships to sell that is not going to be nearly as easy as it you make it sound. The capability to build warships =/= designing your own.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Gnaw, on 06 June 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

Unless Ukraine still has ships to sell that is not going to be nearly as easy as it you make it sound. The capability to build warships =/= designing your own.

Excellent point.

There are two universities in the UK that offer Naval Architecture as a degree course.

Southampton and Strathclyde (which is in Glasgow).

[Macros]

So as a nation with a population of, what 5 million (total guess, cant be arsed checking) you think can justify (Bearing in mind I think the UK expenditure is ridiculous) building a fleet and air force from scratch? That shit wont be cheap, infrastructure is partly in place but all facilities will be dismantled and shipped south, its nit just the case of building a boat.
as for the money vrs money out, a lot of that tax is generated via British companies, several big ones have threaten to shift south.
I never suggested your maney would be taken away, what I'm saying is you won't be part of the GBP economy, and will either be dependant on a foreign nations currency, and this at the bank of England's mercy and not the masters of your own fate, or you'll set up a new currency, which will again cost money, and you will then have to enter the world currency market and ensure you keep yourself strong, and have solid growth to avoid devaluation.
I'm far from an expert but of all the nonsense I hear spouted on both sides at work I think for most people its going to be a depressingly uneducated decision that will impact everyone. If the commonwealth games are a huge success then I see a wave of patriotism flying it through, without a real consideration of the impacts.
even simple things, your company might by uk wide, all of a sudden, calling clients in England is an international call. You think mobile companies aren't going to jump all over a chance to rape their customers? The day and second a divide becomes legal.calling your mate in newcaslte has just quadrupled in price. Head off ice in London? Travelling workforce? Sounds like stupid stuff, but for the little man its shit that adds up, and make no mistake, if its not done perfectly and SNP aren't telling you 100000%of the truth, its the little man that will suffer the most

[Coco with marshmallows]

Macros, on 06 June 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

So as a nation with a population of, what 5 million (total guess, cant be arsed checking) you think can justify (Bearing in mind I think the UK expenditure is ridiculous) building a fleet and air force from scratch? That shit wont be cheap, infrastructure is partly in place but all facilities will be dismantled and shipped south, its nit just the case of building a boat.
as for the money vrs money out, a lot of that tax is generated via British companies, several big ones have threaten to shift south.
I never suggested your maney would be taken away, what I'm saying is you won't be part of the GBP economy, and will either be dependant on a foreign nations currency, and this at the bank of England's mercy and not the masters of your own fate, or you'll set up a new currency, which will again cost money, and you will then have to enter the world currency market and ensure you keep yourself strong, and have solid growth to avoid devaluation.
I'm far from an expert but of all the nonsense I hear spouted on both sides at work I think for most people its going to be a depressingly uneducated decision that will impact everyone. If the commonwealth games are a huge success then I see a wave of patriotism flying it through, without a real consideration of the impacts.
even simple things, your company might by uk wide, all of a sudden, calling clients in England is an international call. You think mobile companies aren't going to jump all over a chance to rape their customers? The day and second a divide becomes legal.calling your mate in newcaslte has just quadrupled in price. Head off ice in London? Travelling workforce? Sounds like stupid stuff, but for the little man its shit that adds up, and make no mistake, if its not done perfectly and SNP aren't telling you 100000%of the truth, its the little man that will suffer the most

All good points Mac.

But you're assuming that the horse trading that will ensue will leave Scotland with no air force/navy to begin with. Obviously that would be unlikely, as the SNP have the hammer of refusing to take on debt.
Seriously, why would Scotland assume a %age share of the debt (as they have offered to do) if they don't get an equivalent %age share of the existing assets (Ships and planes)?

Same goes for infrastructure.

Absolutely agree that for many people this will be a 'gut' decision, without looking at options, which is even more moronic than the standard issue of people voting along party lines regardless of policies.

But the idea that the onus is on SNP to tell the truth is interesting, considering the rash of disproven crap the treasury have put forward (the set up costs for an independent Scotland being multiplied by a factor of 10-12 according to Professor Patrick Dunleavy is the most striking recent example of this in my mind - Professor Dunleavy is the man whose research the treasury based their estimates on)

BOTH sides need to cut the horse****. But that's never going to happen as both have their own agendas to push.

[Macros]

True, both shits are as full of shit as a pig house, thats politics I guess. I'm aware my arguments are skewed with confirmation bias as I think Scotland should stay in the UK, if for nothing else it will give idiots over here ideas to kick off again. I do try to see both sides of arguments but I'm well aware that I terrible at it despite my efforts, I just see Salmond as kind of sneaky and sleazy for some reason (again, basically any politician) and hearing the mouth breathers on site spouting off complete idiotic nonsense probably pushes me further into my corner and narrows my view.

I wasnt aware snp had offered to take a share of debtm if thats the case then yes there will be serious bartering going on for assets and services, but the point and case remains regarding population density and the highlands, costs will go up by the very virtue of scotlands large spread.

[Inane Babble]

I don't even want to think about what fresh kinds of hell the "redesign the flag" issue alone will create over here let alone anything else.

[Macros]

union jack wont change.

[Gnaw]

I Am Brian Blessed Not Brent Weeks, on 06 June 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

But you're assuming that the horse trading that will ensue will leave Scotland with no air force/navy to begin with. Obviously that would be unlikely, as the SNP have the hammer of refusing to take on debt.
Seriously, why would Scotland assume a %age share of the debt (as they have offered to do) if they don't get an equivalent %age share of the existing assets (Ships and planes)?

Same goes for infrastructure.

Macros, on 06 June 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

I wasnt aware snp had offered to take a share of debtm if thats the case then yes there will be serious bartering going on for assets and services

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially a contested divorce? If the SNP thinks they can get away with an equitable split of assets they're out of their fracking minds. IF they get the UK to give them ships and airplanes, they are almost certainly going to get out-dated pieces of shit one step short of the boneyard. And they'll be accounted for at full retail.

I will bet you that if some intrepid soul went looking, they'd find that there has been a quiet but massive exchange of physical assets. Anything new or near new has been shifted south and replaced with tired pieces of crap. And that's if there is much 'new' to begin with. I'll also wager that you'll find that equipment, maintenance, replacement, etc budgets have been slashed for the last couple of years.

Scotland will be damn lucky if they don't have to pay the equivalent of alimony and child support for the next twenty years or so.

[Macros]

Not so, a lot of money has been thrown at the rosyth dockyards and faslane submarine yards in the last few years, with investment continuing. RAF lineam has had money spent as well.
when its comes to the MoD, its a blank cheque my friend, and money is spent like a drunk horny sailor in port

[Tiste Simeon]

An interesting article: http://www.telegraph...hey-defend.html

Sure the article is written with a bias but it does bring up some interesting points.

[Gust Hubb]

Personally, I wish Texas would just successfully cede...

[Coco with marshmallows]

To be honest Tiste,

that's complete bullshit.

ALL forces members serving abroad are entitled to a postal vote at a residential address - that can be a spouse or a parent.

Case in point - my brother is serving in Canada at present. Family are with him (so no main UK domicile). Registered voting address is with my parents here in Scotland.

That's ALWAYS been the case for any election, not just this referendum.

To bring it up and make a song and dance about it when there are well established means of arranging a vote in these circumstances is ludicrous.

[Coco with marshmallows]

yeah, think it's largely been a non issue internationally till last weekend when one (out of god knows how many) opinion polls came out with a lead for a Yes vote.

suddenly it became a big deal, to the point that the leaders of the three main political parties in London have decided to cancel their regular political schedule and come up here to campaign for a no vote.

[Malaclypse]

I think it's brilliant that Scotland might actually manage it, mainly because they seem to actually have the cojones to go through with it in the face of dire sanctions. Roll on distinct society and all that stuff!

[Illuyankas]

(why do media tags not work with https, only http? weird)

[Coco with marshmallows]

seen that already.

Still, 97% of the electorate has registered to vote in the referendum.

Extraordinary. Wonder what percentage turnout there's going to be.