[Whiskeyjackuk]

Is the Malazan Empire nothing but tyrannical? Laseen before she croaked embarked on nothing taking everything and anything her soldiers could take. They cared for nothing but sweeping more lands into her lap.
The soldiers and officers seem quite willing to slaughter and take nasty risks to enslave more lands for her. It just seems as if the Empire and particularly Laseen are cold fish, little emotion and dead to everything except power and more power.
I will say this though, when reading of battles and campaigns I am always wanting the Malazan opponents to win and kill them. there is just something unlikeable about some of the Malazan people.
Of course I may well be so well off the mark.

[Aptorian]

I would argue that you need to read up on some machiavelli or similar thinkers and how one controls an empire. Respect and the love of the people are nice and all but fear is a much better motivator when you want to ensure that your ass stays planted on the throne.

As far as I recall we only ever see Laseen do three "bad" things. She culled the magical population in the Mouse Quarter, she culled the aristocracy of the empire and she made the Wickans scapegoats of the loss of 7C. Now, if all you are seeing is the destruction and loss of life it all probably looks pretty evil and dark. How ever Laseen is only doing what she must.

An entire city quarter filled with magically powerful people that she cannot control, is a danger to the empire and her position. I assume some negotiation took place before the she sent troops in, how ever things obviously went sour and so, if they wont join her the have to die. There's no two ways about that in a medieval powerstructure.

The aristocracy is always the biggest danger to a ruler. You need them to control the lands and run the government but they are also as likely to turn against you if they see an oppertunity to gain power or wealth. Hell, maybe they just don't like your position on Roe vs Wade. So, when you smell a conspiracy and you need to make an example, you don't just single out one person and rip him apart in the town square. You kill alot of them, maybe you kill them all just to be sure. When you've done that nobody else will want to fuck with you and if you're smart you turn it into a case of "corruption and stealing from the people" and next thing you know the people love you for killing those assholes who have been bleeding them dry with taxes for years and years.

If the coffers are running low you could also just kill the richest citizens and take their land and wealth and voila! The financial crisis is solved. The Romans were fond of that kind of stuff, look no further than to Emperor Nero for a good example.

The Wickan "Betrayal" was actually brilliant in my opinion. The empire has just lost half a continent, it's military strength is sorely depleted and with the loss the empire has lost its bread basket. So what do you do? You can't have the population turn its anger against you, so you direct it somewhere else. The Wickans have plenty of potential farmland and they are a weak opponent. So you take all the angry plebs, give them some hoes and horseshoes and send them off to settle new land. With them you send all those disagreeable lords and ladies who are a political problem. In one fell swoop you have given the people a focus for their hatred and everyone will be too busy trying to get a piece of the pie to worry about the loss of 7C.

Generally speaking from what we see and hear, the Malazan Empire is actually the greatest force of peace of progress in the world at this point. Where they go they bring industry and swords. They build roads, they build cities, they hold the peace. Slavery is forbidden in the empire. Cults are not forbidden but they have no political influence either. Rake and Brood both accept this truth.

[Whiskeyjackuk]

Slavery forbidden? Yet sends people to the Otataral mines? That's basically slavery. I think Laseen falls slightly short of dictatorship. She's cruel, vindictive and ruthless. Okay, she may have only done three bad things. but those three are pretty nasty. She wiped out any who she felt didn't think her fit to rule. Just because she lost a certain area of land she decides to commit genocide, that's "bad"? There is, or rather was, just a niggle there about Laseen. It made you almost sort of hate her appearing on the page, be it her speaking, or others talking about her actions. they show her to be rather well....sadistic.

[nacht]

You remind me of Hull Beddict.
The history of power is the history of tyranny. The best you can hope for is a "benevolent" despot who can provide some level of security for the common man (in contrast to a malevolent despot) .

[Aptorian]

The people going in to the mines are "bad people". Criminals and rogue mages. There's no difference between the O-mines and various penal colonies that the West have run. In Denmark it is no longer legal to use criminals for forced labor, but I believe that the US still uses prisoners to clean roadsides and various kinds of labor. Sure, the O-mines are a pretty nasty place but we're not talking about modern day society here. Back in the day, if you break the law or displease the powers that be you are going to have a bad time. There's a difference between a prison labor camp and slavery for the sake of economic gain.

You can't use modern day ideas of right or wrong in a medieval society. Ideas of human rights and "fair and just" punishment are all well and good, but the Malazan Empire has not reached a development point where such ideas could find fertile ground.

An empress cannot afford to look weak, neither in front of her population or the barbarians on the other side of the empires borders. Laseen has done what she felt she had to do to keep the Empire stable and strong. You may not agree with her choices but ask yourself, how would you keep control of an Empire that spans 3 continents? Nice words and good intentions?

[Egwene]

You guys might be interested in the discussion that took place during the Tor re-read recently.

There was a pretty lively debate on the topic Empire and SE commented at length. If the link does not work, the debate is following Dust of Dreams, Chapter four and SE's post is no. 36.

[Kanese S's]

Whiskeyjackuk, on 13 February 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Slavery forbidden? Yet sends people to the Otataral mines? That's basically slavery. I think Laseen falls slightly short of dictatorship. She's cruel, vindictive and ruthless. Okay, she may have only done three bad things. but those three are pretty nasty. She wiped out any who she felt didn't think her fit to rule. Just because she lost a certain area of land she decides to commit genocide, that's "bad"? There is, or rather was, just a niggle there about Laseen. It made you almost sort of hate her appearing on the page, be it her speaking, or others talking about her actions. they show her to be rather well....sadistic.

Of course it's a sort of dictatorship. It's an Empire.

As for the Otataral mines... it's a prison camp. It's pretty horrifying, but the USA in real life uses prison labor.

As for the being ruthless... yeah, she is. So are her enemies. You pretty much have to be, to rule an empire.

Committing genocide... are you referring to the Wickans? Seven Cities had been the bread basket of the Empire and it was wiped out by war and plague. Which is worse, the unjustified seizure of Wickan lands, or widespread famine? I'm not saying she chose correctly, just that it was kind of a crappy set of options.

And yes, she can be sadistic. She was the head of the Claw before becoming Empress.

[Kanese S's]

Basically agree with everything Apt said.


Beyond which, I'd like to ask, what alternatives do you see in this particular world? What types of governments do other places have? The Free Cities or whatever were a patchwork of squabbling, usually autocratic city-states before the Malazans arrived. Not sure what Pale's government was like, but while Darujhistan is nominally a democracy, it's pretty clear that you only really get a say in the government if you're wealthy, and besides which, the place is arguably ruled in truth by a shadowy cabal. Just because there isn't a single ruler does not make the place much less autocratic.

Capustan, prior to MoI, seemed to be ruled by a monarchy and a council of priests, some of whom were blatantly corrupt. While its government isn't depicted as especially bad, per se, it's not really much, if any better, than that of the Malazan Empire. Its culture is arguably more sexist as well. So much for that.

Then we've got the Pannion Domin. Not much to go on for what the governmental systems of the places it took over were like before being consumed by a totalitarian, expansionist, psychotic theocracy. Give me the Malazan Empire's rule any day.

Then we've got the Tiste Andii. It seems to be basically a military dictatorship/monarchy, with basically all power concentrated in Anomander Rake. This works, but largely because Anomander Rake is a (mostly) benevolent guy, not because it's a good system.

The Barghast system seems to involve clan chiefs, and possibly fighting to the death for leadership and such. While not depicted as all that bad, they do have some horrifying practices, as shown later in the series.

Not sure how the Rhivi govern themselves, but it's probably similar.

The Moranth government remains ever mysterious. I somehow doubt it's particularly progressive or democratic, though.

Teblor tribes seem to be governed basically by whoever is the strongest. I don't think their society is one to be emulated. Rather rapey.

I can't remember what Unta was before being conquered by the Malazans. Lots of nobility running around, though, who were later killed in large numbers.

Quon Tali and Li Heng, as I recall, were both monarchies. The latter did not treat their nomadic neighbors, the Seti, particularly well, from what I recall. Life was probably far from ideal on most of the Quon Tali continent before the Malazans came (not that it's ideal now, just that it was probably just as bad, if not worse, prior to the invasion).

Everything in Deadhouse Gates and House of Chains indicated that Malazan conquest was the best thing ever to happen to Seven Cities. Despite the nostalgia of being independent, it seems to be stated that the Malazans put a stop to some of the most horrifying practices, and with their conquest brought at least temporary peace, a respite from the continuous fighting between various city states (again, none of which were likely very democratic) and nomadic groups that had previously plagued the region.

The Perish seem to be a military dictatorship.

Lether was pretty horrible to all the peoples it conquered, from what's said of it in Midnight Tides. Worse than the Malazan Empire, by quite some margin, it seems. And an absolute monarchy to boot.

The Tiste Edur seem to be basically tribal monarchies, who eventually unite under one big monarch, and also practice widespread slavery. Still not looking great compared to the Malazan system.

What little we've seen of the Tiste Liosan seems to indicate that they are a military dictatorship/theocracy. How wonderful.

Assail is ruled by a ruthless human tyrant, apparently, so powerful that entire T'lan Imass armies have been cut to ribbons.


So... in comparison, the Malazan Empire actually looks pretty good, at least to me. It's best to keep in mind that we're not dealing with modern, democratic nation states here. Yes, the Malazans are expansionist and take over other places through ruthless conquest. But is there a better alternative out there in this world? Were most of the Malazan Empire's conquests any better off before? It doesn't seem like it.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Also, even the enemies of the Malazan Empire admit that being ruled under the Malazans is better than prior to. I can't remember the exact quotes but I am sure multiple times, characters have remarked on the sturcture and law being much more civilised and towns and cities thriving without the old disputes that were present before Malazans took over. Granted this was possibly before Lasseen but it still stands. I agree with the previous posters that some fear needs to be kept as well as respect and love from and for your subjects. I think Lasseen is worse than Kallenved was a leader though, if that makes any difference. She doesn't seem to have friends like he did. Which is never a good place to be as leader, see Julius Caesar for confirmation. Some of the Malazan forces are corrupt, but the most part they seem to be decent, don't rule with an iron fist, and for the most part seem to be a good thing for the areas where they take over IMO

[Fnarley]

Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 14 February 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Also, even the enemies of the Malazan Empire admit that being ruled under the Malazans is better than prior to. I can't remember the exact quotes but I am sure multiple times, characters have remarked on the sturcture and law being much more civilised and towns and cities thriving without the old disputes that were present before Malazans took over. Granted this was possibly before Lasseen but it still stands. I agree with the previous posters that some fear needs to be kept as well as respect and love from and for your subjects. I think Lasseen is worse than Kallenved was a leader though, if that makes any difference. She doesn't seem to have friends like he did. Which is never a good place to be as leader, see Julius Caesar for confirmation. Some of the Malazan forces are corrupt, but the most part they seem to be decent, don't rule with an iron fist, and for the most part seem to be a good thing for the areas where they take over IMO

Yeah this is pretty much how I see it, in both Deadhouse Gates and again in Return of the Crimson Guard we hear how malazan rule is probably better because they bring justice and rule of law and security. In RotCG for example we have characters who despite fighting the malazans admit that unless they can win fast and establish a new regime the entire continent will descend into the old way aka constant war between rival city states and in deadhouse gates we hear how much of a shitshow seven cities was pre-conquest.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 14 February 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Also, even the enemies of the Malazan Empire admit that being ruled under the Malazans is better than prior to. I can't remember the exact quotes but I am sure multiple times, characters have remarked on the sturcture and law being much more civilised and towns and cities thriving without the old disputes that were present before Malazans took over. Granted this was possibly before Lasseen but it still stands. I agree with the previous posters that some fear needs to be kept as well as respect and love from and for your subjects. I think Lasseen is worse than Kallenved was a leader though, if that makes any difference. She doesn't seem to have friends like he did. Which is never a good place to be as leader, see Julius Caesar for confirmation. Some of the Malazan forces are corrupt, but the most part they seem to be decent, don't rule with an iron fist, and for the most part seem to be a good thing for the areas where they take over IMO

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 14 May 2015 - 10:49 PM

[FlynntMillit]

The description of pre-malazan Kartool in tBH is pretty awful too.

As far as laseen goes, by the time I finished RotCG I was much more sympathetic towards her. Even in tBH I was starting to understand why she did what she did.

[Kanese S's]

FlynntMillit, on 13 May 2016 - 02:46 AM, said:

The description of pre-malazan Kartool in tBH is pretty awful too.

As far as laseen goes, by the time I finished RotCG I was much more sympathetic towards her. Even in tBH I was starting to understand why she did what she did.

I hated Laseen through all of GotM and most of DG until the very end. And even then, I wasn't too fond of her. But in RotCG, when she died, I honestly cried. This achievement of emotional connection with a character I'd previously hated (as a person; she was always well written as a character) is why I feel that ICE is a great author.


But in any case, yes. Kartool prior to the Malazans? Completely awful. Just utterly wretched. Seven Cities prior to the Empire? Terrible place full of slavery, bickering city-states, constant warfare between cities and nomadic groups and all kinds of abuses. Quon Tali before the Malazans? An aristocracy's playground with little to no social mobility and feuding petty kingdoms, all with their own sets of contradictory laws, and again, lots of warfare between cities and nomadic peoples. The Free cities before the Malazans? Basically the same. Genabaris was described in very unflattering terms as being pretty bad before the Malazans came and turned it into a prosperous city. The Lether Empire was horrible before the Malazan invasion as well.