[Daeg]

MODGOD NOTICE OF TOPIC SPLIT: Moved posts from the "What's Messing with Your Groove?" thread into new topic here, due to the debate that ensued derailing the Groove thread. Original post which 'started' the debate is this one, in response to the quoted post from the Groove thread. Happy debating.

- Silencer

CowboyYojimbo, on 09 January 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

I discovered the woman I've been enamored with, and trying to make time for a date with for months, has mental health issues, and lied to me to cut a date short, and go smoke pot to "ease" herself. Now she needs "time to sort her self out" and I can't tell whats real about her. Really sweet and great person whos just been kicked around too much and needs support? Or awful person stringing me along?
I then drove home almost three hours away and failed to get the time i wanted on a wildfire fit test. Twenty Third birthday is on Saturday, which is depressing cause I live at home, am single, and my career interests firefighting, writing and film are near impossible to get in to.

I generally don't vomit my issues on people but I'm humiliated and had an extra scotch.
Handy thread!

I didn't read any other responses but this is what I have to say...

Don't waste your time. Unless you like to be the "anchor" or the "strong" one, move on.

I'm in my second marriage and I can tell you one thing for sure "mental" issues do not get better with time. The more the "stronger" one does to help, the less the "challenged" one steps up. If the "stronger" one stands back, to give the other one space or whatever, then the "stronger" one is at fault. Its a no win situation and unless you want to spend the rest of your life trying to "fix" or "understand" the problem, then find a strong, independent mate who doesn't "need" someone in their life.

I realize I'm going to take some hits from the more "educated" among us for speaking my opinion. I admit that I have never taken a psychology class but I have struggled with some issus of my own and I have spent time with plenty of "damaged" people. Some of those people ended up in prison for one thing or another but almost all of them have the same habitual natures that have always caused them trouble.

There is one basic truth in life...we are who we are...if we are selfish and jealous and petty...then that's who we are, nothing will change that. If we are brave and generous and loving, then that's who we are and nothing will change that.

We are who we are...no one can fix us...not medication or love or understanding...not beating or insults...not counseling or rehabilitation... We are who we are

This post has been edited by Silencer: 12 January 2014 - 04:21 AM
Reason for edit: Posts split and moved to DB.

[Silencer]

Daeg, on 11 January 2014 - 03:55 AM, said:

CowboyYojimbo, on 09 January 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

I discovered the woman I've been enamored with, and trying to make time for a date with for months, has mental health issues, and lied to me to cut a date short, and go smoke pot to "ease" herself. Now she needs "time to sort her self out" and I can't tell whats real about her. Really sweet and great person whos just been kicked around too much and needs support? Or awful person stringing me along?
I then drove home almost three hours away and failed to get the time i wanted on a wildfire fit test. Twenty Third birthday is on Saturday, which is depressing cause I live at home, am single, and my career interests firefighting, writing and film are near impossible to get in to.

I generally don't vomit my issues on people but I'm humiliated and had an extra scotch.
Handy thread!

I didn't read any other responses but this is what I have to say...

Don't waste your time. Unless you like to be the "anchor" or the "strong" one, move on.

I'm in my second marriage and I can tell you one thing for sure "mental" issues do not get better with time. The more the "stronger" one does to help, the less the "challenged" one steps up. If the "stronger" one stands back, to give the other one space or whatever, then the "stronger" one is at fault. Its a no win situation and unless you want to spend the rest of your life trying to "fix" or "understand" the problem, then find a strong, independent mate who doesn't "need" someone in their life.

I realize I'm going to take some hits from the more "educated" among us for speaking my opinion. I admit that I have never taken a psychology class but I have struggled with some issus of my own and I have spent time with plenty of "damaged" people. Some of those people ended up in prison for one thing or another but almost all of them have the same habitual natures that have always caused them trouble.

There is one basic truth in life...we are who we are...if we are selfish and jealous and petty...then that's who we are, nothing will change that. If we are brave and generous and loving, then that's who we are and nothing will change that.

We are who we are...no one can fix us...not medication or love or understanding...not beating or insults...not counseling or rehabilitation... We are who we are

Wow. That's...horrendously ignorant and short-sighted.

There is a considerable difference between someone's personality, and a mental illness. Defining someone, "who they are", by the latter is probably one of the more offensive, and destructive, things you could possibly do.

Never mind the use of quotation marks around "mental" issues, or the staggeringly anecdotal nature of your claim that ALL people with mental illness NEVER get "better" over time - regardless of the fact that these conditions are not fully understood and are highly individualistic, that claim is patently untrue.

There is a difference between a person with depression, a person with bi-polar, and a person who is a manipulative asshole looking for attention. But I'm not about to go making the claim that any of those people can't change, won't change, or shouldn't seek help and support. I mean...wtf?

I'm not even going to go into the science of this stuff - there are literally environmental, social, emotional, and physical factors which can affect a person's behaviour and personality, for which there are both medicated and non-medicated approaches to treating, depending on whether the issue is hormonal/chemical, or something else - but essentially your entire stance is that all people who are not *inherently* nice are just naturally unpleasant people with problems who can't overcome them?



Fuck. Honestly, if that was directed at a forum member who had mental health issues, you'd be getting banned for breaching the code of conduct. As it is, you'll just have to live my distaste for your opinion. I'm sorry you've apparently had difficulty with people who have their own issues in your life, and that you've had trouble with your own issues, but seriously, don't go bashing everyone who has mental health problems and assuming that they're all the same - it's ignorant, prejudiced, and quite offensive/destructive for the people you're talking about.


/end rant.


That's not making a call one way or another for CY's decision here - it's not making a claim that being with someone who has mental health issues is easy, or that the girl in question is not just screwing around with him. That's a tough call to make in either case, and requires a good amount of consideration before going one way or the other.

[Daeg]

Silencer, on 11 January 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Daeg, on 11 January 2014 - 03:55 AM, said:

CowboyYojimbo, on 09 January 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

I discovered the woman I've been enamored with, and trying to make time for a date with for months, has mental health issues, and lied to me to cut a date short, and go smoke pot to "ease" herself. Now she needs "time to sort her self out" and I can't tell whats real about her. Really sweet and great person whos just been kicked around too much and needs support? Or awful person stringing me along?
I then drove home almost three hours away and failed to get the time i wanted on a wildfire fit test. Twenty Third birthday is on Saturday, which is depressing cause I live at home, am single, and my career interests firefighting, writing and film are near impossible to get in to.

I generally don't vomit my issues on people but I'm humiliated and had an extra scotch.
Handy thread!

I didn't read any other responses but this is what I have to say...

Don't waste your time. Unless you like to be the "anchor" or the "strong" one, move on.

I'm in my second marriage and I can tell you one thing for sure "mental" issues do not get better with time. The more the "stronger" one does to help, the less the "challenged" one steps up. If the "stronger" one stands back, to give the other one space or whatever, then the "stronger" one is at fault. Its a no win situation and unless you want to spend the rest of your life trying to "fix" or "understand" the problem, then find a strong, independent mate who doesn't "need" someone in their life.

I realize I'm going to take some hits from the more "educated" among us for speaking my opinion. I admit that I have never taken a psychology class but I have struggled with some issus of my own and I have spent time with plenty of "damaged" people. Some of those people ended up in prison for one thing or another but almost all of them have the same habitual natures that have always caused them trouble.

There is one basic truth in life...we are who we are...if we are selfish and jealous and petty...then that's who we are, nothing will change that. If we are brave and generous and loving, then that's who we are and nothing will change that.

We are who we are...no one can fix us...not medication or love or understanding...not beating or insults...not counseling or rehabilitation... We are who we are

Wow. That's...horrendously ignorant and short-sighted.

There is a considerable difference between someone's personality, and a mental illness. Defining someone, "who they are", by the latter is probably one of the more offensive, and destructive, things you could possibly do.

Never mind the use of quotation marks around "mental" issues, or the staggeringly anecdotal nature of your claim that ALL people with mental illness NEVER get "better" over time - regardless of the fact that these conditions are not fully understood and are highly individualistic, that claim is patently untrue.

There is a difference between a person with depression, a person with bi-polar, and a person who is a manipulative asshole looking for attention. But I'm not about to go making the claim that any of those people can't change, won't change, or shouldn't seek help and support. I mean...wtf?

I'm not even going to go into the science of this stuff - there are literally environmental, social, emotional, and physical factors which can affect a person's behaviour and personality, for which there are both medicated and non-medicated approaches to treating, depending on whether the issue is hormonal/chemical, or something else - but essentially your entire stance is that all people who are not *inherently* nice are just naturally unpleasant people with problems who can't overcome them?



Fuck. Honestly, if that was directed at a forum member who had mental health issues, you'd be getting banned for breaching the code of conduct. As it is, you'll just have to live my distaste for your opinion. I'm sorry you've apparently had difficulty with people who have their own issues in your life, and that you've had trouble with your own issues, but seriously, don't go bashing everyone who has mental health problems and assuming that they're all the same - it's ignorant, prejudiced, and quite offensive/destructive for the people you're talking about.


/end rant.


That's not making a call one way or another for CY's decision here - it's not making a claim that being with someone who has mental health issues is easy, or that the girl in question is not just screwing around with him. That's a tough call to make in either case, and requires a good amount of consideration before going one way or the other.

Hit #1

See...we are who we are....I could only be myself and speak my opinion...you can only be yourself and chastise me for it.

Apply all the science and learned education you want...understanding something does not change its nature.

I did not mention my own problems to stir up sorrow or empathy but to establish that I am fully aware of what I am saying. I am messed up in my own way and its just the way it is...after 41 years I realize that I can change my outward behavior but whats inside me will stay the same.

I think you assume that I am judging people for their attributes but its actually the opposite. I accept them for their attributes good or bad. Do you accept me for mine?

Yes..you can medicate physical issues...but the underlying problem usually remains and removing the medication allows the problem to come back...that's not a cure. "Mental" problems caused by mental trauma has no real cure, a person can only come to terms with it. The best they can. Thinking that the damage can be "cured" with counseling or medication belittles their pain. Its similar to doing something bad and then thinking that apologizing really makes it OK.

My mother counsels abused children. I'm not talking about physically abused children but ABUSED children. Its the saddest thing in the world, really. It ages my mother almost every time I see her. Those poor kids, she will help them a bit but the damage will always be there, deep inside.

I accept that my opinion is offensive to you. I accept that in many people's eyes this makes me a piece of crap. But I am who I am..

[Daeg]

Briar King, on 11 January 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

I didn't take that post as being purposefully offensive myself.

If you are speaking about my post, I appreciate that. It wasn't meant to hurt anyone's feeling. It was an honest, if simplistic, observation from my experiences in the world.

[Studlock]

Hey know what doesn't help abused children and people mental health issues? Pushing your fucked up, ignorant world view upon them. Just because you want people to accept you're unwilling to change as a person (in exchange you'll what? Ignore the man with depression about to commit suicide because that's the way he is?) doesn't mean there aren't cures for mental health issues. This is coming from a person who was suffered through child abuse (and poverty and causal racism which lead to...), alcoholism (before I got out of my teens), and major episodes of depression (I'm now 22) your view point is not only worthless it's fucking toxic to people trying to get better. If you were around when I was recovering? I probably be dead. Hopelessness and cynisim is the last thing an abused person or a person with mental health disorder needs.

As for @CowboyYojimbo, I think it comes down to are you a strong enough person to handle the erratic behavior of a person with mental health issues? Do you like that person that much? Relationships, any kind of relationship, is hard without the added weight of mental health disorders.

[Daeg]

Studlock, on 11 January 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Hey know what doesn't help abused children and people mental health issues? Pushing your fucked up, ignorant world view upon them. Just because you want people to accept you're unwilling to change as a person (in exchange you'll what? Ignore the man with depression about to commit suicide because that's the way he is?) doesn't mean there aren't cures for mental health issues. This is coming from a person who was suffered through child abuse (and poverty and causal racism which lead to...), alcoholism (before I got out of my teens), and major episodes of depression (I'm now 22) your view point is not only worthless it's fucking toxic to people trying to get better. If you were around when I was recovering? I probably be dead. Hopelessness and cynisim is the last thing an abused person or a person with mental health disorder needs.

As for @CowboyYojimbo, I think it comes down to are you a strong enough person to handle the erratic behavior of a person with mental health issues? Do you like that person that much? Relationships, any kind of relationship, is hard without the added weight of mental health disorders.

Hit #2

Ahhh, your story sounds familiar...I started drugs and alcohol at 13...instant addict...abandoned by real father...step father with a terrible temper...parents married and divorced 3 times each...attempted suicide.

After 2 dui's and some jail time, I quit drinking at 22 and have been sober for 19 years.

I am honest enough to admit this though. The weakness that led me to drinking and drugs is still in me. I have quit the bad habits, but I am still weak. I must always be on guard or I will end up where I was before. Changed on the outside but the same on the inside.

My fucked up view on the world is far from ignorant. In fact, its based on real world experience, not some crap I read in a book. And its not just based on my own life or the negatives I've seen in others. You think my viewpoint is worthless? Maybe, buts mine and its EARNED. When I turn 60, I may understand the world in a whole different way, but at 41, this is my opinion.

Anyone who has had more than 1 child (and im sure many others who have never had children) understands that people are born different and trying to change them is an exercise in futility.

[King Lear]

Don't worry guys, apparently Daeg's life experience > everyone else's

Some people don't get out okay, but for those that do, you've done them a terrible disservice with that comment Daeg. Belief that nothing will ever change and that you're permanently fucked if you've had a hard life and have mental health issues is probably the single least helpful thing you can do for anyone currently fighting their demons, short of lobotomising and institutionalising them 19th century style. You may have given up on yourself Daeg, as well as the people around you, but you can't serious expect not to be challenged on this, not when other people have gone through similarly awful experiences and fought tooth and nail to come out the other side as fucking amazing human beings.

So you can add me as hit #3 if it makes you feel better, but I'm not going to give up on my friends and family, and I'm not going to give up on myself just because of one sad sack on the internet. You can proclaim all you want that you didn't mean to be offensive, but that's not going to change how offensive your comments are. You might think that it's "just your opinion" but it's an opinion that can directly harm people who come into contact with it.

So like Silencer and Studlock, I'm firmly on the NOPE side of your opinion.


On thread topic, and slightly related to the above, what's with the current rampant anti-intellectualism? Theses people aer coming out of the woodwork EVERYWHERE. It's like a bunch of them have gone "New Years Resolution: stop believing in science because reasons".

This post has been edited by King Lear: 11 January 2014 - 09:48 AM

[Tsundoku]

For people who apparently preach tolerance you're a surprisingly close-minded lot on occasion. So am I, but I don't pretend otherwise.

Surely being tolerant means putting up with ALL ideas, not just the ones you agree with? I myself am NOT a massively tolerant man (big surprise!), I have my limits on what particular bullshit (IMHO of course) I won't put up with.

Daeg expressed their views politely and gave reasons for it, and you jumped down their throat faster than a a bunch of feminazis who just had a man tell them "hey, we're not all that bad, you know".

I happen to agree to a point. I think a person CAN change, but the odds of a massive shift (say all the way along the scale from saint to sinner, or the other way) are so fucking remote as to make the exceptions to the rule notable. Which is why we celebrate when sinners become saints, and decry the opposite. It's easier of course for smaller shifts along the scale, but IMHO and life experience the rule in general holds true. Arseholes are arseholes, good people are good people, and the vast majority of us who are neither - or varied proportions of both - fit nicely in between on the bell curve.

Oh, and BTW, when was the last time you saw someone genuinely cured of a medically diagnosed mental illness? I'm not talking the occasional cases of the blues which gets mistaken for depression (and over medicated) these days, I'm talking the real deal. Bipolar, paranoid schizophrenia, the works.

Of course, if you hook up with 1000 crazy chicks, 1 of them may change, but the odds say you're wasting your time. And to hell with the PC drivel we all get force fed these days.

Therefore IMHO, ON THE WHOLE, or IN GENERAL (if you prefer,) people don't change - they just learn to cope/hide it better with experience and help.

As to the current anti-intellectualism, I have no firm idea. I think in part it's a reaction to the perceived smugness of the latte-sippers, like a sort of Luddite celebration of the "everyman" who does his job, believes in Gawd-uh and guns, and does what he's told by his "betters". As opposed to the liberal ivory-tower types whose lack of real-world experience created "all the current problems".
As to where it started, maybe it's all funded by the Republicans, who love nothing better than an ignorant population of sheep? Easier to fleece.

EDIT: also, back to work on Tuesday. Well, shit.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 11 January 2014 - 11:03 AM

[Daeg]

King Lear, on 11 January 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Don't worry guys, apparently Daeg's life experience > everyone else's

Some people don't get out okay, but for those that do, you've done them a terrible disservice with that comment Daeg. Belief that nothing will ever change and that you're permanently fucked if you've had a hard life and have mental health issues is probably the single least helpful thing you can do for anyone currently fighting their demons, short of lobotomising and institutionalising them 19th century style. You may have given up on yourself Daeg, as well as the people around you, but you can't serious expect not to be challenged on this, not when other people have gone through similarly awful experiences and fought tooth and nail to come out the other side as fucking amazing human beings.

So you can add me as hit #3 if it makes you feel better, but I'm not going to give up on my friends and family, and I'm not going to give up on myself just because of one sad sack on the internet. You can proclaim all you want that you didn't mean to be offensive, but that's not going to change how offensive your comments are. You might think that it's "just your opinion" but it's an opinion that can directly harm people who come into contact with it.

So like Silencer and Studlock, I'm firmly on the NOPE side of your opinion.


On thread topic, and slightly related to the above, what's with the current rampant anti-intellectualism? Theses people aer coming out of the woodwork EVERYWHERE. It's like a bunch of them have gone "New Years Resolution: stop believing in science because reasons".

Hit #3

I never said that medication or counseling wouldn't help minimize the behavorial effect of an illness. I never said that people should not try to get some relief from the issues effecting them.

I said that people are who they are and that doesn't change.

If, like myself, someone is an alcoholic, they will always be an alcoholic. They might stop drinking and have a somewhat normal life, but they will always be an alcoholic and 1 step away from going back to the nightmare that comes with it.

If a person has a mental illness that tends to cause them to be violent, it can be medicated. However, the people around them should never forget the danger if that person should stop taking their meds.

If a person beats his wife/kids, the chances of him ever being completely trustworthy again is very low.

If a child molester moves into your neighborhood ( and I believe this is a mental illness more than a sexual deviation) who has been to prison and counseling, do you trust him when your kids are out in the yard and he's walking down the street?

If someone has been violated and you enter a relationship with that person, the violation will be part of that relationship to one degree or another for the entire life of the relationship. You should know that and accept it before you enter the relationship.

What makes you think I've given up on life? I have a wife and 4 kids, although only 3 live with me. I am successful at work. I coach my 8 year old daughters' soccer team. I have close friends who think i'm an OK guy. We own cars and a house. BUT I am an alcoholic and a drug addict. Nothing will ever change that.

If you have problems and think i'm saying that you should give up then you have misunderstood me. I am saying that you can accept those problems, because they are part of you and probably always will be. Once you accept that, remember that you can never go back to the habits (or stop taking your meds) that have brought you to this terrible place. If you're not ready to accept it, then relapse (or not taking meds) is likely to be in your future.

If a person has an illness of this nature, it is their responsibility to inform a prospective mate about their issue somewhat early in a relationship. The reason is simple, because the illness is a part of that person and should be disclosed so the mate can make an educated decision.

I am not anti intellectual. Understanding what causes mental illness is one thing but using that knowledge to deny its nature is another. Understanding something does not change its nature.

What I am anti about is this, using so-called great understanding to dismiss my opinions. People calling me ignorant because my opinion does not agree with theirs. So if I was only as educated as you I wouldn't have the same opinion? If only I went to the same school then I wouldn't be expressing my horrendous world views?

[Daeg]

Sombra, on 11 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

For people who apparently preach tolerance you're a surprisingly close-minded lot on occasion. So am I, but I don't pretend otherwise.

Surely being tolerant means putting up with ALL ideas, not just the ones you agree with? I myself am NOT a massively tolerant man (big surprise!), I have my limits on what particular bullshit (IMHO of course) I won't put up with.

Daeg expressed their views politely and gave reasons for it, and you jumped down their throat faster than a a bunch of feminazis who just had a man tell them "hey, we're not all that bad, you know".

I happen to agree to a point. I think a person CAN change, but the odds of a massive shift (say all the way along the scale from saint to sinner, or the other way) are so fucking remote as to make the exceptions to the rule notable. Which is why we celebrate when sinners become saints, and decry the opposite. It's easier of course for smaller shifts along the scale, but IMHO and life experience the rule in general holds true. Arseholes are arseholes, good people are good people, and the vast majority of us who are neither - or varied proportions of both - fit nicely in between on the bell curve.

Oh, and BTW, when was the last time you saw someone genuinely cured of a medically diagnosed mental illness? I'm not talking the occasional cases of the blues which gets mistaken for depression (and over medicated) these days, I'm talking the real deal. Bipolar, paranoid schizophrenia, the works.

Of course, if you hook up with 1000 crazy chicks, 1 of them may change, but the odds say you're wasting your time. And to hell with the PC drivel we all get force fed these days.

Therefore IMHO, ON THE WHOLE, or IN GENERAL (if you prefer,) people don't change - they just learn to cope/hide it better with experience and help.

As to the current anti-intellectualism, I have no firm idea. I think in part it's a reaction to the perceived smugness of the latte-sippers, like a sort of Luddite celebration of the "everyman" who does his job, believes in Gawd-uh and guns, and does what he's told by his "betters". As opposed to the liberal ivory-tower types whose lack of real-world experience created "all the current problems".
As to where it started, maybe it's all funded by the Republicans, who love nothing better than an ignorant population of sheep? Easier to fleece.

EDIT: also, back to work on Tuesday. Well, shit.

I appreciate your honesty considering the reception its likely to get.

[HiddenOne]

Somebody move this convo to the Discussion thread

I normally stay out of these things, but I feel that I would be remiss in withholding my opinion. I have no wish to argue or inflame.

Cowboy - avoid this relationship. Nothing good will come of it. I speak from experience and do not counsel lightly for you to back away.

Daeg - I understand your viewpoint intimately and agree. You have my support, and respect for moving out of a life situation that destroys many people.


I expect those of you who are attacking Daeg may be unable to appreciate his perspective. I'm pretty sure you're all fairly young, perhaps few serious responsibilities, still lingering in the glow of academe. Daeg has been fighting a war as long as you have been alive. He has the right to voice an opinion and attempt to share the benefit of experience. I am surprised at the level of disrespect pointed his way. You guys are too smart for that, as I have seen first hand in our previous interactions. He has actually provided a cogent insight that demonstrates his grasp of his own reality, and attempted to share this with us all, and made himself vulnerable in the process.

[Illuyankas]

There was a reply to Sombra here but it was needlessly antagonistic so I'll just say using the word feminazi in a serious fashion to describe people who aren't on tumblr is extremely stupid and that I think he probably voted for Tony Abbott. Yeah, I said it.

Daeg, on 11 January 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit #3

I never said that medication or counseling wouldn't help minimize the behavorial effect of an illness. I never said that people should not try to get some relief from the issues effecting them.

I said that people are who they are and that doesn't change.

If, like myself, someone is an alcoholic, they will always be an alcoholic. They might stop drinking and have a somewhat normal life, but they will always be an alcoholic and 1 step away from going back to the nightmare that comes with it.

If a person has a mental illness that tends to cause them to be violent, it can be medicated. However, the people around them should never forget the danger if that person should stop taking their meds.

If a person beats his wife/kids, the chances of him ever being completely trustworthy again is very low.

If a child molester moves into your neighborhood ( and I believe this is a mental illness more than a sexual deviation) who has been to prison and counseling, do you trust him when your kids are out in the yard and he's walking down the street?

If someone has been violated and you enter a relationship with that person, the violation will be part of that relationship to one degree or another for the entire life of the relationship. You should know that and accept it before you enter the relationship.

What makes you think I've given up on life? I have a wife and 4 kids, although only 3 live with me. I am successful at work. I coach my 8 year old daughters' soccer team. I have close friends who think i'm an OK guy. We own cars and a house. BUT I am an alcoholic and a drug addict. Nothing will ever change that.

If you have problems and think i'm saying that you should give up then you have misunderstood me. I am saying that you can accept those problems, because they are part of you and probably always will be. Once you accept that, remember that you can never go back to the habits (or stop taking your meds) that have brought you to this terrible place. If you're not ready to accept it, then relapse (or not taking meds) is likely to be in your future.

If a person has an illness of this nature, it is their responsibility to inform a prospective mate about their issue somewhat early in a relationship. The reason is simple, because the illness is a part of that person and should be disclosed so the mate can make an educated decision.

I am not anti intellectual. Understanding what causes mental illness is one thing but using that knowledge to deny its nature is another. Understanding something does not change its nature.

What I am anti about is this, using so-called great understanding to dismiss my opinions. People calling me ignorant because my opinion does not agree with theirs. So if I was only as educated as you I wouldn't have the same opinion? If only I went to the same school then I wouldn't be expressing my horrendous world views?

People are more than their issues, especially you - you're a dad and a husband, not a drunk and a druggie, even if you feel like it's a single step to get there again.

I do want to take a few of these lines here:

"If a person has a mental an illness that tends to cause them to be violent, it can be medicated. However, the people around them should never forget the danger if that person should stop taking their meds." Note there is no change whether or not it's physical or mental in nature, here. Why castigate the one and not the other? Exactly.

"If someone has been violated and you enter a relationship with that person, the violation will be part of that relationship to one degree or another for the entire life of the relationship. You should know that and accept it before you enter the relationship. is up to them to divulge to you once they feel comfortable enough with you to talk about it." This is probably the part I've got the biggest beef with, the idea what before you enter a relationship with a woman (sometimes man but overwhelmingly statistically) who's been assaulted you should, what, give them a questionaire listing their previous sexual traumas? Really? It's none of your business, dude. You're not marked for life by such a horrible experience, you don't get a big flashing ABUSE VICTIM badge on your forehead you have to show dates (otherwise you'd see it on the heads of every third woman you see, and RAPE VICTIM on every sixth - and I'm not exaggerating those figures at all) and I can ironclad guarantee there are women you've been involved with who've suffered the same if not worse without you even guessing.

The anti-intellectualism part is mostly cause we've spent a lot of time reading about studies done by extensively trained professionals with, on and for numerous demographics regarding things like mental health from numerous angles, collecting and investigating stories and anecdotes and data from literally thousands of patients and people just like yourself, collating and comparing the information gathered about all the different ways things like this are treated successfully or not and seeing the accepted most efficient methods of treatment and help being isolated and recommended to everybody suffering so. Is it so bad to view all that with greater weight than your single viewpoint?

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 11 January 2014 - 08:16 PM

[King Lear]

HiddenOne, on 11 January 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Somebody move this convo to the Discussion thread

I normally stay out of these things, but I feel that I would be remiss in withholding my opinion. I have no wish to argue or inflame.

Cowboy - avoid this relationship. Nothing good will come of it. I speak from experience and do not counsel lightly for you to back away.

Daeg - I understand your viewpoint intimately and agree. You have my support, and respect for moving out of a life situation that destroys many people.


I expect those of you who are attacking Daeg may be unable to appreciate his perspective. I'm pretty sure you're all fairly young, perhaps few serious responsibilities, still lingering in the glow of academe. Daeg has been fighting a war as long as you have been alive. He has the right to voice an opinion and attempt to share the benefit of experience. I am surprised at the level of disrespect pointed his way. You guys are too smart for that, as I have seen first hand in our previous interactions. He has actually provided a cogent insight that demonstrates his grasp of his own reality, and attempted to share this with us all, and made himself vulnerable in the process.

Oh fuck that. Since when do you have to be 40 to be have the level of shit being discussed here in your life to deal with? Daeg can have his opinion all he wants and if that's his life then he's welcome to it. But I'm not sure why you, Sombra and he seem to think that it's okay for him to characterise the life of everyone else who has shit to deal with in the same way he characterises his own (in the form of giving advice about people with mental health issues), and then complain that people aren't respecting his opinion. Seriously, fuck that. Why is it okay for Daeg to say

Quote

I'm in my second marriage and I can tell you one thing for sure "mental" issues do not get better with time. The more the "stronger" one does to help, the less the "challenged" one steps up.

and not okay for anyone to turn around and say, "no, it's not like that for me, and I find that offensive"? Maybe for you it's just an opinion, but I personally don't appreciate being called "challenged" or have it implied that I'm unable to take care of myself, or function in a relationship because I have a mental illness and I'm damn sure that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

And before anyone pipes up with the 'you're taking this personally', yes, yes I am. I may not have the world's most debilitating mental illnesses (most of the time anyway, cue sarcastic laughter), but if you're going to talk generally about people with "mental" issues, guess what, you're talking TO them as well.

[Daeg]

Illuyankas, on 11 January 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

There was a reply to Sombra here but it was needlessly antagonistic so I'll just say using the word feminazi in a serious fashion to describe people who aren't on tumblr is extremely stupid and that I think he probably voted for Tony Abbott. Yeah, I said it.

Daeg, on 11 January 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit #3

I never said that medication or counseling wouldn't help minimize the behavorial effect of an illness. I never said that people should not try to get some relief from the issues effecting them.

I said that people are who they are and that doesn't change.

If, like myself, someone is an alcoholic, they will always be an alcoholic. They might stop drinking and have a somewhat normal life, but they will always be an alcoholic and 1 step away from going back to the nightmare that comes with it.

If a person has a mental illness that tends to cause them to be violent, it can be medicated. However, the people around them should never forget the danger if that person should stop taking their meds.

If a person beats his wife/kids, the chances of him ever being completely trustworthy again is very low.

If a child molester moves into your neighborhood ( and I believe this is a mental illness more than a sexual deviation) who has been to prison and counseling, do you trust him when your kids are out in the yard and he's walking down the street?

If someone has been violated and you enter a relationship with that person, the violation will be part of that relationship to one degree or another for the entire life of the relationship. You should know that and accept it before you enter the relationship.

What makes you think I've given up on life? I have a wife and 4 kids, although only 3 live with me. I am successful at work. I coach my 8 year old daughters' soccer team. I have close friends who think i'm an OK guy. We own cars and a house. BUT I am an alcoholic and a drug addict. Nothing will ever change that.

If you have problems and think i'm saying that you should give up then you have misunderstood me. I am saying that you can accept those problems, because they are part of you and probably always will be. Once you accept that, remember that you can never go back to the habits (or stop taking your meds) that have brought you to this terrible place. If you're not ready to accept it, then relapse (or not taking meds) is likely to be in your future.

If a person has an illness of this nature, it is their responsibility to inform a prospective mate about their issue somewhat early in a relationship. The reason is simple, because the illness is a part of that person and should be disclosed so the mate can make an educated decision.

I am not anti intellectual. Understanding what causes mental illness is one thing but using that knowledge to deny its nature is another. Understanding something does not change its nature.

What I am anti about is this, using so-called great understanding to dismiss my opinions. People calling me ignorant because my opinion does not agree with theirs. So if I was only as educated as you I wouldn't have the same opinion? If only I went to the same school then I wouldn't be expressing my horrendous world views?

People are more than their issues, especially you - you're a dad and a husband, not a drunk and a druggie, even if you feel like it's a single step to get there again.

I do want to take a few of these lines here:

"If a person has a mental an illness that tends to cause them to be violent, it can be medicated. However, the people around them should never forget the danger if that person should stop taking their meds." Note there is no change whether or not it's physical or mental in nature, here. Why castigate the one and not the other? Exactly.

"If someone has been violated and you enter a relationship with that person, the violation will be part of that relationship to one degree or another for the entire life of the relationship. You should know that and accept it before you enter the relationship. is up to them to divulge to you once they feel comfortable enough with you to talk about it." This is probably the part I've got the biggest beef with, the idea what before you enter a relationship with a woman (sometimes man but overwhelmingly statistically) who's been assaulted you should, what, give them a questionaire listing their previous sexual traumas? Really? It's none of your business, dude. You're not marked for life by such a horrible experience, you don't get a big flashing ABUSE VICTIM badge on your forehead you have to show dates (otherwise you'd see it on the heads of every third woman you see, and RAPE VICTIM on every sixth - and I'm not exaggerating those figures at all) and I can ironclad guarantee there are women you've been involved with who've suffered the same if not worse without you even guessing.

The anti-intellectualism part is mostly cause we've spent a lot of time reading about studies done by extensively trained professionals with, on and for numerous demographics regarding things like mental health from numerous angles, collecting and investigating stories and anecdotes and data from literally thousands of patients and people just like yourself, collating and comparing the information gathered about all the different ways things like this are treated successfully or not and seeing the accepted most efficient methods of treatment and help being isolated and recommended to everybody suffering so. Is it so bad to view all that with greater weight than your single viewpoint?

I think the comment about femnazis was pure humor, if i would guess.

You had some points. The first one I didn't understand your response. Not trying to be a smartass..I just don't understand what you're trying to say.

The second. I have dated several women with violations in their past. Some revealed relatively early and some I suspected and asked a few questions which brought it to light. No one said anything about a rape badge and to be honest I think you threw that in for effect more than thinking that I was implying it. I am talking about honesty. Mutual respect. If 2 people are getting very close and one has something in their past that effects their daily life, it is only fair to reveal to some degree to their mate, their situation. Im not trying to diminish the victims pain, in fact, I'm validating what a horrible and life changing thing this can be.

Its fine to put more weight into your thousands of studies and reports. Unless, you are using them to diminish or minimize my opinion and to tell me what a terrible person I am.

[Daeg]

King Lear, on 11 January 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

HiddenOne, on 11 January 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Somebody move this convo to the Discussion thread

I normally stay out of these things, but I feel that I would be remiss in withholding my opinion. I have no wish to argue or inflame.

Cowboy - avoid this relationship. Nothing good will come of it. I speak from experience and do not counsel lightly for you to back away.

Daeg - I understand your viewpoint intimately and agree. You have my support, and respect for moving out of a life situation that destroys many people.


I expect those of you who are attacking Daeg may be unable to appreciate his perspective. I'm pretty sure you're all fairly young, perhaps few serious responsibilities, still lingering in the glow of academe. Daeg has been fighting a war as long as you have been alive. He has the right to voice an opinion and attempt to share the benefit of experience. I am surprised at the level of disrespect pointed his way. You guys are too smart for that, as I have seen first hand in our previous interactions. He has actually provided a cogent insight that demonstrates his grasp of his own reality, and attempted to share this with us all, and made himself vulnerable in the process.

Oh fuck that. Since when do you have to be 40 to be have the level of shit being discussed here in your life to deal with? Daeg can have his opinion all he wants and if that's his life then he's welcome to it. But I'm not sure why you, Sombra and he seem to think that it's okay for him to characterise the life of everyone else who has shit to deal with in the same way he characterises his own (in the form of giving advice about people with mental health issues), and then complain that people aren't respecting his opinion. Seriously, fuck that. Why is it okay for Daeg to say

Quote

I'm in my second marriage and I can tell you one thing for sure "mental" issues do not get better with time. The more the "stronger" one does to help, the less the "challenged" one steps up.

and not okay for anyone to turn around and say, "no, it's not like that for me, and I find that offensive"? Maybe for you it's just an opinion, but I personally don't appreciate being called "challenged" or have it implied that I'm unable to take care of myself, or function in a relationship because I have a mental illness and I'm damn sure that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

And before anyone pipes up with the 'you're taking this personally', yes, yes I am. I may not have the world's most debilitating mental illnesses (most of the time anyway, cue sarcastic laughter), but if you're going to talk generally about people with "mental" issues, guess what, you're talking TO them as well.

First off..my quote of "mental" issues was referring to cowboys description of his friend having trouble and using pot to medicate. Most of that response was a direct response to his particular situation.

The generalizations I made later, I stand by. Do you understand? I hear what you have to say, I accept your opinion, and I stand by what I've said.

[Una]

I think there is a wide range in what constitutes "mental issues". Daeg's response was to address a very specific circumstance where Cowboy was seeing a particular lady who has unspecified "mental issues", uses pot to self-medicate (appropriately or inappropriately, we can't really be sure), with a suspected history of being untruthful or evasive. The question is whether to continue to invest in this relationship. Daeg appears to be saying that in his experience, the whole constellation here spells Trouble, and I don't think he's wrong.

I also think it's fair to say that relationships with such people are full of unique challenges that people without significant mental issues, be they organic or personality-based, do not have to face. I include the word "significant" because we all, of course, have our own issues and just want to be loved in spite of them. And we probably deserve to be. That's what makes this such a challenge. Daeg outlines a prominent feature of the relationship dynamics inherent when one partner is mentally not entirely "stable" and the other is (mostly). To ignore that feature is naive. And potentially dangerous, depending on the nature of the issue. And you know what? Not everyone is willing, or even equipped, to take that on. I personally think it's OK to admit that. It doesn't make you a bad person if you simply aren't prepared to be a martyr to someone else's problems. In fact, I think if it were socially acceptable to admit that, there would be a lot fewer women staying and being beaten up by their alcoholic husbands, for example, still saying, "but it's not his fault. He's just depressed. He's sick. And if I give up on him that makes me a bad person." But that's sort of veering into slightly different territory than the original post. Or is it? We really don't know what Cowboy's lady friend is hiding. If he wishes to proceed, I believe he should do so with extreme caution and keep his eyes open. But if he were to cut and run, I wouldn't think less of him for it.
...
Oh. Ok. I reread some of people's objections. There seems to be some disagreement over the statement, "one thing for sure "mental" issues do not get better with time." People seem to be interpreting this in various ways. Some people seem to believe he means "they will never get better at all, ever", which I agree is not exactly true. My take is that they do not get better with time on their own. That is, if someone has a dysfunctional personality and you are hoping that he or she will just mellow over time if you hang in there long enough, you will most likely be disappointed, that much is true. Although if the person recognizes that there is a problem and puts in the effort and gets excellent therapy, there can be improvement, depending on the dysfunction. But it's important to recognize that it is often not within your power to make that happen. If someone has an episodic illness, like a bipolar disorder, there may indeed be long stretches of time when he or she is quite well, but the possibility always exists that there could be a relapse. And it really depends on how well the person tends to respond to medical treatment. So that's why I'm not all that offended by his statement.

I'm finding this discussion fascinating.

[Daeg]

Una, on 11 January 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

I think there is a wide range in what constitutes "mental issues". Daeg's response was to address a very specific circumstance where Cowboy was seeing a particular lady who has unspecified "mental issues", uses pot to self-medicate (appropriately or inappropriately, we can't really be sure), with a suspected history of being untruthful or evasive. The question is whether to continue to invest in this relationship. Daeg appears to be saying that in his experience, the whole constellation here spells Trouble, and I don't think he's wrong.

I also think it's fair to say that relationships with such people are full of unique challenges that people without significant mental issues, be they organic or personality-based, do not have to face. I include the word "significant" because we all, of course, have our own issues and just want to be loved in spite of them. And we probably deserve to be. That's what makes this such a challenge. Daeg outlines a prominent feature of the relationship dynamics inherent when one partner is mentally not entirely "stable" and the other is (mostly). To ignore that feature is naive. And potentially dangerous, depending on the nature of the issue. And you know what? Not everyone is willing, or even equipped, to take that on. I personally think it's OK to admit that. It doesn't make you a bad person if you simply aren't prepared to be a martyr to someone else's problems. In fact, I think if it were socially acceptable to admit that, there would be a lot fewer women staying and being beaten up by their alcoholic husbands, for example, still saying, "but it's not his fault. He's just depressed. He's sick. And if I give up on him that makes me a bad person." But that's sort of veering into slightly different territory than the original post. Or is it? We really don't know what Cowboy's lady friend is hiding. If he wishes to proceed, I believe he should do so with extreme caution and keep his eyes open. But if he were to cut and run, I wouldn't think less of him for it.
...
Oh. Ok. I reread some of people's objections. There seems to be some disagreement over the statement, "one thing for sure "mental" issues do not get better with time." People seem to be interpreting this in various ways. Some people seem to believe he means "they will never get better at all, ever", which I agree is not exactly true. My take is that they do not get better with time on their own. That is, if someone has a dysfunctional personality and you are hoping that he or she will just mellow over time if you hang in there long enough, you will most likely be disappointed, that much is true. Although if the person recognizes that there is a problem and puts in the effort and gets excellent therapy, there can be improvement, depending on the dysfunction. But it's important to recognize that it is often not within your power to make that happen. If someone has an episodic illness, like a bipolar disorder, there may indeed be long stretches of time when he or she is quite well, but the possibility always exists that there could be a relapse. And it really depends on how well the person tends to respond to medical treatment. So that's why I'm not all that offended by his statement.

I'm finding this discussion fascinating.

Ummm..you are remarkably artriculate.

[Silencer]

Alright, this discussion is going to the DB.

@Una - the broad generalisation of what constitutes a "mental issue" is atrocious. If we lump PTSD, depression, bi-polar, complicated grief all in together, which is what is happening here, it is impossible and, yes, ignorant to talk about them all under the same umbrella.

Some of those? The ONLY way they get better is with time.

There is a massive and diverse range of conditions which are primarily physical in nature (serotonin imbalance, for example), and those which are primarily emotional/"mental"in nature. Each of these conditions can have parts of the other conditions as symptoms. E.g. you can end up with depression due either to a natural serotonin imbalance OR as a symptom of PTSD. Which means that the approach taken to treatment changes.

This is not a black-and-white issue. Treating it as anything less than incredibly complicated and highly individualistic is WRONG. That is why extrapolating personal experience to everyone is also wrong. That is why studies exist. That's what they're for.

If Daeg said "in my experience dealing with people who have issues is hard and they might never change",I doubt anyone would be up in arms. He didn't. He said "nobody ever truly changes -they are who they are, and will always be a second away from snapping". This is not only a BAD thing to say to people who are fighting with a mental illness (much like telling a person who is trying to regain the use of atrophied muscles that it can't be done is a bad thing), it's also a ludicrous and unfounded generalisation. Because it's been more or less proven to not be true by science.


Illy's post really hit the nail on the head there.

Making a statement about the situation cowboy is in based on his experience, with how difficult it can be? Fine. Making a destructive claim about all people with any form of illness, in a field this complex? Big fucking problem!

[Daeg]

Hey, I don't want any one to think I bailed but I need to spend the evening with my family. I'll be back in a few hours if anyone wants to ummmmm....discuss this more

[Silencer]

OP placeholder.