[tiam]

QuickTidal, on 28 February 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 27 February 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

Spoiler

I think they know they killed him off too early. Hes a pretty bad villain in the books designed to allow Sherlock to be killed off nobly but the skinny psycho Moriarty is a very good villain. I dont think it will a double bluff as theyve deviated from the books a fair bit anyway and would want to use Moriarty rather than snub the fans

Spoiler

Actually, they were just following suit with the books. Moriarty is introduced in THE FINAL PROBLEM where both he and Sherlock fall off the Reichenbach Falls to their apparent deaths. Sherlock comes back first, and later Moriarty does as well. So we've seen Sherlock on the show come back now (after S2 finale THE REICHENBACH FALL), and now they'll bring back Moriarty as well.

Spoiler

When does Moriarty come back in the books exactly? He only appears in Final Problem and is mentioned in a handful of others, some times anachronistically if thats the right word for it, and thats it. Hes created as a device to kill Sherlock with them both going over and Sherlock going out a hero which they reverse in the series. Unless hes appeared in the ones Conan Doyle didnt write then I am unsure of this return you speak of. Like he appears in Anthony Horowitzs House of Silk but thats set before Final Problem I think.

[D'rek]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 28 February 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 28 February 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 27 February 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

Spoiler

I think they know they killed him off too early. Hes a pretty bad villain in the books designed to allow Sherlock to be killed off nobly but the skinny psycho Moriarty is a very good villain. I dont think it will a double bluff as theyve deviated from the books a fair bit anyway and would want to use Moriarty rather than snub the fans

Spoiler

Actually, they were just following suit with the books. Moriarty is introduced in THE FINAL PROBLEM where both he and Sherlock fall off the Reichenbach Falls to their apparent deaths. Sherlock comes back first, and later Moriarty does as well. So we've seen Sherlock on the show come back now (after S2 finale THE REICHENBACH FALL), and now they'll bring back Moriarty as well.

Spoiler

When does Moriarty come back in the books exactly? He only appears in Final Problem and is mentioned in a handful of others, some times anachronistically if thats the right word for it, and thats it. Hes created as a device to kill Sherlock with them both going over and Sherlock going out a hero which they reverse in the series. Unless hes appeared in the ones Conan Doyle didnt write then I am unsure of this return you speak of. Like he appears in Anthony Horowitzs House of Silk but thats set before Final Problem I think.

Spoiler

I haven't read it, but I think I heard that after Reichenbach Falls there's a story where you think he's back but it turns out its one of his former lackeys impersonating him.

[QuickTidal]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 28 February 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Spoiler

When does Moriarty come back in the books exactly? He only appears in Final Problem and is mentioned in a handful of others, some times anachronistically if thats the right word for it, and thats it. Hes created as a device to kill Sherlock with them both going over and Sherlock going out a hero which they reverse in the series. Unless hes appeared in the ones Conan Doyle didnt write then I am unsure of this return you speak of. Like he appears in Anthony Horowitzs House of Silk but thats set before Final Problem I think.

Spoiler

I'm fairly sure the implication is that he's not gone, as he dominates Sherlock's memories for I think like 5 or 6 stories. I also thought the one story after the fact wasn't a prequel. My bad.

Still, what's so bad about bringing him back in the similar way to Sherlock on the show? Doyle didn't even want to resurrect Sherlock, the Reichenbach Fall was meant to be his actual death. It makes sense to me to bring back his greatest villain...and possibly like D'rek said as people impersonating him to take down the detective.

[tiam]

Spoiler

Thats what I mean when I said they killed off the best villain too early. The Valley of Fear I think was published afterwards and makes mention of Moriarty and Watosn said he knew about him. However this contradicts earlier stories where Watson finds out who he is in the Final Problem. There is some mention of Moriarty afterwards but very rarely. Its not an implication at all really.

I know Holmes was supposed to be killed at Reichanbach but the way Conan Doyle executes the resurrection story is very clumsy. Therefore it didnt bother me that the Sherlock resurrection in show wasnt fully explained as it neednt be to be canonical. However Moriarty was created to kill Sherlock and although hes described as Sherlocks greatest villain by Holmes himself hes actually not that fantastic a villain really. Sherlock sort of brings down his empire and he meets him at the Falls and charges him so that theyd both be killed. Sherlcok tosses him over the cliff and then has to deal with his henchman trying to drop rocks on him.

This post has been edited by NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition: 02 March 2014 - 12:20 AM

[Coco with marshmallows]

IT'S COMING BACK


linky

[Tiste Simeon]

Heck yes! So chuffed about this!

[QuickTidal]

HELLS yes! Gods, I love this show.

[Aptorian]

Just finished season 3.

Reading through this thread I wonder am I the only one who has problems with the three episode structure? And for that matter the payoff?

Spoiler

All the build up for an eventual pay-off has to be done in one episode. It sort of hurts the impact I feel. They kind of mitigated this with Moriarty by revealing him in the first season and disposing of him in the second but in the third I think it completely missed its mark with Magnusson.

I did not like neither the showdown with Moriarty or Magnusson. From my point of view there is a cognitive dissonance between the way Sherlock acts and behaves normally and when he faces these two. I get that they are extremely smart and abnormal but when the portray Sherlock Holmes at a loss for words or unable to make a decesion or adapt it just feels contrived. You can't show Sherlock as one moment being an inhuman supercomputer who can kill an entire terror cell and the next a defeated wreck. I get that Sherlock is very proud and full of himself but please. I need consistency.

I was disappointed by both Moriarty and Magnusson because in the end, their actual motivations and their actions are so... predictable. Magnusson is just a sadist who likes control. There is no more to him. Just a man who believes himself invulnerable because of the cards he holds. And Moriarty, who I actually suspected to just be a henchman of somebody more sinister, well he was just insane. How boring. I wanted somebody who could not just match Sherlocks intellect but who was also a Spider who was too smart to be baited that easily.

Also I think Watson should have snapped Magnussons neck. Not for a second do I believe John Watson wouldn't at least had rearranged Magnussons nose if he was flicked in the face by that pervert.

Eh. Right now I am hoping that Moriarties return is actually Sherlocks doing. As in Sherlock made that virus but who knows why. Or he's insane and has a split personality.

EDIT: Also no way MI6 or some other group wouldn't have found a way into Magnussons compound and discovered the truth about the vault ages ago. That's just silly.

This post has been edited by Aptabulous Maximus: 06 September 2014 - 10:42 PM

[QuickTidal]

Aptabulous Maximus, on 06 September 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Just finished season 3.

Reading through this thread I wonder am I the only one who has problems with the three episode structure? And for that matter the payoff?

Spoiler

All the build up for an eventual pay-off has to be done in one episode. It sort of hurts the impact I feel. They kind of mitigated this with Moriarty by revealing him in the first season and disposing of him in the second but in the third I think it completely missed its mark with Magnusson.

I did not like neither the showdown with Moriarty or Magnusson. From my point of view there is a cognitive dissonance between the way Sherlock acts and behaves normally and when he faces these two. I get that they are extremely smart and abnormal but when the portray Sherlock Holmes at a loss for words or unable to make a decesion or adapt it just feels contrived. You can't show Sherlock as one moment being an inhuman supercomputer who can kill an entire terror cell and the next a defeated wreck. I get that Sherlock is very proud and full of himself but please. I need consistency.

I was disappointed by both Moriarty and Magnusson because in the end, their actual motivations and their actions are so... predictable. Magnusson is just a sadist who likes control. There is no more to him. Just a man who believes himself invulnerable because of the cards he holds. And Moriarty, who I actually suspected to just be a henchman of somebody more sinister, well he was just insane. How boring. I wanted somebody who could not just match Sherlocks intellect but who was also a Spider who was too smart to be baited that easily.

Also I think Watson should have snapped Magnussons neck. Not for a second do I believe John Watson wouldn't at least had rearranged Magnussons nose if he was flicked in the face by that pervert.

Eh. Right now I am hoping that Moriarties return is actually Sherlocks doing. As in Sherlock made that virus but who knows why. Or he's insane and has a split personality.

EDIT: Also no way MI6 or some other group wouldn't have found a way into Magnussons compound and discovered the truth about the vault ages ago. That's just silly.

You know all those times where we tell you you're nuts and you think too much Apt? This is TOTALLY one of those times.

[D'rek]

I pretty much agree with Apt

[Morgoth]

I've never accused Apt of thinking too much.

[Andorion]

So did anyone see the Abominable Bride?

[bubba]

Yes, I have watched it a few time. I liked it.

[QuickTidal]

The Abominable Bride is really good...except...

Spoiler

The whole shtick of "this takes place in Sherlock's Mind Palace" works the first time they reveal it 1/2-3/4 of the way into the episode...but then it jumps back into it like two more times...at which point the effect of it no longer exists, and as such I'm like "None of this really matters because I've already been told this is all in his head and it's just him trying to come to grips with a returned Moriarty in his time" and that removes any of the tension that resided in the ep.

Otherwise I enjoyed. But that was a big problem for me.

[Andorion]

It took me a little bit of time to grasp what was going on, first hint was the morgue, where they were wondering about being alive after a headshot, and I was thinking "nice reference" then it slowly started to sink in.

Overall I would say it was an excellent episode, with the usual superlative writing and acting. Cumberbatch is magnificent as 19th Century Holmes.

But this just leads to my usual questions:

Are they EVER going to actually explain how Sherlock lived? I believe a reference was made to a substituted body, but Watson examined Sherlock right after the Fall.

Moriarty is dead. but he is back. So not Moriarty the person, but possibly Moriarty as an idea, a plan, a scheme, that needs to be stopped?

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 28 March 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

It took me a little bit of time to grasp what was going on, first hint was the morgue, where they were wondering about being alive after a headshot, and I was thinking "nice reference" then it slowly started to sink in.

Overall I would say it was an excellent episode, with the usual superlative writing and acting. Cumberbatch is magnificent as 19th Century Holmes.

But this just leads to my usual questions:

Are they EVER going to actually explain how Sherlock lived? I believe a reference was made to a substituted body, but Watson examined Sherlock right after the Fall.

Moriarty is dead. but he is back. So not Moriarty the person, but possibly Moriarty as an idea, a plan, a scheme, that needs to be stopped?

Substituted body for sure. I don't think Moffat will ever let out the "how" of it...not his style if Doctor Who is any indication. He likes ambiguity so you can't see through his plot holes. LOL

Moriarty, though Holmes' nemesis, only really appeared in the one story he was introduced in and he died in that as well. So chances are high that he IS indeed dead. In the original narrative, he has a "gang" that did stuff after his death that had to be stopped which he put into place beforehand...I feel we are now seeing things come into play that Moriarty set in motion before his death. Sherlock had to go through this whole thing to realize that OF course he is dead, but something else is in play that he must defeat.

[Aptorian]

Season 4 trailer:



It's just a trailer but if the vibe is anything to go by, I don't like the direction they've taken the show.

In the first 2 seasons they created an image of Holmes as a walking super computer, a person of pure cold logic, a sociopath who really only acted out of curiosity and boredom. In essence a master of his domain. Then in season 3 they started to create cracks in Holmes persona, they made him fallible and honestly pretty dumb towards the end.

Now they're showing him fucking quivering? Unless the plot is him being dosed with drugs I really don't like this angle. Yeah, Moriarty is scary, but that just makes it exciting for this version of Sherlock Holmes.

Anyway, anyone wonder what is up with Moriarty? He is dead. I doubt he got better, so is it one last game planned in case of his passing or is someone using him?