[Upwood]

Karsa ends up at the CG realm, overturns a bit the CG hat, kills Rhulad and then with a "big smile on his face" goes away after a backhandslap to Withal.

Is it not a realm of the CG? So shouldn't he be much stronger in it?

Why did Karsa not kill the CG or even tried to kill him? I don't think he has that much knowledge about him and he get's normally pretty angry if somebody wants to use him.

[Aptorian]

Because Erikson loves to do the opposite of what you expect is the read answer to this question I think.

You could make some arguments about karsa having no beef with the Crippled God and that he only wanted to prove he could kill Rhulad, something about not wanting to kill a cripple, etc. Really, it is just bullshit.

I hated that ending.

He could at least have given us a proper fight between Karsa and Rhulad.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

the point was proving that Rhulad was not a proper fight for Karsa, The Crippled God was not a 'real threat', in the story other elements are always much more devastating than anything the Crippled God can conjure, Karsa knew this and didn't need to act. He was making a point. karsa always makes a point.

Spoiler

Why kill the K'Chain with his bare hands an not his GIANT SWORD? Why drag two Deregoth heads behind his horse? Christ killing Fener was making a grand point!

I think that Karsa is not the right character to act against the Crippled God, he had no reason to really. Karsa wants things for his race for his people, for all subjugated citizens of 'civilisation' he so hates, the Crippled God is not trying to enslave everyone, merely trying to forge a corner of the world for himself I think. I know he enslaved Rhulad and in turn enslaved the Edur, Karsa fixed this, removed his seat of power and left, leaving him to rot in his lacking power. Karsa makes a bigger point in not killing him than he ever could have done killing him.

Also a book that does not draw love and hate is a failed book, if people care enough to bring hate to bare, then the book was damn good and it succeeded in drawing the reader in

[Aptorian]

Yeah, the only problem is that the forshadowing of "The Emperor of a Thousand Deaths" from HOC and what we see Rhulad doing after only a handful of deaths, is completely at odds with the fight we get in Reapers Gale. It's so fucking anti-climactic.

I don't mind Karsa winning. I do how ever resent that Rhulad did not even pose a challenge. He's been fighting and dying for what has probably been a decade in the time that passes between Midnight Tides and Reapers Gale.

It's bullshit.

[Abyss]

Upwood, on 18 December 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Karsa ends up at the CG realm, overturns a bit the CG hat, kills Rhulad and then with a "big smile on his face" goes away after a backhandslap to Withal.

Is it not a realm of the CG? So shouldn't he be much stronger in it?

Why did Karsa not kill the CG or even tried to kill him? I don't think he has that much knowledge about him and he get's normally pretty angry if somebody wants to use him.

Karsa killed Rhulad and killed him again in the CG's realm to end the threat to the uncivilized tribesmen he met in TB.
He also did this to free Rhulad because Karsa doesn't like anyone being in chains.
That is also why he didn't kill the CG... because Karsa understood, in part because he himself was chained by the CG via the Rock Faces, that the CG is himself a victim.

The CG was vulnerable to Karsa because he had aspected him himself via the Rockfaces. Sure he has power in his pocket warren, but striking at Karsa would have been like striking himself. that's diferent from say, what happened when QB was in the tent in MoI.

Not Brent Weeks, on 18 December 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

...He could at least have given us a proper fight between Karsa and Rhulad.

Not Brent Weeks, on 18 December 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yeah, the only problem is that the forshadowing of "The Emperor of a Thousand Deaths" from HOC and what we see Rhulad doing after only a handful of deaths, is completely at odds with the fight we get in Reapers Gale. It's so fucking anti-climactic.

I don't mind Karsa winning. I do how ever resent that Rhulad did not even pose a challenge. He's been fighting and dying for what has probably been a decade in the time that passes between Midnight Tides and Reapers Gale.

It's bullshit.

You got a proper fight. It went down exactly the way it was supposed to. Karsa was that much stronger, faster and smarter than Rhulad, but if he had not had a plan to strike at the CG, he would have just killed Rhulad a whole lot and eventually died himself the way every other champion did.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

i see your annoyance and I agree that it is fair annoyance. but the problem with the comparison between Rhulad and Karsa is that Rhulad had been set out to be a failure since the start, he wasn't supposed to get the sword, he was a tragic pathetic character almost from start to finish. He didn't completely fail but getting around a sword that must be a good couple of feet wide with just a normal sword is almost an insurmountable challenge. Not forgetting that yes, Rhulad was imbued with great prowess mainly from the multiple deaths, he still isn't a match for a Toblokai Ascendant that kills Deregoth with his bare hands. Any ascendant in the story is another level above him really. Iron Bars, equivalent to ascendant at the very least, Karsa, a Warren unto himself wielding a God of swords with two Toblokai souls inside. It was never going to be closely fought and I wasn't expecting it to be to be honest. A a thousand deaths represents a thousand failures, it was never going to be another way. I am sorry it did not meet your needs as a fight, i think the main problem is that this fight was surrounded by so many more impressive ones that outshone it. I mean a single Crimson guard fighting 5 Toblokai gods on his own for a time, then a half blood toblokai simpleton in the form of Ublala Pung backing him makes this fight look like the joke it is.

[Aptorian]

It's an old debate we had 5 years ago, we don't need to repeat it here but just to reiterate.

Every death makes Rhulad stronger. That was what we were told in Midnight Tides. In HOC the Andii spirits speak of some kind of horror called The Emperor of a Thousand Deaths. Of course a thousand is probably just an elaboration upon the truth. Lets just say he's only died a hundred times over the past decade. That is a 100 times his power should have grown. Even if we ignore the magical power that the CG was pouring into him, his sheer strength, speed and skill with the blade should have meant that he should have had the fortitude to face Karsa head on, if not outright kick him out of the arena.

Again, I get that Karsa out thought the Emperor, and that Rhulad was completely bonkers. All I asked for was them exchanging blows, Karsa achknowledging that holy shit he is good, then tricking Rhulad.

That fight was all kinds of bullshit.

[Abyss]

Not Brent Weeks, on 18 December 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

...Every death makes Rhulad stronger. That was what we were told in Midnight Tides. In HOC the Andii spirits speak of some kind of horror called The Emperor of a Thousand Deaths. Of course a thousand is probably just an elaboration upon the truth. Lets just say he's only died a hundred times over the past decade. That is a 100 times his power should have grown. Even if we ignore the magical power that the CG was pouring into him, his sheer strength, speed and skill with the blade should have meant that he should have had the fortitude to face Karsa head on, if not outright kick him out of the arena.

Karsa had all his chained souls, which included those chained souls' unborn ancestors.

Quote

Again, I get that Karsa out thought the Emperor, and that Rhulad was completely bonkers. All I asked for was them exchanging blows, Karsa achknowledging that holy shit he is good, then tricking Rhulad.

That fight was all kinds of bullshit.

Iron Bars acknowledged that Rhulad was good back in MT. Then Rhulad killed the Finnad whatsisface who was second only to Brys for good measure. We knew he was good.

Karsa was just better. And Karsa doesn't acknowledge anyone as his equal up to that point in the series.

[Aptorian]

As far as I understand the souls never had any effect upon Karsa. They were just chained to him, like a wake of death. They didn't give him power did they?

If they did, then the Karsa we meet in TTH would have been a seriously diminished man, what with all the souls getting consumed in what ever ritual Dev pulled off.

Also:

Quote

which included those chained souls' unborn ancestors.

What does this actually mean. I don't recal there being "residual" chain connected to the already chained up souls. If he had the power of the unborn souls that the already chained souls would have sired... well, that would be an infinite source of souls wouldn't it? That would be all souls that would ever been born by their bloodline for the next billion billion years. Or is it the other way around? All the souls that came before the chained souls? Which would also become pretty insane.

This post has been edited by Not Brent Weeks: 18 December 2013 - 03:19 PM

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

seeing how pathetic the Crippled God was and how pathetic Rhulad had become, i dare say the power given each time he died was minimal, requiring many deaths for improvement via that strength. Rhulad was also barely a man in age, and therefore not much of a warrior at this point if I remember correctly? The power Karsa unleashed to take off his arm was obviously due to the souls in the sword, maybe in this fight only, those souls did help him? Making the fight seem so easy. Maybe after his ritual those souls somehow bound to Karsa keeping him strong, maybe pulling off such a crazy feat meant that Karsa became more powerful, afterall incredible feats by people in this series begets power, and often Ascendancy such as Dassem, The Bridgeburners etc etc. Even though Karsa shrugs off help in such fights, maybe he had the help of a God without knowing? I suppose this is all theoretical twoddle though on my part, I just enjoy conjecture on this series haha. The end of it is, Karsa rules and it will be very interesting to see him tested properly in the Karsa trilogy, Erikson has built him up through fights but never put him against an extraordinary person yet. Such as Dassem, super high Seguleh, Silchas, Draconus etc etc. Be good to see some real fights with him in! :-)

[Kanese S's]

We did get a proper fight.

Everyone knows I'm no Karsa fanboy, but while Rhulad was pretty good, Karsa was better, and figured out how Rhulad kept coming back to life, so did something about that rather than just kill him over and over and over again.

The trick has never been killing Rhulad. Lots of people have killed Rhulad. The hard part is getting him to stay dead.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Well, lets all get some perspective here too. Karsa could have NEVER made it to the Crippled God's realm without the additional help of Samar Dev's spirit containing knife, and Ubala sacrificing Old Hunch Arbat so that the spirits could open the gate via the impaled sword and Karsa and Hunch's blood. That got Karsa to the shore, where he was able to take out Rhulad for good. It was a team effort.

[Duikers'Ghost]

I dont see what the issue is here. We are talking about KARSA MUTHAFUCKING ORLONG! The same guy that killed two Deragoth with his bare hands...i don't think anything more need be said. As I understand it, Rhulad lost to every single champion he fought, and only after dying and returning multiple times was he able to defeat ANY of them. Karsa didn't allow this to happen. Plain and simple as far as im concerned.

As for not killing the crippled god, i think that is self explanatory. see the previous posts.

[Abyss]

Duikers, on 08 April 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

I dont see what the issue is here. We are talking about KARSA MUTHAFUCKING ORLONG! The same guy that killed two Deragoth with his bare hands...i don't think anything more need be said.

Actually he had a sword, soletaken pelt 'armor', and Leoman jumping in to help him out at the end.

Not that he isn't a badass, he's just not quite THAT badass.

Quote

As I understand it, Rhulad lost to every single champion he fought, and only after dying and returning multiple times was he able to defeat ANY of them.

Not quite. By the end he was wiping out whole groups of them wholesale without dying. Remember he got a bit better each time he died, but also crazier.

[Inane Babble]

Duikers, on 08 April 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

I dont see what the issue is here. We are talking about KARSA MUTHAFUCKING ORLONG! The same guy that killed two Deragoth with his bare hands...i don't think anything more need be said. As I understand it, Rhulad lost to every single champion he fought, and only after dying and returning multiple times was he able to defeat ANY of them. Karsa didn't allow this to happen. Plain and simple as far as im concerned.

As for not killing the crippled god, i think that is self explanatory. see the previous posts.

Quote

The proud, boisterous warrior who had been Gadalanak returned to the compound barely recognizable as human.

The kind of failure, Samar Dev was led to understand, that infuriated this terrible, terrifying Emperor.

Accordingly, Gadalanak had been cut to pieces. Long after he was dead, Rhulad's dread sword had swung down, chopping, slashing, stabbing and twisting.

Most of the man's blood had probably drained into the sand of the arena floor, since the corpse carried by the burial retinue of Indebted did not even drip.



Puddy and other warriors, still waiting their turn – the masked woman included – stood
nearby, watching the bearers and their reed stretcher with its grisly heap of raw meat and jutting
bone cross the compound on their way to what was known as the Urn Room, where Gadalanak's
remains would be interred. Another Indebted trailed the bearers, carrying the warrior's weapon
and shield, virtually clean of any blood, spattered or otherwise. Word had already come of the
contest's details. The Emperor had cut off Gadalanak's weapon-arm with the first blow, midway
between hand and elbow, sending the weapon flying off to one side. Shield-arm followed,
severed at the shoulder. It was said the attending Tiste Edur – and the few Letherii dignitaries
whose bloodlust overwhelmed panic at sudden financial straits – had then voiced an ecstatic
roar, as if answering Gadalanak's own screams.

At least one, and implied to be more than one, champion failed to kill the emperoer even a single time. But I agree with your post, Karsa Orlong be Karsa Orlong.

[D'rek]

I do not understand all the "Karsa is so bamf he killed two Deragoth with his bare hands!" Is that really so impressive? Karsa is like 8 ft tall and has been working out for 80 years or so. Didn't Masan Gilani, a puny little human, kill a Deragoth with nothing but a tiny little knife (while naked)?! Karsa had plenty more going for him than her. Doesn't seem like killing Deragoth is all that great an achievement!

In any case, Apt, re the thousand (hundred) deaths, my take on it has always been that each time Rhulad fights and loses with the Sword, he does indeed improve, but only up to a maximum skill level of the person he fought. So when Iron Bars killed him, the Sword learned some new moves and instincts from losing to Iron Bars, and same from Moroch Nevath. But eventually he's learned lots of cool moves from all the people who killed him, and has gone from a very swift learning curve to a plateau. At that point, he is probably winning without dying most of the time, but every now and then a new foe comes along who beats him, but he only learns a little bit from them and doesn't improve all that much. So, as long as you posit that Karsa as a swordsman could defend against any of the challengers who managed to kill Rhulad, and that Karsa is fast enough, strong enough or tricky enough to surpass what the Sword has learned from those previous challengers, Karsa can still defeat it.

[Duikers'Ghost]

Inane Babble, on 08 April 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

Duikers, on 08 April 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

I dont see what the issue is here. We are talking about KARSA MUTHAFUCKING ORLONG! The same guy that killed two Deragoth with his bare hands...i don't think anything more need be said. As I understand it, Rhulad lost to every single champion he fought, and only after dying and returning multiple times was he able to defeat ANY of them. Karsa didn't allow this to happen. Plain and simple as far as im concerned.

As for not killing the crippled god, i think that is self explanatory. see the previous posts.

Quote

The proud, boisterous warrior who had been Gadalanak returned to the compound barely recognizable as human.

The kind of failure, Samar Dev was led to understand, that infuriated this terrible, terrifying Emperor.

Accordingly, Gadalanak had been cut to pieces. Long after he was dead, Rhulad's dread sword had swung down, chopping, slashing, stabbing and twisting.

Most of the man's blood had probably drained into the sand of the arena floor, since the corpse carried by the burial retinue of Indebted did not even drip.



Puddy and other warriors, still waiting their turn – the masked woman included – stood
nearby, watching the bearers and their reed stretcher with its grisly heap of raw meat and jutting
bone cross the compound on their way to what was known as the Urn Room, where Gadalanak's
remains would be interred. Another Indebted trailed the bearers, carrying the warrior's weapon
and shield, virtually clean of any blood, spattered or otherwise. Word had already come of the
contest's details. The Emperor had cut off Gadalanak's weapon-arm with the first blow, midway
between hand and elbow, sending the weapon flying off to one side. Shield-arm followed,
severed at the shoulder. It was said the attending Tiste Edur – and the few Letherii dignitaries
whose bloodlust overwhelmed panic at sudden financial straits – had then voiced an ecstatic
roar, as if answering Gadalanak's own screams.

At least one, and implied to be more than one, champion failed to kill the emperoer even a single time. But I agree with your post, Karsa Orlong be Karsa Orlong.

Exactly...none of them were KARSA ORLONG!

[Abyss]

D, on 08 April 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

I do not understand all the "Karsa is so bamf he killed two Deragoth with his bare hands!" Is that really so impressive? Karsa is like 8 ft tall and has been working out for 80 years or so. Didn't Masan Gilani, a puny little human, kill a Deragoth with nothing but a tiny little knife (while naked)?!

Don't you mean a trohlbar'al shadow lizard body?

...which is later shown to be less powerful than a Hound of Shadow, let along a Deragoth.

Not to minimize Masan Gilani... it's an awesome moment, but it wasn't a Deragoth.



Karsa had plenty more going for him than her. Doesn't seem like killing Deragoth is all that great an achievement!

Quote

... as long as you posit that Karsa as a swordsman could defend against any of the challengers who managed to kill Rhulad, and that Karsa is fast enough, strong enough or tricky enough to surpass what the Sword has learned from those previous challengers, Karsa can still defeat it.

Agreed. Rhulad was level'd up to an insane point, but however you parse it out, 'only' better than those he had faced, and not entirely cumulatively.