[Dadding]

I powered through the last 200 pages of The Bonehunters today before my exams begin, and it may well be my favorite so far. But that's what I say after every book. Nonetheless, it gives me an excuse to make this thread instead of studying. So another big thanks in advance for any and all possible answers!

Eres'al
On page 302 in the Bantam version, Bottle is visited by the Eres'al in a dream / vision / real life. It happens to be with child, and Bottle works his magic and gets the opinion that this child was born of a Tiste Edur father and that it's going to be the new ruler of the Shadow Realm sometime in the future. He also mentions that the Eres'al is scared and probably wants Bottle to act as her god.

Then good guy greg Eres'al aka T'amber helps everybody out, but T'amber's been around for a while hasn't she - has she been "possessed" the whole time? And T'amber-Eres'al-transformer seems to know what she's doing, and is definitely not preggers. But we're still talking about the same scared animal that visits Bottle earlier on. It just seems to me there's two completely conflicting ideas of the Eres'al going on here. Also is she still pregnant, and am I supposed to know what's up with that, or do we find that out later? I'll assume the latter.

Ganoes' Vacation
Ganoes, Ganath, Hedge, et al. find themselves in the Jaghut realm of death is it? But this realm also happens to connect to the place where Trull and Onrack found the Deragoth statues earlier on. I thought that was still the Nascent, or am I forgetting something here? (Most likely, yes)

While we're on the subject, I want to see if I'm on the right track with the whole Deragoth / Hounds of Shadows / Statues thing. When Ganoes releases the first two hounds, they wind up in the realm with the statues. They "join" their Deragoth equivalent in the statue, and then when the statue is shattered, the Deragoth escape and meet our friend Karsa. Same kind of thing happens when Ganoes shatters the remaining statues, except before doing anything the Deragoth want to find their Hound equivalent and kill (?) them?

Ganoes' Big Plan
Ganoes released the Deragoth in an effort to eliminate Dejim Nebrahl. But that doesn't seem to be the only reason as we learn later. So Ganoes released the Deragoth knowing they would chase the hounds, because the hounds had stolen Dejim Nebrahl. Then he summons the hounds to Poliel which brought the Deragoth with them, ensuring that Poliel would die? Am I getting that right? Or were the hounds following Quick Ben instead and it was just a happy coincidence?

Regardless, Quick happens to be there because of his sister, and Shadowthrone trying to kill him, but then Shadowthrone heals him at the end of the book after he fights Icarium because they're BFFs now?

And then Apsalar is also there to save Quick because she does what she wants? And then Shadowthrone thinks it's Cotillions fault (p.768 - I had him, it's all your fault. / Hold on I didn't attack the hounds. / That's what you think) - or is he just referencing the fact that Apsalar still has a bit of Cotillion inside herself?

Laseen
During the big bad meeting, we're shown that the general hatred towards the Wickans is actually of Laseen's doing. This has forced her to treat Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel as heroes, and the general attitude is that she is now afraid and trapped. So why spread those rumours in the first place? What did she possibly stand to gain from the decimation of the Wickans and Khundryl Burned tears who were among her last military force? And why ally herself with Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel who are clearly not ally-material? I'm not saying she should have predicted this exact scenario, I'm just wondering what her justification was, and the whole "The people need an enemy thing" just doesn't seem like enough - they already have an enemy - Korbolo Dom.


That's all for now, as you were.

This post has been edited by Dadding: 06 December 2013 - 10:33 PM

[D'rek]

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I powered through the last 200 pages of The Bonehunters today before my exams begin, and it may well be my favorite so far. But that's what I say after every book. Nonetheless, it gives me an excuse to make this thread instead of studying. So another big thanks in advance for any and all possible answers!

Eres'al
On page 302 in the Bantam version, Bottle is visited by the Eres'al in a dream / vision / real life. It happens to be with child, and Bottle works his magic and gets the opinion that this child was born of a Tiste Edur father and that it's going to be the new ruler of the Shadow Realm sometime in the future. He also mentions that the Eres'al is scared and probably wants Bottle to act as her god.

Then good guy greg Eres'al aka T'amber helps everybody out, but T'amber's been around for a while hasn't she - has she been "possessed" the whole time? And T'amber-Eres'al-transformer seems to know what she's doing, and is definitely not preggers. But we're still talking about the same scared animal that visits Bottle earlier on. It just seems to me there's two completely conflicting ideas of the Eres'al going on here. Also is she still pregnant, and am I supposed to know what's up with that, or do we find that out later? I'll assume the latter.

Yeah, pretty much. Since the Eres'al can travel through time she doesn't need to be pregnant at the same time as possessing/bonding with T'amber. How long she and T'amber have been doing that is a mystery, since T'amber has been so secretive the whole time.

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Ganoes' Vacation
Ganoes, Ganath, Hedge, et al. find themselves in the Jaghut realm of death is it? But this realm also happens to connect to the place where Trull and Onrack found the Deragoth statues earlier on. I thought that was still the Nascent, or am I forgetting something here? (Most likely, yes)

While we're on the subject, I want to see if I'm on the right track with the whole Deragoth / Hounds of Shadows / Statues thing. When Ganoes releases the first two hounds, they wind up in the realm with the statues. They "join" their Deragoth equivalent in the statue, and then when the statue is shattered, the Deragoth escape and meet our friend Karsa. Same kind of thing happens when Ganoes shatters the remaining statues, except before doing anything the Deragoth want to find their Hound equivalent and kill (?) them?

Sounds about right, or at least that's what Ganoes thinks happened.

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Ganoes' Big Plan
Ganoes released the Deragoth in an effort to eliminate Dejim Nebrahl. But that doesn't seem to be the only reason as we learn later. So Ganoes released the Deragoth knowing they would chase the hounds, because the hounds had stolen Dejim Nebrahl. Then he summons the hounds to Poliel which brought the Deragoth with them, ensuring that Poliel would die? Am I getting that right? Or were the hounds following Quick Ben instead and it was just a happy coincidence?

I don't think Ganoes had planned to use the Deragoth and Hounds to kill Poliel right off the bat, but once he was headed towards attacking her he put that plan into motion.

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Regardless, Quick happens to be there because of his sister, and Shadowthrone trying to kill him, but then Shadowthrone heals him at the end of the book after he fights Icarium because they're BFFs now?

QB is indeed there because of his sister, but ST being the crafty bastard he is drops QB right in front of the Hounds as payback. Whether QB would have died from it or not is debateable - he wasn't there in his true body anyways.

ST healing QB - yeah I guess maybe they are BFFs. Or maybe ST just doesn't want his latest tool to go to waste.

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

And then Apsalar is also there to save Quick because she does what she wants?

Yup.

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

And then Shadowthrone thinks it's Cotillions fault (p.768 - I had him, it's all your fault. / Hold on I didn't attack the hounds. / That's what you think) - or is he just referencing the fact that Apsalar still has a bit of Cotillion inside herself?

The latter, I think, but really you can interpret it either way.

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Laseen
During the big bad meeting, we're shown that the general hatred towards the Wickans is actually of Laseen's doing. This has forced her to treat Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel as heroes, and the general attitude is that she is now afraid and trapped. So why spread those rumours in the first place? What did she possibly stand to gain from the decimation of the Wickans and Khundryl Burned tears who were among her last military force? And why ally herself with Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel who are clearly not ally-material? I'm not saying she should have predicted this exact scenario, I'm just wondering what her justification was, and the whole "The people need an enemy thing" just doesn't seem like enough - they already have an enemy - Korbolo Dom.


That's all for now, as you were.

With 7C out of control and covered in plague, Quon Tali can't get any food from 7C anymore and there are now too many people in Quon Tali and not enough farms. The Wickans and Khundryl as fighting forces were mostly all gone now anyways. By turning public sentiment against the Wickans, she can then oust them from the Wickan Plains and turn the plains into farmland to feed the people of Quon Tali.

[Dadding]

 Drek, on 06 December 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

Yeah, pretty much. Since the Eres'al can travel through time she doesn't need to be pregnant at the same time as possessing/bonding with T'amber. How long she and T'amber have been doing that is a mystery, since T'amber has been so secretive the whole time.

Aha, wibbly wobbly, timey whimey stuff.
Thanks D'rek!

This post has been edited by Dadding: 10 December 2013 - 12:18 AM

[Abyss]

 D, on 06 December 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Ganoes' Big Plan
Ganoes released the Deragoth in an effort to eliminate Dejim Nebrahl. But that doesn't seem to be the only reason as we learn later. So Ganoes released the Deragoth knowing they would chase the hounds, because the hounds had stolen Dejim Nebrahl. Then he summons the hounds to Poliel which brought the Deragoth with them, ensuring that Poliel would die? Am I getting that right? Or were the hounds following Quick Ben instead and it was just a happy coincidence?

I don't think Ganoes had planned to use the Deragoth and Hounds to kill Poliel right off the bat, but once he was headed towards attacking her he put that plan into motion.

Ganoes knew a convergence was coming and intended to set whatever emerged against D'rek. That it happened to be the Hounds and the Deragoth, we'll, i'd bet (pun intended) the deck gave him a hint what was coming.

Quote

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

And then Apsalar is also there to save Quick because she does what she wants?

Yup.

And because she feels a loyalty to him as part of her BB squad.

Quote

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

And then Shadowthrone thinks it's Cotillions fault (p.768 - I had him, it's all your fault. / Hold on I didn't attack the hounds. / That's what you think) - or is he just referencing the fact that Apsalar still has a bit of Cotillion inside herself?

The latter, I think, but really you can interpret it either way.

Totally the latter, but reflecting that Apsalar acts in part because she absorbed Cots' personality... to an extent she interfered because he would have.

Quote

... By turning public sentiment against the Wickans, she can then oust them from the Wickan Plains and turn the plains into farmland to feed the people of Quon Tali.

She also needed a scapegoat for the loss of 7C, so the Wickans presented a convenient target.

[Overactive Imagination]

why do these books have to be so fucking complicated

[Dadding]

 Overactive Imagination, on 12 December 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

why do these books have to be so fucking complicated

Predictable formulaic books are boring. This way you can silently judge everyone around you for reading easy books.
And thanks Abyss!

[Duikers'Ghost]

 Dadding, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I powered through the last 200 pages of The Bonehunters today before my exams begin, and it may well be my favorite so far. But that's what I say after every book. Nonetheless, it gives me an excuse to make this thread instead of studying. So another big thanks in advance for any and all possible answers!


Ganoes' Big Plan
Ganoes released the Deragoth in an effort to eliminate Dejim Nebrahl. But that doesn't seem to be the only reason as we learn later. So Ganoes released the Deragoth knowing they would chase the hounds, because the hounds had stolen Dejim Nebrahl. Then he summons the hounds to Poliel which brought the Deragoth with them, ensuring that Poliel would die? Am I getting that right? Or were the hounds following Quick Ben instead and it was just a happy coincidence?

Regardless, Quick happens to be there because of his sister, and Shadowthrone trying to kill him, but then Shadowthrone heals him at the end of the book after he fights Icarium because they're BFFs now?

And then Apsalar is also there to save Quick because she does what she wants? And then Shadowthrone thinks it's Cotillions fault (p.768 - I had him, it's all your fault. / Hold on I didn't attack the hounds. / That's what you think) - or is he just referencing the fact that Apsalar still has a bit of Cotillion inside herself?

As I understand it. His intention initially was to use the Deragoth against Poliel. Dejim Nebrahl was just a happy coincidence. Then Shadowthrone is talking to Ganoes about making sure the Hounds of Shadow are where he wants the Deragoth to be and Shadthorne realizes this is a perfect opportunity to catch Quick Ben as well. As for Shadowthrone healing Quick Ben at the end, I always thought of their relationship like two people that love to hate each other. While they do some really crazy/mean shit to one another, there is actually a kind of friendship between them. They like pulling pranks on one another but I had the feeling they dont actually want to kill one another...Obviously I could be wrong but it was a thought I had when I read the end.
Now for Apsalar. If you remember right after the whole debacle at the temple of D'rek when Apsalar saves Quick Ben, Quick Ben thanks Apsalar and she says "I have no idea what you are talking about wizard." Now at first I thought she was just being hardcore and didnt want anyone to know that she did something nice, but then I remembered that Bottle was kind of watching and wanting to help out. I thought that he and/or the Eres'al might have possessed Apsalar and helped out Quick Ben and that was why she didnt know that she had helped him out when he thanked her. What do you guys think?

[Duikers'Ghost]

Also, I didnt think that Laseen was responsible for spreading the lies about Coltaine and the wickans. It was Korbolo Dom. I dont have the book or I would find the quote. But what I dont understand is that Laseen is supposed to be quite powerful and at least moderately intelligent. Yet at the end of the book it seems as though she is a helpless damsel in distress and Korbolo and Mallick are running the show. How can that be when they we captured by Tavore and delivered to Laseen. I just dont believe that Laseen is stupid enough to just let the two of them take over the empire the way they did at the end. I hope there is going to be something to resolve this later. Otherwise I feel it is a major hole in the story.

[Kanese S's]

Read Return of the Crimson Guard

[Dadding]

 Kanese S, on 18 January 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Read Return of the Crimson Guard

Just got it in the mail! Started reading it in class today.

 Duikers, on 18 January 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

Also, I didnt think that Laseen was responsible for spreading the lies about Coltaine and the wickans. It was Korbolo Dom. I dont have the book or I would find the quote. But what I dont understand is that Laseen is supposed to be quite powerful and at least moderately intelligent. Yet at the end of the book it seems as though she is a helpless damsel in distress and Korbolo and Mallick are running the show. How can that be when they we captured by Tavore and delivered to Laseen. I just dont believe that Laseen is stupid enough to just let the two of them take over the empire the way they did at the end. I hope there is going to be something to resolve this later. Otherwise I feel it is a major hole in the story.

This and so much this. It felt contrived and completely contrary to the ideas we had of both characters. Laseen is supposed to be a crafty, intelligent and 'up-there' with the likes of the other Old Guard members, whereas Mallick Rell and Korbolo Dom just feel conniving, deceitful and way-too-ambitious. Hoodwinking her seems like a easy way to get the plot to move forward despite the unrealism of the whole thing.