[Soletaken Toblakai]

I just finished reading the Crippled god, fascinating just fascinating, anyway, there's a small issue that's been bugging me throughout the series, it's probably not even significant but I just need to understand, in the Malazan military structure, is there a difference between the regulars and the skirmishers? I know that the heavies and the marines are some of delta force/black ops/demolitions and all those are specialised areas, so it leaves me thinking that the regulars and skirmishers are a little more than sword fodder, but what exactly is the difference between them? I see SE's art of war usually includes him beginning with the skirmishers first and then sending in the rest, so what do the regulars do?

[Studlock]

The way I see it, and someone with more military knowledge than me can (and probably will) correct me, is that the regulars are main infantry troops. They do most of the main fighting in organized formations with standard infantry gear while the skirmishers move around a lot, usually on the flanks of the regulars, and seem to have a kind of anti-cavalry function with bow and arrows and pikes. The heavies seem to be of a more specialized infantry only brought out to punch a big hole in the enemies line while the marines are a highly specialized force that is equipped to function as any of the above along with engineering work and sabotage (with the obvious sea-to-land capabilities which makes me suspect to the native way of warfare of the Malazan people). The Malazan army doesn't seem to have a natural cavalry usually relying on horse-cultures like the Wickans and seem to let them to do what they do best. Mages seem to work as heavy ordinance, or use to, but now by the time of the Cripple God, seem to be rolled up into the marines (along with the sappers who would probably be a separate part of the army that rarely saw action).

[D'iversify]

Skirmishers=light armour, high mobility; regulars=medium armour, reasonable mobility; heavies=heavy armour, next to no mobility (too slow of foot and thought).

[LinearPhilosopher]

Soletaken Toblakai, on 27 November 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I just finished reading the Crippled god, fascinating just fascinating, anyway, there's a small issue that's been bugging me throughout the series, it's probably not even significant but I just need to understand, in the Malazan military structure, is there a difference between the regulars and the skirmishers? I know that the heavies and the marines are some of delta force/black ops/demolitions and all those are specialised areas, so it leaves me thinking that the regulars and skirmishers are a little more than sword fodder, but what exactly is the difference between them? I see SE's art of war usually includes him beginning with the skirmishers first and then sending in the rest, so what do the regulars do?

skirmishers in a general sense are light infantry used to harass an enemy, weakening their formation before a main engagements. They can be anything from javelin throwers to crossbowmen. Generally they would be in the front line and retreat back into the allied army, or behind the main body pelting the enemy with ranged fire. Skirmirshers can also be used to describe light cavalry

Anti calvalry is part of the regular infantry as it's cheaper to equip someone with a spear then a sword (insert 1h weapon here) and shield. generally you're medium infantry is a mix of spear men, and men at arms. medium infantry are exactly that, medium, they don't have the speed and agility of light infantry, but they also don't have the heavy armor that heavy infantry. They have their uses, generally heavy infantry is much more expensive so armies will have fewer of them, and more a large contingent of medium infantry. There are of course exceptions to this, the Greek shoplifter are textbook definition of heavy infantry and most soldiers were hoplites at that time.

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 27 November 2013 - 08:19 PM

[Abyss]

In RCG Laseen made solid use of skirmishers vs heavier armed/armored and trained troops.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 27 November 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

In RCG Laseen made solid use of skirmishers vs heavier armed/armored and trained troops.

And as we saw in those fights, there's plenty of bleed-over between types of military forces. I'm sure there are some Wu armies where each cohort is absolutely only one thing, but Malazan forces do seem to mix-and-match a bit. The RotCG skirmishers were also making sneak attacks with munitions which would be more of a marine/saboteur sort of thing. In the 14th, the marines and at least some of the heavies are mixed together. Not to mention that the marines themselves are already a mix of fighters, sappers, mages and healers.

On the other hand, we almost exclusively get the perspective of the marines and marine-like soldiers and the officers, we rarely ever get the perspectives of soldiers who are just medium infantry in a big phalanx.

It's interesting to think about, IMO. From HoC, here's how Fiddler describes the structure of the 14th:

Quote

"Officially, you're 4th Squad, one of three squads under Lieutenant Ranal's command. [...] We're all in the 9th Company, which consists of three squads of heavy infantry, three of marines, and eighteen squads of medium infantry. Our commander is a man named Captain Keneb [...] Nine companies in all, making up the 8th Legion - us. The 8th is under the command of Fist Gamet [...]"

Each of the 3 Legions is supposed to be fairly self-contained / independently capable, so I imagine they don't, say, have all the healers or skirmishers in one legion. With 9 companies in the 8th Legion, then, it could be something like:

1st Company - 3x Regiments of Light Infantry (~50 each)
2nd Company - 3x Regiments of Light Infantry (~50 each)
3rd Company - 20 squads of skirmishers (~6 each)
4th Company - 3x Regiments of Medium+Heavy Infantry (~50 each)
5th Company - 3x Regiments of Medium+Heavy Infantry (~50 each)
6th Company - 8 cavalry squadrons (~20 each)
7th Company - company healers (~40), support staff (~50), etc
8th Company - 3x Regiments of Archers (~50 each)
9th Company - 3 Marine Squads (~6 each), 3 Heavy Infantry squads (~8 each), 18 self-contained Medium Infantry squads (~8 each)


Each regiment or group of squads commands by a Lieutenant, each Company commanded by a Captain, the Legion as a whole commanded by a Fist, and the three or more legions commanded by a High Fist. Something like that could be fairly common.

Maybe!!!

[Trull's son]

I'm pretty sure there is a descriptive paragraph in either DHG or MoI that pretty much covers the equipment of the heavies, the regulars, and the marines. I could swear it was in Deadhouse, but I've skimmed through it and come up with nothing. I'm now thinking it was in MoI. Maybe when the Malazans arrive outside of Capustan, in that scene where Whiskeyjack is commanding a legion against Urdomen. I'll see about digging that up.

A bit off topic, but the fact that we rarely get any perspective from regular infantry in the series makes that last exchange in tCG between the marines and regulars really powerful. It gives a sense that we've only been witness to a fraction of the story of Tavore's army.

[Trull's son]

Found the scene I mentioned with Whiskeyjack. It's not the descriptive one I was thinking about, but tells a bit about heavy infantry, facing down Pannion Betaklites:

Quote

...four thousand silent, scale-armoured and shield-bearing veterans closed with the Betaklites. Javelins preceded their charge when but a dozen paces remained, the long-headed, barbed spears cutting the Pannion line -- a tactic peculiar to Onearm's Host -- then thrusting swords snapped from scabbards

pp.549

Using the Roman style javelin throw before charging serves, I guess, to demonstrate the flexibility of the Malazan when it comes to choosing sharp objects to kill things with. Still though, I know there's a description of the damn infantry in one of these two books. I'm not crazy, it's in there somewhere. Something odd I remember about the regulars described in that scene is their optional use of a longbow.

[BarneyLegh]

I figured skirmishers as light-er infantry - maybe flanking/scouting suited, only really equipped for light combat, hit and run style things
Regular infantry as normal soldiers - the core of the army, sword/shield/spear types.

[Abyss]

Trull, on 28 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure there is a descriptive paragraph in either DHG or MoI that pretty much covers the equipment of the heavies, the regulars, and the marines. I could swear it was in Deadhouse, but I've skimmed through it and come up with nothing. I'm now thinking it was in MoI. Maybe when the Malazans arrive outside of Capustan, in that scene where Whiskeyjack is commanding a legion against Urdomen. I'll see about digging that up.

I could be wrong but i think it's the scenes in DG where Duiker stands with the infantry.

Quote

A bit off topic, but the fact that we rarely get any perspective from regular infantry in the series makes that last exchange in tCG between the marines and regulars really powerful. It gives a sense that we've only been witness to a fraction of the story of Tavore's army.

I loved those scenes, and then Tavore's speech at the end when they face the FA's main army. It was such a nice touch

Trull, on 28 November 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Found the scene I mentioned with Whiskeyjack. It's not the descriptive one I was thinking about, but tells a bit about heavy infantry, facing down Pannion Betaklites:

Quote

...four thousand silent, scale-armoured and shield-bearing veterans closed with the Betaklites. Javelins preceded their charge when but a dozen paces remained, the long-headed, barbed spears cutting the Pannion line -- a tactic peculiar to Onearm's Host -- then thrusting swords snapped from scabbards

pp.549

Using the Roman style javelin throw before charging serves, I guess, to demonstrate the flexibility of the Malazan when it comes to choosing sharp objects to kill things with. Still though, I know there's a description of the damn infantry in one of these two books. I'm not crazy, it's in there somewhere. Something odd I remember about the regulars described in that scene is their optional use of a longbow.

Gah... it's at the edge of my brain... something about a handful of bows at the center of the formation... DG again maybe? One of the early Chain engagements...

[worry]

Let's form an army and see what really works.

[Trull's son]

Abyss you're exactly right. Can't believe I missed it before. It's when Duiker is to stand with the infantry. page 548:

Quote

The medium infantry, who formed the bulk of the army, were arranged by company, each company consisting of cohorts that were in turn made up of squads. They would go into battle with full-body shields of bronze, pikes and short swords. They wore bronze scale hauberks, greaves and gauntlets, and bronze helmets reinforced with iron bars wrapped in a cage around the skullcap. Chain camails protected their necks and shoulders. The other footmen consisted of marines and sappers, the former a combination of heavy infantry and shock troops -- the old Emperor's invention and still unique to the Empire. They were armed with crossbows and short swords as well as long swords. They wore blackened chain beneath gray leathers. Every third soldier carried a large, round shield of thick, soft wood that would be soaked for an hour before battle. These shields were used to catch and hold enemy weapons ranging from swords to flails. They would be discarded after the first few minutes of a fight, usually studded with an appalling array of edged and spiked iron. This particular tactic of the Seventh had proved effective against the Semk and their undisciplined, two-handed fighting methods. The marines called it pulling teeth

So we get a decent idea of what medium infantry and marines are carrying. Skirmishers/light infantry, I would imagine, are basically marines minus the heavy infantry shields and probably wearing just the leathers.

Those bows have to be around here somewhere.

This post has been edited by Trull's son: 30 November 2013 - 01:42 AM

[Soletaken Toblakai]

Yip, definitely makes more sense now, you reckon that they had a cavalry before Kellanved or did the Malazans just not see its importance? I find that quite suspect that they'd fully depend on external horse warriors to be cavalry

[Kanese S's]

Soletaken Toblakai, on 30 November 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Yip, definitely makes more sense now, you reckon that they had a cavalry before Kellanved or did the Malazans just not see its importance? I find that quite suspect that they'd fully depend on external horse warriors to be cavalry

That's a good question. I could see there being a possibility that they didn't really have much in the way of cavalry until after beginning the invasion of Quon Tali, since they started from Malaz Island, where there might not be the terrain that favors cavalry.

[worry]

Well before Kell, there wasn't a Malazan military to speak of, was there? Malaz City and Jakata were simply pirate havens, with Mock as the big man on campus. If there was cavalry, they likely rode seahorses.

[Kanese S's]

Indeed. Cavalry might be nice, on Malaz Island, but it probably wouldn't be exactly necessary, for Kell to band some pirates and smugglers and Napan exiles together and conquer the other pirates and smugglers. Hence why I think they might not have had much cavalry before they started invading the mainland. The frequent use of nomadic tribes as cavalry, as pointed out earlier, might also indicate that the Malazans originally didn't have significant mounted forces of their own.

[Soletaken Toblakai]

Interesting, here's another one, since the marines were Kellanved's brain spawn, and the sappers are to my understanding, marines, did they exist before the Moranth? Were their munitions of a lower quality perhaps? Or were they born after meeting the Moranth?

[Ukjent]

As far as I can recall the sappers where the engineers, build bridges, defense structures and so on.

[Kanese S's]

They were probably heavily involved in sieges and such.

[D'rek]

re: the archers scene - maybe in RG when the 14th lands at Letheras?

re: marines pre-Moranth - I think from DG we can see that the old style of marines did not even include sappers, moranth munitions or no moranth munitions. It was probably only once moranth munitions were introduced that sappers became a regular part of the marines due to the moranth munitions' effectiveness in shock troop tactics. Sappers/saboteurs certainly had a role to play before the munitions, though. RotCG has some good examples of this - digging under a wall during a siege or conversely reinforcing it, building arbalests and scaling equipment, tactical fire-lighting, etc