[Gothos]

Amadaun, on 24 September 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

I'm not saying it hasn't, but...yeah, it's not the only reason for my choices.

And I think from studies there are slightly more non-sexual females than males, but I'm not certain on that. There are a lot more females who admit that they rely only on auto-stimulation, though.

Hahah, aight, I hear you

Well, there's always the overflow element that pushes us towards intercourse so there has to be some sort of difference stemming from that, I guess (not that auto-stimulation can't take care of that, though), and quite a bit of social pressure from our peers and modern pop-culture.

In any case, referring back to the original subject, the whole "friendzone" construct is amusing for image macros and memes, but entitled manchildren that invoke it in a serious sense are annoying as hell. I mean, I've been "friendzoned" notoriously for years, but I won't go and blame the girls for it - I was (even more) socially awkward and afraid of actually getting what I was "gunning for", and more than a little insecure as well - and it always shows.


edit: I'll actually go and force my way through the video now...

This post has been edited by Gothos: 24 September 2013 - 10:47 AM

[Silencer]

Friendly mod-reminder to watch your wording and bear in mind this is a sensitive subject under discussion.

Carry on.

[Kanubis]

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

[Morgoth]

Shinrei, on 24 September 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

I wasnt judging anyone, I was speaking in general on male/female sex drives. I dont engage in one night stands, nor do I have any problem with people who do.

I wasn't referering to you, but to the person responding to your posts. Sorry for not being clear.

[Morgoth]

Amadaun, on 24 September 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 September 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Amadaun, on 23 September 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Shinrei, on 21 September 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Re: sex drive.

Yes, women can want sexing just as much as guys. What they DONT want as much as guys is to hook up with a complete strangers for a one night stand...every night they can possibly make it happen. It's not the desire for sex that's different, it's that girls tend to be more picky and require more commitment. (read GENERALIZATION)

I'll freely admit that my sex drive is actually pretty minimal, especially compared to my married sisters. And I have enough trust issues (thanks to a nasty relationship) that a one-night-stand is entirely out of the question. I go by the basic rule that if I wouldn't let a guy/girl stick a finger in another orifice (mouth/nose/ear) there's no way I'm going to go with far riskier behavior for (roughly) six minutes of good feelings. If you're lucky.

I'll also freely admit that I do (mentally) judge people who think one-night stands are a good idea. *shrug* I know enough biology to know that one-night-stands are dangerous, and I tend to get pissy when I get attacked for "slut-shaming" when I point that out.

Look, if you want to indulge in casual sex, that's your prerogative. Go right ahead. It's your life, your body, and if you take precautions, more power to you. Whatever. Just don't attack me because I'd rather be single and celibate.

You judge them. Why is it any more deplorable that they judge you? Your reasons to do so seem no more rational.

I'd say that good portion of my judgement is born out of worry. It's a high-risk, low-reward activity, and a lot of our idiot kids don't know or think much about safe sex. I remember an article on BBC I read a while back (can't recall the link...I'll look for it) where it discussed how young Africans were lowering the rate of AIDS by practicing abstinence/monogamy/safe sex - but infections continued to rise in Europe because they were doing the exact opposite.

If your one-night-stands are sufficiently protected (physical dangers) or not done while drunk/stoned/high (mental dangers) - then it's all yours. Do whatever you need to to set off those dopamine receptors. It's none of my business. If you go at it drunk with no condom, I think I'm allowed to point out that it was a bad decision, and a dangerous one. If I'm going to judge people who decide that dancing on a cliff while blindfolded is fun, I'm sure as hell going to be just as concerned for people who risk their lives and wellbeing for sex.

My issue is that I don't like casual sex, and I've had a lot of people freak out at me like my lifestyle automatically attacks theirs. I've been told that I'm broken, or unnatural, or that I must have been abused, or I'm flat-out insane because I made this choice.

Maybe my judgement isn't any better, but I do have rational reasons for my choice. And saying: "Y'Know...CONDOM" shouldn't be considered slut-shaming.

But here you are, still writing out your judgements. You operate in a two way street, and when you chose to make judgements based on rather generalized and widely exagerated reasons you have little cause to complain of others doing the same to you. You do not even seem to realise that you're doing so. Perhaps if you tried to evaluate your opinions of casual sex on a more objective level you might receive less condemnation in return. People lash out when they feel judged, it's a rather human reaction.

Mind you, when I say evaluate, I'm not implying you should go out have more of it, or that I believe you'll decide to do more of it when you look past those ingrained prejudices of yours. I simply think you will benefit from trying to understand why other people chose to do so, without resorting to rather silly attempts at hyperbole in order to justify your own position. Personal preference is all the justification you should need.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Kanubis, on 24 September 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

This post here. It's easy to blame society for your own failings. Fixing your own failings, much harder, especially when it comes to social interactions. Not everyone is an extrovert and our society does have a preference for it.

[Silencer]

Kanubis, on 24 September 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

More or less, as I understand it, the complaint goes thus:

Girls are always saying that they "just want a nice guy".
Guy in question is (or considers himself, at least) to be a "nice guy". May even have been called such by a female friend, possibly while simultaneously ruling out a relationship with him.
Guy sees girl dating not-so-nice guys who treat girl like shit, all the while she complains about this.
Guy sits there, lamenting the fact that either girl is a hypocrite, or he is somehow "too nice" to be a viable boyfriend. "Why won't you see what's right in front of you?!?!"-style.

Or some variation thereof. The guy gets "stuck" in the "Friendzone" because girls won't go out with him because he's "too nice" even though the girls keep saying they "just want a nice guy". Can also be summed up as the perceived difference between an 'alpha' and a 'beta' guy, if you happen to have seen those terms used; the ostensible "nice guy" is what 4chan would term 'beta'.

In reality things are not that simple nor that logical, obviously. To a certain extent it is about introversion vs extroversion, confidence, taking a risk, putting yourself out there, and not giving up just because the first girl you asked out said 'no'. It's also about realizing that you can't sum up what you want in a partner in two words without being incredibly general, and you probably can't expect (and most likely don't want) anyone to actually enumerate accurately the reasons they aren't interested; they probably don't know themselves, and if they do, they are sparing your feelings by not sharing them in detail. If they do share them in detail, there a bunch of other reasons why someone would do that, too.

'Tis a complicated issue, which stems from personal self-image concerns, social standards and peer pressure, and the convoluted world of other people's feelings or preferences, combined with biological imperatives, personal experience, and level of self-understanding. On both sides of the equation. In other words; it's life, it's not easy, and it never will be. It will be harder if you let that get to you. *shrug*

[Morgoth]

Physical attraction is a big factor too. Doesn't matter how many of the rights requirements you fulfill as long as the other party does not find you attractive.

[Kanubis]

Silencer, on 25 September 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Kanubis, on 24 September 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

Lots of stuff.

Oh yeah, I totally understand the actual complaint.

I think the problem (from the people we're discussing, not you!) is seeing things in terms of Alpha male and Beta male. I get what both those things are but they're not the only type of bloke (nor are they strictly synonymous with Bad and Nice.) You can be confident and extrovert without being the unspoken the 'leader of the pack' type.

It's just like these people have a MASSIVE blind spot where most of us actually are - people with sufficient self-confidence but no extra helping of arsehole on top.

Fun extra fact: People often think of wolves with all this 'Alpha and beta' stuff. Even in wolf packs it is far more complicated. There are male roles for stepping in and calming down conflicts within the pack, for example. I doubt there's many examples in social mammals of strict 'A' and 'B' roles only.

[Silencer]

Kanubis, on 25 September 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Silencer, on 25 September 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Kanubis, on 24 September 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

Lots of stuff.

Oh yeah, I totally understand the actual complaint.

I think the problem (from the people we're discussing, not you!) is seeing things in terms of Alpha male and Beta male. I get what both those things are but they're not the only type of bloke (nor are they strictly synonymous with Bad and Nice.) You can be confident and extrovert without being the unspoken the 'leader of the pack' type.

It's just like these people have a MASSIVE blind spot where most of us actually are - people with sufficient self-confidence but no extra helping of arsehole on top.

Fun extra fact: People often think of wolves with all this 'Alpha and beta' stuff. Even in wolf packs it is far more complicated. There are male roles for stepping in and calming down conflicts within the pack, for example. I doubt there's many examples in social mammals of strict 'A' and 'B' roles only.

Oh, absolutely. The over-simplification of people into simple categories is nowhere near helpful to anyone, unless you are discussing in broad strokes in order to avoid writing a mountain of text, but people are prone to making those simplifications into an internal "fact", and that really isn't doing these guys any favors when they are mentally putting themselves into a category they deem negative. The issue is, however, that they are using these over-simplified categories which only actually exist in one's own head, in order to justify their lack of "success"; and are combining that with shifting the blame from themselves onto women, or society in general, rather than thinking that they are, as most everyone is, a complex person with good and bad points which will appeal to different people.
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy however, in that it leads to them 1) not trying to find people (or, ironically, not willing to accept) who will accept them for who they are, 2) becoming increasingly depressed and less motivated to try and pursue opportunities, in more than that one aspect of their life, 3) giving up on trying to change anything in their lives, because they view the alternative to who they are as either an unreachable or an undesirable goal; society will never see them like that/you can't change who you are/girls are all terrible hypocrites and secretly hate them because otherwise why wouldn't they want you NOW?!, whine whine, go back to part 1 and work your way through again ad infinitum.

Though, again, that's an over-simplification and a generalization of a similarly complicated set of vaguely similar social and psychological perspectives and situations. It's just what the average case presented on the internet tends to look like, more or less. And I don't mean to come across as insensitive or anything towards people who do genuinely have trouble socializing or interacting with or understanding the opposite sex; plenty of people do struggle, and plenty more don't find it easy, or even do have trouble to the point of inducing depression because of the importance they, courtesy of society, place on the importance of these things, and it's not something to be mocked or laughed at.
But by and large the internet "nice guy" is too much of an exaggeration to be taken entirely seriously, and in some cases probably does need a good stiff verbal swat upside the head rather than anything else.



*caveat, I have not watched the video linked in the OP, so this isn't a commentary on that, just a response to Kanubis' earlier query RE: "nice guys".

[Una]

Kanubis, on 24 September 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

Yes. Exactly.

But I think there's sometimes a confounding factor. One of my girlfriends mentioned something once. " It's not a problem if he's nice. Nice is good. Nice is a bare minimum. It's a problem if the best or the only thing that you can say about him is that he is nice". As in, he's not funny, he's not smart, he's not interesting, he has no hobbies, he has no real distinguishing characteristics and no other admirable traits. The corollary to that is that when turning down a guy, girls are socialized to be polite. You're not going to turn a guy down by saying, "no, I will not date you because you are boring and you act like a dork." You've been taught not to hurt people's feelings and to give good feedback along with the bad so as to soften the blow. So you end up saying something like, "I'm sorry. You're a nice guy and all, but I'm not interested in you." I think, in the guy's mind, what he hears is, "I'm sorry. You're a nice guy. I'm not interested in you." Very easy mistake to make, especially if social skills, self reflection, and reading people and situations are not your strong suit.

This post has been edited by Una: 25 September 2013 - 11:20 PM

[Amadaun]

Kanubis, on 24 September 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

One of the biggest issues with the "nice guy" thing is that there's a large difference between nice guys and "nice guys."

Actual nice guys can be friends with a girl without expecting something more than friendship. They're good people who care deeply for their female friends in an entirely non-sexual way. Or if they are romantically interested, just shrug and go on with their lives when they're turned down.

"Nice Guys" on the other hand, expect something from the girl in exchange for their niceness. They're related to the "I bought you dinner" guy and the "You wore a low-cut top" guy. They did something for a girl, so the girl is expected to reward them.

(Brief disclaimer: I'm guessing there's women like this as well, but having only dated men, and being very oblivious to flirting signals, I can't speak for my own gender.)

And...oh, hell, here's some people who have already explained it because I'm way too tired to do that typey thing with the letters and stuff.

Thoughtful discussion.

-or-

PICTURES!

(Actually, both are pretty good at making sense.)

[Gothos]

I don't exactly like how this discussion is encroaching on my long lasting custom user title - it's not meant in THAT way!

I do have some objections reg. the "PICTURES!" thing you linked there, in particular:
#3 - the "Nice Guy Card" image - why would having teh sekz mean the guy stops caring about her as a person? it's not exactly mutually exclusive (though I wholly agree this isn't some RPG quest where you gather 10 bear asses and get a reward)
#5 - the "friendzone girl meme" thingy - I'd say it's usually less about just enjoying the company and more about being utilized with no acknowledgement. no person in the world would enjoy being someone's ego booster // get out of jail free card forever. I could be wrong, though. (in any case, if a guy is being simply used in any manner they should just bugger off and find someone else)
#10 - actually wanted to single this one out as probably the most meaningful and most awesome of the cited creative work. this, THIS.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Amadaun, on 26 September 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Kanubis, on 24 September 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

So help me out here. These 'Too nice' types - is this when they're nice along with some other attribute such as lack of self-esteem, lack of drive, lack of positive outlook or some other unattractive trait, and they chose the blame the 'niceness' instead of sorting out the other thing? I've never found being nice a problem. At the end of day most who seem to whine about this kind of thing seem a bit dull, or wet, or uninspiring or something.

One of the biggest issues with the "nice guy" thing is that there's a large difference between nice guys and "nice guys."

Actual nice guys can be friends with a girl without expecting something more than friendship. They're good people who care deeply for their female friends in an entirely non-sexual way. Or if they are romantically interested, just shrug and go on with their lives when they're turned down.

"Nice Guys" on the other hand, expect something from the girl in exchange for their niceness. They're related to the "I bought you dinner" guy and the "You wore a low-cut top" guy. They did something for a girl, so the girl is expected to reward them.

(Brief disclaimer: I'm guessing there's women like this as well, but having only dated men, and being very oblivious to flirting signals, I can't speak for my own gender.)

And...oh, hell, here's some people who have already explained it because I'm way too tired to do that typey thing with the letters and stuff.

Thoughtful discussion.

-or-

PICTURES!

(Actually, both are pretty good at making sense.)

that flow chart was awesome. I think it needs to be circulated more widely.

[Kanubis]

Thanks Una and Amadaun, that sums it up nicely. Two different levels it seems. Some who are genuinely nice but lack anything else noteworthy to be attracted to, and uh... damn, I'd never really thought just how creepy a certain sort of nice guy is.

Still, Una's mate had a winner with the "It's a problem if the best or the only thing that you can say about him is that he is nice" line I think - that's what I was looking for.

I don't want to think too hard on the creepier type because my ex's 'best friend' seemed very like that, and she bloody ran off with him!

[Amadaun]

Gothos, on 26 September 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

I don't exactly like how this discussion is encroaching on my long lasting custom user title - it's not meant in THAT way!

I do have some objections reg. the "PICTURES!" thing you linked there, in particular:
#3 - the "Nice Guy Card" image - why would having teh sekz mean the guy stops caring about her as a person? it's not exactly mutually exclusive (though I wholly agree this isn't some RPG quest where you gather 10 bear asses and get a reward)
#5 - the "friendzone girl meme" thingy - I'd say it's usually less about just enjoying the company and more about being utilized with no acknowledgement. no person in the world would enjoy being someone's ego booster // get out of jail free card forever. I could be wrong, though. (in any case, if a guy is being simply used in any manner they should just bugger off and find someone else)
#10 - actually wanted to single this one out as probably the most meaningful and most awesome of the cited creative work. this, THIS.

*thinks about it*

#3 - I think the point is that if you're nice to someone in hopes of a sexual reward, you really don't care about them as a person. No, it's not mutually exclusive. But there's a huge difference between "My friend is hurt/sad, I need to comfort her/him because seeing them in pain hurts me," and "My friend is hurt/sad, I need to comfort her/him because if I do, I might get into their pants." It's directed towards men who are only friendly and caring to a woman because they think they'll be rewarded with sex. And if they get pissed off that they're only a friend, they were never a friend to begin with.

#5 - I agree that there are people out there who simply use their "friends" as ego boosts. And they are bad and should feel bad. And there are girls who like to string along guys because it makes them feel special. And they are bad and should feel bad. Look - sex is crazy important in our society. Because instincts and stuff. But sex is not a game. It shouldn't ever be. No one should expect it, no one deserves it, and no one should use it as a toy to manipulate people. Period.

#10 - Something Positive isn't a favorite comic, but when he comes out with a gem, it is a beautifully faceted and polished gem.

[Shinrei]

Resurrecting an old thread, but I just read this blogpost and found it pretty interesting and largely well articulated.

Be warned though, it is long.

http://slatestarcode...he-romanceless/

[EmperorMagus]

Mortal Sword of High House Decay, on 06 September 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Resurrecting an old thread, but I just read this blogpost and found it pretty interesting and largely well articulated.

Be warned though, it is long.

http://slatestarcode...he-romanceless/

I will not comment on the article as whole, because I'm in no way familiar with the issue discussed.

I can point out that the statistics on section VII of the article do not support the writer's points in any way; the group of people who have higher IQs and/or attend top universities generally spend more time on things such as studying or reading which do not lead to sexual intercourse. On the other hand, the average person is more likely to go hang out with friends in a public place, thus increasing his chances of meeting a girl. (total generalization, but you get my point. If you are studying in a university you had to have spent less time trying to find a girlfriend)

You can't quote statistics about how smarter people get laid less and point out how being smart means girls don't like you. More likely, the smart guy is home studying for tomorrow's test while the average guy is out on a date with his girlfriend.

[Shinrei]

EmperorMagus, on 06 September 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Mortal Sword of High House Decay, on 06 September 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Resurrecting an old thread, but I just read this blogpost and found it pretty interesting and largely well articulated.

Be warned though, it is long.

http://slatestarcode...he-romanceless/

I will not comment on the article as whole, because I'm in no way familiar with the issue discussed.

I can point out that the statistics on section VII of the article do not support the writer's points in any way; the group of people who have higher IQs and/or attend top universities generally spend more time on things such as studying or reading which do not lead to sexual intercourse. On the other hand, the average person is more likely to go hang out with friends in a public place, thus increasing his chances of meeting a girl. (total generalization, but you get my point. If you are studying in a university you had to have spent less time trying to find a girlfriend)

You can't quote statistics about how smarter people get laid less and point out how being smart means girls don't like you. More likely, the smart guy is home studying for tomorrow's test while the average guy is out on a date with his girlfriend.

That's a fair point, but I think that's largely unrelated to his overall point. If anything, he should have made that into a different post since it didn't really relate to the rest of what he was saying.