[Elwood]

HI everyone!!

I just finished HOC on my first read through of the series. So far I have enjoyed every book and have managed to get my best friend to read the first one (who is now hooked also!) after begging everyone I know to give it a shot.

Its been a few months before I started HOC after finishing MOI so I just want to write down my thoughts and anyone can feel free to say whether that's correct (or if I am just making up stories in my head).

To anyone that actually reads all this... Thankyou for your patience


So I will start with my thoughts on Karsa. Pretty much a bad ass right from the start, although I am under the impression that he has softened up somewhat at the end, as evidenced by releasing the shorn T'lan Imass into the ocean (speaking about mercy). Also his path to become worthy of leading Bairoth and Delum envoked emotions and I feel was a pivotal point in his changes and "growing up". So he is know the Knight in the House of Chains, although he doesn't willingly work for the crippled god and even gets in the way of his plans - by killing that evil dude Bael...whateverhisnameis and then fighting the 2 hounds (when the unchained told him not to), so I don't really see why you would want someone who will most likely do the opposite of what you ask him to be your Knight. Karsa really becomes a deliverer of harsh justice in the end. ALthough the crippled god would be pretty reluctant to release someone as powerful as Karsa. I presume Karsa is now an ascendent?


Karsa brings me to the next point. I have trouble defining Ascendancy as it seems to involve a range of different things. I am under the impression that anyone who is in a House (eg Knight, King, Queen, etc) has Ascended (correct?), but then we have characters such as Gesler, stormy and ... (one other who I dont think is mentioned as much in HOC) who become ascendents or are close to becoming them. This reminds me of the scene between Gesler and Coltaine which helped me understand how someone can ascend - I believe there was a conversation about ascendecy being the firm belief by an individual that they can't die or they have such a firm belief that they push past mortal barriers (or some such).

Which brings me to my observations and theories on Gesler and co. SO we know know they were in the Elder warren of Shadow on the ship then they followed an undead Soletaken dragon into Kurald Thyrllan and had fired breathed on them. I'm starting to get the impression that because of this event, all those who were on that ship began to lead remarkable lives because of they were becoming ascendants. My evidence is that Felisin wound up a vessel for a Goddess, Baudin became Knight of High House Death and Heboric is now Treachs Destriant - which leads me to conclude that big things are expected for Gesler and co. The reason that Gesler and co have bronze skin is because they were on the deck on the ship and in direct contact with the flames while the others were underneath. Holes in this theory include Kulp who died (although maybe we just haven't heard about him yet).




The obvious question is about the Hounds of Darkness. Those bad boys!! Obvious questions include (and yes I have read the deragoth topic in HOC thread) are they related to Hounds of Shadow, evidence being the fact that 2 were "alive" in the shrines/monuments/carvings (whatever you would call it) which could relate to the two that were 'freed' by Paran and jumped in Kurald Galain. So far I am under the impression that either the two hounds transformed (energy swap or some such) from shadow to Darkness when entering warren of darkness, oooorrrr for some reason I feel that from small snippets of conversation in the 4 books so far that Hounds of Shadow are the actual shadows of their Darkness counterparts - which might explain why the shadow hounds are smaller and presumably weaker - and that when the 2 Shadow went into Warren of Darkness they brought back their Darkness counterparts to life in the monuments.

That leads me to another possible theory which relates around the three Kurald warrens of Darness, Light and Shadow which might mean that there are 7 hounds of light aswell and that the hounds of shadow are smaller because they are a cross breed between light and darkness.

To make it even more chaotic, I don't think the 7 headed dog found by Icarium and described by Karsa after the fight scene has been mentioned in relation to the hounds of Darkness. So this could be some kind of shrine by the primitive humans to their 'masters' or is it intrinsic to the storyline in the future. Hmmm.

ALso I cant even be certain that the Deragoth are even related to Kurald Galain as there isn't a concrete link between them. There are numerous references to Dargjhodshfdhgfj (you know....) (that guy with the long name who ruled human empire before they all ritualized into soletaken/di'ivers) about him making a pact with the Deragoth, but then I have a feeling there is a quote somewhere about him becoming a di'ivers which consisted of 7 - suggesting that he became the Deragoth? Or the Shadow Hounds?


Who knows, no doubt I'm way off and looking into it far too indepth. But who knows with Erikson (Man-crushing on him).

Also are all the places filled in the Houses, such as Magi, Knights, etc - because I feel like even though we dont actually know all the characters it would be pretty silly to just have empty spots all the time.

Lastly, why isn't Shadowthrone sitting on the throne of shadow. Why is the Kurald Emurlahn throne on this world and not in the actual warren? Unless Drift Avalii is actually a fragment from the warren. Anyway, back to Shadowthrone. I thought you had to kill him to take his place as shadow ruler, not merely sit on his throne. I get the feeling that I haven't uunderstood everything that was in HOC relating to this. I believe he is trying to take over all the Houses and thrones, but doesn't want to have too much power too quickly as it will cause a massive convergence on his arse, so maybe he hasn't sat on the Shadow throne yet because of that. ALso something from MOI keeps popping up in my head that Shadowtrhrone isn't doesn't actually sit on the Kurald Emurlahn throne, but rather sits on a throne that is like a gatekeeping warren?? Sorry if this made things confusing?

Really lastly, the Otataral dragon. Really cool, although staking it to a cross seems excessive and smells like something someone heartless might do such as the T'lan Imass, although dragon footprints walk away from it so thats interesting. Could be the undead T'lan Imass soletaken dragon as elder warrens aren't affected by Otataral, althought again I get the feeling that otataral isn't what it seems. Then agaiin there were names left behind that killed the dragon, which is weird because weren't those names in the Kurald thryallan warren where the god lived while the otataral dragon was in the Impreial warren?

Really, really lastly. Osric says that he isn't actually a god of the Liosan, rather they make him out to be one. So I am feeling that he is basically the Tiste Liosan counterpart to Anomander Rake. - Also cool how they are both Soletaken dragon.


Goodluck sorting all this mess out, and thankyou for taking the time to read!

This post has been edited by Elwood: 20 September 2013 - 03:35 AM

[D'rek]

Elwood, on 20 September 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

HI everyone!!

I just finished HOC on my first read through of the series. So far I have enjoyed every book and have managed to get my best friend to read the first one (who is now hooked also!) after begging everyone I know to give it a shot.

Its been a few months before I started HOC after finishing MOI so I just want to write down my thoughts and anyone can feel free to say whether that's correct (or if I am just making up stories in my head).

To anyone that actually reads all this... Thankyou for your patience


So I will start with my thoughts on Karsa. Pretty much a bad ass right from the start, although I am under the impression that he has softened up somewhat at the end, as evidenced by releasing the shorn T'lan Imass into the ocean (speaking about mercy). Also his path to become worthy of leading Bairoth and Delum envoked emotions and I feel was a pivotal point in his changes and "growing up". So he is know the Knight in the House of Chains, although he doesn't willingly work for the crippled god and even gets in the way of his plans - by killing that evil dude Bael...whateverhisnameis and then fighting the 2 hounds (when the unchained told him not to), so I don't really see why you would want someone who will most likely do the opposite of what you ask him to be your Knight. Karsa really becomes a deliverer of harsh justice in the end. ALthough the crippled god would be pretty reluctant to release someone as powerful as Karsa. I presume Karsa is now an ascendent?

Yup. Karsa seems like a pretty bad choice doesn't he? Then again, even if he doesn't want to be the Knight of Chains, it doesn't seem like he has much choice or else he'd just relinquish it and have done. Furthermore, he seems to be chaining the souls of those he slays to himself, and he's obviously not doing it on purpose given how horrified he was to dream about that. So the Crippled God seems to have invested into him, too. The question is, what does The Crippled God really want him to do? Karsa helped the Seven of the Dead Fires (the Faces in the Rock) regain their old bodies and weapons, but the Crippled God also interceded around Karsa once before - when Karsa and Torvald were being transported by ship to Seven Cities, the CG sent a chain-lightning storm that damaged the ship and sent Karsa into the Nascent. Now why did the Crippled God do that? It bears some thinking about, but of course if you read on and find out (RAFO) you'll find out eventually...


Karsa brings me to the next point. I have trouble defining Ascendancy as it seems to involve a range of different things. I am under the impression that anyone who is in a House (eg Knight, King, Queen, etc) has Ascended (correct?), but then we have characters such as Gesler, stormy and ... (one other who I dont think is mentioned as much in HOC) who become ascendents or are close to becoming them. This reminds me of the scene between Gesler and Coltaine which helped me understand how someone can ascend - I believe there was a conversation about ascendecy being the firm belief by an individual that they can't die or they have such a firm belief that they push past mortal barriers (or some such).

There's not really any hard definition of Ascendant. Nor is there any hard definition of Godhood, other than simply having worshippers (as Karsa points out in this book, saying the Faces in the Rock were not gods because they did nothing for their followers). Ascendants are essentially equivalent to old Greek legendary heroes. At what point did Achilles go from being just a man to being an invincible warrior? Anyways, in the Malazanverse, it seems Ascendancy is just something you grow into, and as Baruk says in GotM there are many paths to get there. But once you are an Ascendant, you can be stronger or have other forms of power simply by sheer force of will. You might age less or stop being susceptible to ordinary disease. But depending on the nature of your Ascendancy, it doesn't necessarily make you any more able to survive a crossbow bolt in the neck or starvation in the desert. If you're also a God[dess] then you've potentially got worshippers feeding you more power in other ways. Or if you are an Ascendant who serves a God[dess] you might have additional power you can call upon through them. Plus many Ascendants are already able warriors or wizards...

Short answer: it's poetic and complicated

Personally, I wouldn't put too much faith in what any particular character says, either. Who says Sormo Enath has some masterful understanding of Ascendancy? So him saying Gesler and Stormy have "almost ascended" doesn't necessarily mean much of anything. Characters can and definitely are sometimes wrong! And you'll get more characters talking about who and what makes an Ascendant in the next books, too!

As for whether anyone who has a position in a High House is an Ascendant - not necessarily. Many Ascendants hold pseudo-permanent positions in the Houses (ie Rake has been Knight of Darkness for eons), but the god[desse]s in charge can pretty much have anyone they need to fulfill a certain role. There's also nothing saying you can't have more than one person fulfilling a particular role at a time. Maybe Shadowthrone decides to invest entirely in a single, highly-competent Magi of Shadow, or maybe he spreads it around to half a dozen mages who are all one of many Magi of Shadow. In some senses, it's the god[dess]'s House, they can do with it what they want!

But, this also ties in the Deck of Dragons, which uses cards depicting the roles of the pantheon, but not necessarily meaning directly the same people filling those roles. So when you do a Deck reading in Darujhistan and draw the Assassin of Shadow card, in that instance it's referring to something Vorcan is doing nearby, while across the world in Unta a simultaneous, different reading draws the Assassin in reference to something Topper is doing nearby, and then yet another simultaneous reading in Ehrlitan is actually referring to something Cotillion is doing because he is at a convergence in Ehrlitan!



Which brings me to my observations and theories on Gesler and co. SO we know know they were in the Elder warren of Shadow on the ship then they followed an undead Soletaken dragon into Kurald Thyrllan and had fired breathed on them. I'm starting to get the impression that because of this event, all those who were on that ship began to lead remarkable lives because of they were becoming ascendants. My evidence is that Felisin wound up a vessel for a Goddess, Baudin became Knight of High House Death and Heboric is now Treachs Destriant - which leads me to conclude that big things are expected for Gesler and co. The reason that Gesler and co have bronze skin is because they were on the deck on the ship and in direct contact with the flames while the others were underneath. Holes in this theory include Kulp who died (although maybe we just haven't heard about him yet).

Indeed, Kulp hasn't become much of anything so far. But he did have the bronzed skin (you're right that those on deck were the bronzed ones, though Felisin wasn't much affected because Baudin shielded her and then they jumped off).


The obvious question is about the Hounds of Darkness. Those bad boys!! Obvious questions include (and yes I have read the deragoth topic in HOC thread) are they related to Hounds of Shadow, evidence being the fact that 2 were "alive" in the shrines/monuments/carvings (whatever you would call it) which could relate to the two that were 'freed' by Paran and jumped in Kurald Galain. So far I am under the impression that either the two hounds transformed (energy swap or some such) from shadow to Darkness when entering warren of darkness, oooorrrr for some reason I feel that from small snippets of conversation in the 4 books so far that Hounds of Shadow are the actual shadows of their Darkness counterparts - which might explain why the shadow hounds are smaller and presumably weaker - and that when the 2 Shadow went into Warren of Darkness they brought back their Darkness counterparts to life in the monuments.

That leads me to another possible theory which relates around the three Kurald warrens of Darness, Light and Shadow which might mean that there are 7 hounds of light aswell and that the hounds of shadow are smaller because they are a cross breed between light and darkness.

To make it even more chaotic, I don't think the 7 headed dog found by Icarium and described by Karsa after the fight scene has been mentioned in relation to the hounds of Darkness. So this could be some kind of shrine by the primitive humans to their 'masters' or is it intrinsic to the storyline in the future. Hmmm.

ALso I cant even be certain that the Deragoth are even related to Kurald Galain as there isn't a concrete link between them. There are numerous references to Dargjhodshfdhgfj (you know....) (that guy with the long name who ruled human empire before they all ritualized into soletaken/di'ivers) about him making a pact with the Deragoth, but then I have a feeling there is a quote somewhere about him becoming a di'ivers which consisted of 7 - suggesting that he became the Deragoth? Or the Shadow Hounds?

There could be a connection between the Hounds of Shadow and the Deragoth, as you've certainly caught on to something that seems unlikely to be just a coincidence regarding the statues in the Nascent. However, the nature of that connection is not yet clear at this point in the books. One point I'll note is that based on L'oric's trip to a pocket memory warren of ancient Seven Cities in HoC, it seems there were far, far more than only 7 Deragoth, and Osric also notes that they have no connection to Mother Dark, while the Hounds of Shadow certainly seem directly connected to the Shadow realm.

Dessimbelackis was the Emperor of the (Human) First Empire. There are indeed references to him making a pact with the Deragoth, and also to him becoming D'ivers, possibly as part of the Beast Ritual that made all sorts of Soletaken and D'ivers from that Empire. A vision of the past that Kalam saw in HoC near Raraku was of soldiers from the First Empire, seemingly in rebellion against Dessimbelackis, saying that they had defeated and banished some of the "Holy Guardians" who they also refer to as "beasts"...


Who knows, no doubt I'm way off and looking into it far too indepth. But who knows with Erikson (Man-crushing on him).

Also are all the places filled in the Houses, such as Magi, Knights, etc - because I feel like even though we dont actually know all the characters it would be pretty silly to just have empty spots all the time.

Who knows? Most of the top gods of the pantheon don't seem to be lacking servants. We saw a servant of Hood in GotM who could open and close the Gate to Hood's realm and who constantly changed appearances - that could have been the Mason, for example, we just don't know it. The Crippled God seemed pretty quick to fill up his roster of positions for the new House of Chains. On the other hand, it'd be odd if we still haven't seen or heard of the Queen of Shadow if there was one, given how much we see of ST and Cotillion.


Lastly, why isn't Shadowthrone sitting on the throne of shadow. Why is the Kurald Emurlahn throne on this world and not in the actual warren? Unless Drift Avalii is actually a fragment from the warren. Anyway, back to Shadowthrone. I thought you had to kill him to take his place as shadow ruler, not merely sit on his throne. I get the feeling that I haven't uunderstood everything that was in HOC relating to this. I believe he is trying to take over all the Houses and thrones, but doesn't want to have too much power too quickly as it will cause a massive convergence on his arse, so maybe he hasn't sat on the Shadow throne yet because of that. ALso something from MOI keeps popping up in my head that Shadowtrhrone isn't doesn't actually sit on the Kurald Emurlahn throne, but rather sits on a throne that is like a gatekeeping warren?? Sorry if this made things confusing?

Crokus thinks that maybe Shadowthrone's plan is to sit on every throne and do nothing. Who knows if that is true, or not. Crokus barely believed it himself.

Why hasn't Shadowthrone sat on the "real" throne of Shadow? Would it make a difference if he did? There doesn't seem to be any alternative Shadow realm that he doesn't have control of, other than the fragments of Emurlahn floating around, and who's to say sitting on the Drift Avalii throne would have any effect on those?

Then again, since no one seems to have made claim to the Drift Avalii throne either (Andarist was defending it, but not claiming the power from it), who's to say ST hasn't snuck in and claimed it anyways? Being Shadow and sneaky and all, it'd be right up his alley to do that and completely conceal the fact that he had done so. Or alternatively, maybe he has just done his research and knows that it wouldn't benefit him at all to bother doing so.


Really lastly, the Otataral dragon. Really cool, although staking it to a cross seems excessive and smells like something someone heartless might do such as the T'lan Imass, although dragon footprints walk away from it so thats interesting. Could be the undead T'lan Imass soletaken dragon as elder warrens aren't affected by Otataral, althought again I get the feeling that otataral isn't what it seems. Then agaiin there were names left behind that killed the dragon, which is weird because weren't those names in the Kurald thryallan warren where the god lived while the otataral dragon was in the Impreial warren?

Really, really lastly. Osric says that he isn't actually a god of the Liosan, rather they make him out to be one. So I am feeling that he is basically the Tiste Liosan counterpart to Anomander Rake. - Also cool how they are both Soletaken dragon.

Well, we saw in this book that the Tiste Liosan pray to Osric and Father Light, but that Osric had had L'oric put a familiar in place to act in Osric's stead and fulfill the Liosan's prayers (which the T'lan Imass then hunted down and killed). Seems like the Liosan definitely pray to Osric (unlike Rake's followers, who do not worship him, just follow him) but Osric doesn't really want to be their god.

Goodluck sorting all this mess out, and thankyou for taking the time to read!

My comments in blue. You have some really good analysis and speculation, but I can't really confirm or deny anything - you'll just have to RAFO!

[Elwood]

Thanks d'rek, appreciate the detailed responses. You really know your stuff.

I guess a lot of the time questions are kind if redundant as most is explained further on. I never knew I could enjoy a series as much as this one!

So if oseric is a god, that would make him stronger than rake due to him being a god. Also him being champion of high house light means that there is a higher power than a god of an elder warren?
Is it strange for oseric to have spent time studying at moon's spawn, seeing how light and dark tiste don't like each other, or light don't like andii?

[Kanese S's]

Read and find out.

I will say that being a god has its drawbacks. There is more power, but there are also in some ways more limitations.

[D'rek]

Elwood, on 20 September 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

So if oseric is a god, that would make him stronger than rake due to him being a god.

Being a god[dess] doesn't necessarily make you stronger or better in any way. The distinction between being a god or not is essentially just semantics - you either have worshippers and are a god, or you don't and you aren't. Of course the most prominent gods like Fener, Burn or the Queen of Dreams have full-blown religions and priesthoods spread across numerous continents, giving them a lot of worship, and they have ways of using that worship to exert more influence than they otherwise would. But a remote river spirit in the middle of a wasteland with a single starving family of primitive people worshipping it is still a god, too, it just draws far less power from it's smaller "cult" of followers than a world-spanning religion.

Of course, each god[dess] often has their own personal capabilities from who and what they were before/without their godhood. Many of the more prominent gods and goddesses were once just Ascendants who roamed the land like Rake, Icarium or Karsa do, but later began to be worshipped. For an idea of how this sort of thing could start, there's some references across the first few books to Dassem Ultor being a mortal man who became the Knight of Death (and probably an Ascendant via that), then later renounced that position, all while the admiration of his troops started turning more into worship. Of course it probably helps if you don't get assassinated like he did.

So given that there's different kids of gods, with different kinds and levels of worshippers, and they could come from different pasts, plus as Kanese notes many have different drawbacks to their godhood, it's really pretty circumstantial whether a given god or Ascendant is more powerful than another god or Ascendant.

[Abyss]

Dryjhna was a god. Look how that worked out for her.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

So was Gozer!

[Abyss]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 21 September 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

So was Gozer!

You have to admit the whole 'choose the form of the destroyer' thing was pretty silly even before the marshmellow incident.

...which i suppose brings us back to the whole 'worshipers can really screw a god over' point, because Dryhja really didn't have much going for her by the time the Talon assassins showed up and the CG made his play.