[Daeg]

I will have to read that part again. I know that mok was disinterested in tool until tool mentioned he had defeated the 5th with the flat of his blade...I remember tool having doubts but I was sure that mok initiated the duel at a time when tool would have rather been doing something else....I was certain that all challenges were initiated by the segulah...I don't remember which book that was since I read them all one after another...I miss the paperback days when you could just thumb through a book

[Brujah]

Daeg, on 11 October 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Tool was the best Imass swordsman at the time of his challenge.....moc was the 3rd best segulah in his time...dassem was the best of all his people but never challenged tool.

A point missed here is this...Tool did not want to fight any of the segulah...all the challenges were initiated by the segulah. He did not fight for his life...he fought because he knew the challenges were unavoidable... He beat #5 using the flat of his blades...

Karsa's size and strength were incredible...but what made him so formidable was his ability to absorb pain and damage. He fights for glory and pride....

I think Tool is undoubtedly the better fighter but with his passive philosophy and karsa's size and his refusal to lay down and die it would only be a matter of time before karsa landed a blow that would spell the end for the superior fighter..

Who is this #5 ranked Segulah that you think Tool beat with he flat of his blades? Did i miss this? Unless you're talking about the part in MoI where Tool defeats Thurule, the 14 year old kid who was an 11th ranked INITIATE, and not anywhere close to being as skilled as Mok, whom Tool realizes right away would break his bones. Senu is the other segulah, who is 14 years old, and 11th ranked INITIATE as well.

In my opinion, Karsa would bend Tool over backwards.
Easy win for Karsa, fanboy aside.

[Brujah]

Dragnipurake, on 16 October 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

based on Karsa's reaction to watching the first swords (rake likely is the equivalent for the andii) fight, have to give this to Tool. Looks like 'first swords' are at a different level.

To Daeg, when undead Tool witnesses (ha) the skill of Mok in dismantling the kell hunter, he is the one who becomes anxious to determine who is the better swordsman of the two; Envy makes Mok unconscious to prevent Tool from challenging him.

Lol.

This is total crap. You should work for the Republican Party, with the way you spin the facts to fit your argument.

Karsa goes the entire series tearing giant, gaping holes in asses. Lizard asses. Mortal asses. Immortal asses. He doesn't discriminate. It isn't until the convergence in TtHs right after the GOD OF DEATH is slain, and we have THE TWO best swordsman in the series, who are also godlike, going at it in the middle of the street. There couldn't have been two better opponents to create the scene in shin Karsa finally sees something in this world that gives him that 'oh shite' moment.

You can't compare that to the part where a dumb skeleton watches THREE Segulah kill a Lizard Man. They kill a Kell Hunter. ALONE, Karsa kills a much bigger and more deadly Kchain Chemaille in the tower scene after meeting up with Samar Dev.

And Tool doesn't WANT to challenge Mok. He even thinks that Mok is more likely too good. It's that he feels it is duty to challenge anyone that might be better because he was once first sword a billion years ago when it was obviously much easier to achieve.

So I have to call horse shit on this post man, sorry.
But it is.

[Malaclypse]

When faced with a K'Chain Nah'ruk, having no knowledge of these creatures, Karsa throws his sword away and decides to have a wrestle with it.

Tool was almost always looking for an easy way out of existence, to the point of laying down and letting himself be killed for spurious reasons.

Need I say more?

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 19 October 2013 - 01:38 PM

[Daeg]

Brujah, on 19 October 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Daeg, on 11 October 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Tool was the best Imass swordsman at the time of his challenge.....moc was the 3rd best segulah in his time...dassem was the best of all his people but never challenged tool.

A point missed here is this...Tool did not want to fight any of the segulah...all the challenges were initiated by the segulah. He did not fight for his life...he fought because he knew the challenges were unavoidable... He beat #5 using the flat of his blades...

Karsa's size and strength were incredible...but what made him so formidable was his ability to absorb pain and damage. He fights for glory and pride....

I think Tool is undoubtedly the better fighter but with his passive philosophy and karsa's size and his refusal to lay down and die it would only be a matter of time before karsa landed a blow that would spell the end for the superior fighter..

Who is this #5 ranked Segulah that you think Tool beat with he flat of his blades? Did i miss this? Unless you're talking about the part in MoI where Tool defeats Thurule, the 14 year old kid who was an 11th ranked INITIATE, and not anywhere close to being as skilled as Mok, whom Tool realizes right away would break his bones. Senu is the other segulah, who is 14 years old, and 11th ranked INITIATE as well.

In my opinion, Karsa would bend Tool over backwards.
Easy win for Karsa, fanboy aside.

I looked up the reference and you are correct on senu for sure...14 yr old 11th level initiate...couldn't find anything on thurule in the 10 minutes i dedicated to the search...also read that anomandar rake is ranked 7th....so this may imply that tool would have been able to hold his own with rake, for a period of time at least. Though rake never attempted fight someone above 7th rank I am sure he was not maxxed at that point

[Vaddon Ra]

Karsa knows his limits. He would never beat Rake or Dassem. His acceptance of that means he has a good idea of the challenges real swordsmanship can present.

Real swordsmanship? But Rake and Dassem were beyond anyone XD, Karsa is described as being appalling in his skill so its fair to say up on the ladder of uber swordsmen he's almost to the top.... and his will is a match to anyone in the books, that's kinda his thing isn't it? So while he isn't of a speed to match rake or dassem... or even Icarium to be honest, he attacked far quicker than anyone Karsa had ever seen... although clearly not quick enough to block Karsa's death punch I feel it's fair to say Karsa would stand toe to toe with tool, angry or not.

that's the problem with this series.... so so many badass characters described with similar levels of dreadful skill and such... it's really up to Erikson to clarify this

[Vaddon Ra]

Daeg, on 19 October 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

I looked up the reference and you are correct on senu for sure...14 yr old 11th level initiate...couldn't find anything on thurule in the 10 minutes i dedicated to the search...also read that anomandar rake is ranked 7th....so this may imply that tool would have been able to hold his own with rake, for a period of time at least. Though rake never attempted fight someone above 7th rank I am sure he was not maxxed at that point

Senu isn't in the Agatii I feel, given his status as 11th level, Tool beat therule who's masked is described as being slightly less marked than Senu (but seg 5th would be 4 lines which is barely marked at all) so he's not remotely that high up. However as soon as he See's Mok's skill for the rest of the book he keeps saying that he 'has' to fight him for his status as 1st in the Imass cannot be up for question... so at this point Tool is actually needing to fight and not simply accepting a challenge. At the end of the book he is trying to save Toc but the challenge still stands and his conversation with Kaliva clearly points out that he didn't exactly slack off, simply put... Mok was far better and the time of the old ways is ended etc etc.

I like tool


But Karsa would win... he laughed his way to seguleh 12th.... I don't think anyone who laughs their way to that rank could ever be lacking skill

[Whiskey Bass]

im a fan of both these guys so i've had a hard time choosing between the two.

After much deliberation i too have decided to back Karsa,

Tool was very anxious to beat Mok at the time as imo he needed to prove his relevance and skill to himself, wether Mok was better, or not, he made Tool face self-doubt (possibly the first time in 300k years) regarding his Title of First Sword of the Imass and its relevance in the world at large.

Karsa Orlong, just because we havent read SE waxing lyrical about Karsa's Swordsmanship, that shouldn't be taken as meaning he has none

Karsa spent a good 80 years or so prooving his martial abilities against other Toblakai, and he considerd himself as the top warrior. He beat a Segulah and Rhulad and yes he used his physical attributes, (as you would) but he is a canny enougth fighter to know when and where to strike. His sheer size, mass and speed are a huge bonus not a hinderance.

[Daeg]

Karsa's claim to fame is his ability to withstand massive amounts of pain and damage while maintaining his aggressive qualities...the wounds he received on many occasions would not only have stopped almost any other person but they would have also ended their fighting career...if not killing them outright...unless karsa lost his head (literally) or any other limb its hard to see him losing any battle

[Kaamos]

I managed to read the title as "Karsa Orlong's Tool" from the distorting corner of my glasses. Seems I'm in the need of either a new pair eyes or a set of associative neurons.

[Vaddon Ra]

[/quote]

I looked up the reference and you are correct on senu for sure...14 yr old 11th level initiate...couldn't find anything on thurule in the 10 minutes i dedicated to the search...also read that anomandar rake is ranked 7th....so this may imply that tool would have been able to hold his own with rake, for a period of time at least. Though rake never attempted fight someone above 7th rank I am sure he was not maxxed at that point
[/quote]

Rake would probably have achieved top 3 easy peanuts with a rest day XD Envy says he left due to the relentless barrage of challenges and as they must have kept getting better and better he was exhausted. Tool got asshanded by Mok with Mok barely breaking a sweat... the first sword of the Imass is not up to par with Rake/Dassem or Karsa

[Malaclypse]

Daeg, on 20 October 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Karsa's claim to fame is his ability to withstand massive amounts of pain and damage while maintaining his aggressive qualities...the wounds he received on many occasions would not only have stopped almost any other person but they would have also ended their fighting career...if not killing them outright...unless karsa lost his head (literally) or any other limb its hard to see him losing any battle

This is preposterous. He's not a fucking vampire. Get a hold of yourself. (was tempted to insert a 'passive-aggressive smiley' there but refrained, will be ringing you at an unsociable hour to discuss at some point, Morgy

Vaddon Ra, on 21 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

I looked up the reference and you are correct on senu for sure...14 yr old 11th level initiate...couldn't find anything on thurule in the 10 minutes i dedicated to the search...also read that anomandar rake is ranked 7th....so this may imply that tool would have been able to hold his own with rake, for a period of time at least. Though rake never attempted fight someone above 7th rank I am sure he was not maxxed at that point

Rake would probably have achieved top 3 easy peanuts with a rest day XD Envy says he left due to the relentless barrage of challenges and as they must have kept getting better and better he was exhausted. Tool got asshanded by Mok with Mok barely breaking a sweat... the first sword of the Imass is not up to par with Rake/Dassem or Karsa

Is Tool even ranked in the Seguleh hierarchy? I don't think he is. Beating a couple of lowbies means virtually nothing in this scheme and Mok was far superior. In a literary sense, it would be an enjoyable contest to witness but there's no doubt who would win - Karsa wants it more - plain and simple - he has shit to do and Tool just wants to die with honour. Firmly imo. As for the rest, it's clumsy language but I agree.

[Daeg]

Malaclypse, on 25 October 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Daeg, on 20 October 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Karsa's claim to fame is his ability to withstand massive amounts of pain and damage while maintaining his aggressive qualities...the wounds he received on many occasions would not only have stopped almost any other person but they would have also ended their fighting career...if not killing them outright...unless karsa lost his head (literally) or any other limb its hard to see him losing any battle

This is preposterous. He's not a fucking vampire. Get a hold of yourself. (was tempted to insert a 'passive-aggressive smiley' there but refrained, will be ringing you at an unsociable hour to discuss at some point, Morgy

Vaddon Ra, on 21 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

I looked up the reference and you are correct on senu for sure...14 yr old 11th level initiate...couldn't find anything on thurule in the 10 minutes i dedicated to the search...also read that anomandar rake is ranked 7th....so this may imply that tool would have been able to hold his own with rake, for a period of time at least. Though rake never attempted fight someone above 7th rank I am sure he was not maxxed at that point

Rake would probably have achieved top 3 easy peanuts with a rest day XD Envy says he left due to the relentless barrage of challenges and as they must have kept getting better and better he was exhausted. Tool got asshanded by Mok with Mok barely breaking a sweat... the first sword of the Imass is not up to par with Rake/Dassem or Karsa

Is Tool even ranked in the Seguleh hierarchy? I don't think he is. Beating a couple of lowbies means virtually nothing in this scheme and Mok was far superior. In a literary sense, it would be an enjoyable contest to witness but there's no doubt who would win - Karsa wants it more - plain and simple - he has shit to do and Tool just wants to die with honour. Firmly imo. As for the rest, it's clumsy language but I agree.

Ummm...I'm not sure wtf you are talking about but if you read the entire thread I had picked karsa from the beginning.

My point has been simple...tool is probably a better swordsman but karsa's ability to take damage and keep fighting is extraordinary.

Tool did hang with mok for a small time...this doesn't mean he was ranked only that he must have been superb to have even survived any time at all...of course it helps that he was t'lan.

No one mentioned any ranking or vampirism or any other weird bullshit you seem to have gleaned from some pretty straight-forward typing..

Is this where I insert a passive-aggressive smiley?

[Kanese S's]

Daeg, on 16 October 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

I will have to read that part again. I know that mok was disinterested in tool until tool mentioned he had defeated the 5th with the flat of his blade...I remember tool having doubts but I was sure that mok initiated the duel at a time when tool would have rather been doing something else....I was certain that all challenges were initiated by the segulah...I don't remember which book that was since I read them all one after another...I miss the paperback days when you could just thumb through a book

Iron Bars initiated a duel in Return of the Crimson Guard.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

ok, here is my compulsory Karsa love, cuz unless somebody says Karsa vs Daseem or Rake I will always vote Karsa haha

....anyway....

Karsa is a very skilled fighter, people think he is dumb and just relies on brute strength but this is untrue. He learns, Fast! Probably the fastest of all characters. He bides his time against the Seguleh and against Rhulad. Yes he often wins in one shot, but thats because he fights the idiots who underestimate him. Against a superior swordsman like Tool he would wait, with his unbreakable defence and eventually eek out a perfect moment to strike, and that strike would be fatal. This would of course be current Karsa. It seems silly to say old or current anything really though. Becasue everybody could beat Dasseem as a baby lol. Just throwing that in there haha. Lets not forget that Karsas sword is essentially the God of Tlan Imass swords. It says as much when he forges it in the cave with the imass surrounding him. Tools sword is nothing in comparison. Karsa hasn't had a fight where he almost lost yet. He hasn't been tested, he has beat everybody, pretty damn easily. I am looking forward to a fight where he is tested. Then we will be able to make more informed decisions. A lot of the other swordsman we love to talk about get tested. Even Rake and Daseem have an awesome fight where it appeared to me that Rake might have been holding back (only because if he has the time to kill himself midfight, he must have had time to win or press more) but we talk of kallors and Karsas and Tools but we know (more or less) the limits of a lot of the comparisons but Karsa is an untested force to be reckoned with. I am afraid that these polls cannot be settled until Karsa fights a better guy, like an avowed like Bars, or Dasseem, or a high rank Seguleh. Until then, i will go with Karsa, he is Will personified, and you cannot break him! Witness.

Edit, also I have never actually seen Karsa truly hurt apart from when he was cut down at the slave camp next to his home turf before he became the dude he is today. When he fought the K'Chain and the Deregoth he seemed to shrug off everything. Dude got impaled by Rhulad but did it to win. I don't know what could actually kill him or even slow him down!

This post has been edited by Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai: 12 November 2013 - 09:30 AM

[Kanese S's]

I'm still calling it for Tool.

[Vaddon Ra]

Oh, Karsa is Seguleh 12th too, just throwing that in there, he did that while giggling to himself. Actually aside from Rake/Dassem,Karsa hasn't ever met anyone fast enough to put him off fighting. Tool would lose fast.

[Kanese S's]

Tool is just slightly under Mok. So no. He would not "lose fast." Also, again, he could just fall to dust and stab Karsa in the back. T'lan Imass are perfectly capable of fighting dirty.

[Brujah]

Yeah. Just like the SEVEN TLAN AMASS GODS who were all too scared to even face Karsa in the cave where he forged his Flint Sword. One vs 7 and Karsa raped the shit out of one, and left another sliced almost in half. The other 5 fled INTO THE DIRT. Yeah, that's how capable they are of fighting dirty. They're Tellan magic won't save them from the Beast that Karsa is. Also, after he spent so long in the desert of Rakaru, the same that forged the bridge burners and made Quick Ben what he is today, he became more powerful than any Imass could ever be. And especially after crafting the statues of the 7 Tlan Imass 'Gods', Karsa gained what, in my opinion, is a VAST superiority over many foes, but DEFINITELY the Imass.

Karsa is to the Imass as a Hot Blade is to butter.


Karsa. Once again, and with ease. This is the most, or close to the most lopsided pairing we have. Karsa would rape Tool so bad, tool would have to change his name to 'Tooled.'

[Kanese S's]

Any point you made is kinda nullified by your continuing use of the word "rape" in that manner. People, including myself, have told you many times in the past that it is not okay. The fact that you continue doing it means that either you are dumb as bricks, or doing it deliberately. Before I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt or even defend you when others said things, thinking maybe you were really a good guy who just didn't pay attention to how he talked. But that appears to not be the case. You are indeed the asshole you appear to be.

Fuck you, Brujah, you misogynist shitstain. Go die in a fire.