[The Crowned Evader]

I feel this would be a good match. Both are highly skilled, both carry swords of stone and both fight in a different style.

This scenario is nothing fancy. The two warriors meet in a large square in an empty city as they had arranged to settle an unknown score.

Who wins dear people??

[Aptorian]

Depends. Are we talking GotM Tool or are we talking later book Tool?

It we're talking about the former I think Karsa wins. If it is Angry Tool then I am not so sure Karsa survives.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 19 September 2013 - 08:53 PM

[D'rek]

I agree with Apt. A contest like this would, IMO, be as much about the will of each combatant as their physical fighting prowess. Dead-Tool did not have a lot of will, hence giving up against Raest and later Mok, but living-Tool or angry-dead-Tool were much more driven. I'll say:

Karsa > dead-Tool
Karsa = living-Tool
Karsa < angry-dead-Tool

[Vaddon Ra]

But Tool didnt give up against Mok... and he had reawakened a lot of his old desire and will to save Toc... hence carving through the entire Pannion Domin... Simply put, I'm afraid, Mok put him in his place and didn't take no sheet from no undead punk... Karsa would win.... every time

[Dolmen 2.0]

Karsa has only ever faced two real finesse swordsmen. That female Seguleh he fought in Letheras and rhulad himself were taken out easily enough as was Icarium(argument et al). I'd imagine the strategies employed against those two would not work against Tool though. Tool is not mad and is a zombie. He can take a hit or two if he had to.

Karsa knows his limits. He would never beat Rake or Dassem. His acceptance of that means he has a good idea of the challenges real swordsmanship can present.

Tool is a finesse swordsman with the unholy strength of an undead First Sword.

D'rek and Apt are quite right, His will really boosts his ability ALA Dassem with grief in his hands. Angry undead Tool seemed to bounce off damage. He would be super tough to take out. I am surprised the Imass do not dust-Hax mid fight. The potential medley of attacks would be epic and way more than Karsa could handle with a giant flint sword. Think slightly slower Mok with night crawler-esque teleportation. Maybe?

Well I actually don't have a decisive winner here either but I lean towards Tool because Oranges are Tangier than Apples.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 20 September 2013 - 11:55 AM

[Kanese S's]

I vote Tool because doing so will annoy Brujah.


Seriously, though, I'm thinking Tool on this one. He's faster than Karsa and can take hits. As for Karsa's previous opponents... taking out a high ranking Seguleh is impressive, but killing Rhulad really isn't. Many, many, many people have killed Rhulad. He's not a particularly good swordsman, compared to a lot of the other really notable sword-wielding characters, it's just that he had infinite lives. Karsa was simply the first opponent to figure out that he should cut off Rhulad's sword arm.

[theocean]

the way he took out Rhulad was impressive though, and with no real struggle at all... Karsa just seems like such a force. My fondness for him makes me pick him in though in this matchup. I hope we eventually get to see the seguleh in greater numbers and a chance to see the 1.

[Brujah]

Kanese S, on 20 September 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

I vote Tool because doing so will annoy Brujah.


Seriously, though, I'm thinking Tool on this one. He's faster than Karsa and can take hits. As for Karsa's previous opponents... taking out a high ranking Seguleh is impressive, but killing Rhulad really isn't. Many, many, many people have killed Rhulad. He's not a particularly good swordsman, compared to a lot of the other really notable sword-wielding characters, it's just that he had infinite lives. Karsa was simply the first opponent to figure out that he should cut off Rhulad's sword arm.

Lol.

Of the many battles we've seen here I've never been more sure of who I believe wins.

Karsa by landslide.

Karsa, wins with one swing of his enormous sword, which cuts through Tool's blade, and then his bones, leaves him flopping around on the dusty, dry earth.


MODGOD NOTICE OF TEXT REMOVED. YOU KNOW WHY AND YOU KNOW BETTER.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 23 September 2013 - 05:26 PM

[Brujah]

Even Tool looked worried facing that K'chain warrior that Mok decapitated, but Karsa single handedly man-handled that ancient k'chain that was hiding in the stone tower in that one town where he was with Samar Dev. Karsa also rips the heads off two Hounds of Dark. And the segulah he EASILY kills in letherii is almost a waste of his time. And knocking Icarium the fuck out can't be easy.

So Karsa. With the easiest victory of any pairing so far .

[Dolmen 2.0]

Brujah, on 22 September 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Even Tool looked worried facing that K'chain warrior that Mok decapitated, but Karsa single handedly man-handled that ancient k'chain that was hiding in the stone tower in that one town where he was with Samar Dev. Karsa also rips the heads off two Hounds of Dark. And the segulah he EASILY kills in letherii is almost a waste of his time. And knocking Icarium the fuck out can't be easy.

So Karsa. With the easiest victory of any pairing so far .

I hear what you're saying but it isn't quite like that...

Tool said he couldn't do what Mok did, that sword surgery was near perfect, Tool is not that intricate a bladesman. This was not a complaint that he could not handle a K'chain Kell Hunter. He went to fight Mok more to prove that intricate bladesmanship is not all there is, He wanted to prove he was still better in a fight without that level of skill, he faced Mok to prove his relevance. Karsa faced one Nahruk without any weapons or armour in hand. That's like facing a really big, extra tough grizzly bear/aligator type thing, even a few Malaz heavies pulled off a win against Nahruk, these fully armored and carrying shields and swords. The Nahruk are not the best warriors, they are not "bred" for that purpose like the Vegath or even the Kell. Tool with Mok, Senu and Therule faced an army that was bound to have a few undead Kell hunters running around amidst it. Its fair to say tool handled his part in that mess.

Ripping the heads of two hounds of Dark is classic Karsa. I doubt anyone in the series could pull that off as well...maybe Caladan brood or Urko? Still I grant you Karsas UFC skills are top level. The win against the Seguleh was a poor reflection of what a seguleh can do. That woman went immediately on the offensive and spared little thought to her own safety. We find that amongst the Seguleh these particular types rise quickly. Karsa was the wiser fighter and forced her mistakes, mistakes that would not have cost her if she had been as observant as Jan, as resilient as Rell or as Precise as Mok. Each Seguleh is different, she was the worst type to face Karsa.

The win against Icarium was a once off, a clean shot to an unsuspecting opponent. By that argument Mappo trumps them both which just is not true.. Karsa thinks in straight lines where everyone else thinks circles. perhaps you are right, a single swipe of the sword might obliterate tool, but tool isn,t a push over, he has faced armies as a living Imass, several attacks coming at him at once. Avoiding attacks from a gigantic flint sword seems Par for the course. I don't think Karsa would get him.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 22 September 2013 - 05:26 AM

[the broken]

This...is a difficult one. We've seen Karsa cut a T'lan in half, but Tool's sword is something special. Tool is not above using his dustform to attack, it's how he uses it in GOTM against the Barghast.

Rhulad is not easy prey. Brys did something exceptional,but his near equal Moroch Nevadd had to die to bring him down, and Bars notes that he will be a fighter to match skinner soon.

Secondly, about comparing an undead K'chain'che'malle to a living, highly confused Nah'ruk...being of the same species doesn't make them of the same ability. Would you say that someone who could beat Possum ( Human Assassin) is necessarily also able to beat Kalam ( human assassin)?

Tool isn't worried about facing a K'chain, he leaves it for the Seguleh (three on one) to make sure they are worth bringing along. If they can't beat it, they're no use to them. He just wasn't expecting them to be quite that good.

If Tool sits and waits for the attack, he might be cut in half, but he's also not siballe, and it's T'lan Imass stone v T'lan Imass stone here. He could easily just turn to dust and impale Karsa from behind, his style is quick kills.

Karsa v Seguleh: Karsa got lucky, he surprised her with his Goomba stomp. If she hadn't tried to block him, that could have been a long fight.

Verdict: Too close to call

This post has been edited by the broken: 22 September 2013 - 03:29 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

This is intriguing because these are are basically the same fighter (Karsa is a bit taller).

Flint/Chalcedony swords, "barbarian" types, and they both have a personal warren that can be useful in negating sorcery and adding them some ambiguoulsy defined power.

I voted Tool because he has some more experience in fighting different types. I'd be truly shocked if he's never had hand to hand combat with a TTT or Jaghut before.

Every swordfight we've seen Karsa have ended in one blow really, and I doubt that would happen to Tool.

I think its 6/5 tho.

[Brujah]

Dolmen+, on 22 September 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Brujah, on 22 September 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Even Tool looked worried facing that K'chain warrior that Mok decapitated, but Karsa single handedly man-handled that ancient k'chain that was hiding in the stone tower in that one town where he was with Samar Dev. Karsa also rips the heads off two Hounds of Dark. And the segulah he EASILY kills in letherii is almost a waste of his time. And knocking Icarium the fuck out can't be easy.

So Karsa. With the easiest victory of any pairing so far .

I hear what you're saying but it isn't quite like that...

Tool said he couldn't do what Mok did, that sword surgery was near perfect, Tool is not that intricate a bladesman. This was not a complaint that he could not handle a K'chain Kell Hunter. He went to fight Mok more to prove that intricate bladesmanship is not all there is, He wanted to prove he was still better in a fight without that level of skill, he faced Mok to prove his relevance. Karsa faced one Nahruk without any weapons or armour in hand. That's like facing a really big, extra tough grizzly bear/aligator type thing, even a few Malaz heavies pulled off a win against Nahruk, these fully armored and carrying shields and swords. The Nahruk are not the best warriors, they are not "bred" for that purpose like the Vegath or even the Kell. Tool with Mok, Senu and Therule faced an army that was bound to have a few undead Kell hunters running around amidst it. Its fair to say tool handled his part in that mess.

Ripping the heads of two hounds of Dark is classic Karsa. I doubt anyone in the series could pull that off as well...maybe Caladan brood or Urko? Still I grant you Karsas UFC skills are top level. The win against the Seguleh was a poor reflection of what a seguleh can do. That woman went immediately on the offensive and spared little thought to her own safety. We find that amongst the Seguleh these particular types rise quickly. Karsa was the wiser fighter and forced her mistakes, mistakes that would not have cost her if she had been as observant as Jan, as resilient as Rell or as Precise as Mok. Each Seguleh is different, she was the worst type to face Karsa.

The win against Icarium was a once off, a clean shot to an unsuspecting opponent. By that argument Mappo trumps them both which just is not true.. Karsa thinks in straight lines where everyone else thinks circles. perhaps you are right, a single swipe of the sword might obliterate tool, but tool isn,t a push over, he has faced armies as a living Imass, several attacks coming at him at once. Avoiding attacks from a gigantic flint sword seems Par for the course. I don't think Karsa would get him.

I hear what you're saying and I understand your points. They're all valid and very intriguing. However, in the cave where Karsa finally constructs his sword, this is the quote:

" Shortly thereafter, Karsa Orlong finally met his gods in the Jhag Odhan, who turned out to be T'lan Imass which were shattered in battle millennia earlier. They revealed to him that he was not just their pawn in their plans to regain physical form, but Karsa had also been made into the Knight of Chains. In a Tellann-infused sacred cavern, the seven Unbound T'lan Imass helped Karsa Orlong create an unbreakable sword of stone, into which the souls of Delum Thord and Bairoth Gild went, infusing it with bloodthirst. Karsa, now rearmed and faced with manifestations he could attack, shrugged off the facade of doing as the Unbound told him, and drove six of them off, further destroying the seventh, 'Siballe the Unfound. On his way out, he ran into the Tiste Edur warrior Trull Sengar and his T'lan Imass companion, Onrack. Karsa was not in a mood to kill them, and so the pair luckily survived."

Karsa had spent quite a while in the holy desert of Rakaru, the same desert that formed the bridgeburners, and the bridgeburners didn't stay as a guest anywhere near as long as Karsa. Here, Karsa also sculpted his 7 gods(t'LAN imass, although he didnt know this yet) as well as sculptures of his two fallen friends Bairoth Gild and Delum Thord. He gained immense power here as noted by the giant frog who chisel to become his friend.

So back to the sacred cave inside the Tellan Warren where he met his 'gods' for the first time. As stated, he killed the first 'god' t'lan imass quite easily and infused his flint sword with the souls of his dead friends. This sword , in my opinion, is one of the most powerful in all the land.

So here, Karsa SCARES off 6 of the 7 'Unbound' t'lan imass supposed 'gods'. And yes we know

[Abyss]

The way i see it, Karsa's key edge over Tool, living, is his strength. Both have speed, both have mad skills, both are very very clever warriors... so then it's down to unbreakable stone swords hammering away at each other like fuck until someone gets tired and slips enough so that the other warrior can tag him hard enough for a win, and there i go with Karsa because as a physical match up as the best examples of their respective species, Teblor > living Imass.

Undead Tool is tricker because he won't get tired or worn down and anything less than a dismembering hit is worthless because he'll keep fighting just as hard. In theory Karsa has to do enough damage to render Tool unable to fight, but Tool just has to bleed Karsa til he's slow enough to get a serious hit in. Tool vs Mok is the key info here... Mok, on skill and more or less human strength, beat Tool. Which suggests Karsa, at better than human strength and a similar/comparable skill level, should also win.

So overall Karsa takes this over Tool.

And then the two of them go drinking with Wolverine, who could have taken them both, blind drunk while smoking a cigar.

[the broken]

Abyss, on 23 September 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

The way i see it, Karsa's key edge over Tool, living, is his strength. Both have speed, both have mad skills, both are very very clever warriors... so then it's down to unbreakable stone swords hammering away at each other like fuck until someone gets tired and slips enough so that the other warrior can tag him hard enough for a win, and there i go with Karsa because as a physical match up as the best examples of their respective species, Teblor > living Imass.

Undead Tool is tricker because he won't get tired or worn down and anything less than a dismembering hit is worthless because he'll keep fighting just as hard. In theory Karsa has to do enough damage to render Tool unable to fight, but Tool just has to bleed Karsa til he's slow enough to get a serious hit in. Tool vs Mok is the key info here... Mok, on skill and more or less human strength, beat Tool. Which suggests Karsa, at better than human strength and a similar/comparable skill level, should also win.

So overall Karsa takes this over Tool.

And then the two of them go drinking with Wolverine, who could have taken them both, blind drunk while smoking a cigar.

Is Karsa actually very skilled? He's powerful as hell, but most of his fights rely on being an eight foot behemoth with an unbreakable sword, inhuman strength, speed, reach, and durability, and an immunity to infection and magic. When has he ever displayed a massive amount of skill at finesse fighting? Would he win many of his fights if he woke up tomorrow in, say, Brys' body? He is very clever, like when fighting that Seguleh, his style revolved around preventing her from having a chance to utilise her skills, but I'm not sure how actually skilled at swordfighting he is. Skilled as distinct from powerful, I mean. In

Tool is somebody special. He's the First Sword, not a run of the mill T'lan. If he tries to swordfight, it's down to whether he can avoid being cut in half. If he decides to break Karsa's ankles from dustform, things get interesting.

[Aptorian]

Karsa spent the first 80 (Teblor) years of his life fighting people with his size, strength and speed and lived. Humans by comparison are like children.

So basically, Karsa is Mike Tyson fighting in the little leagues.

Consider also that we've seen what even low level Seguleh can do, namely in Orb, Scepter, Throne. The fact that Karsa was able to neutralise the 11th so easily speaks volumes about his abilities. Not just his strength and speed but also his ability to analyse the fight.

I still think Tool wins. He's been the First Sword for 300,000 years. He's probably killed hundreds or thousands of Toblakai over the years. Karsa's strength and speed will not be the deciding factor, Tool can match that.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 23 September 2013 - 07:43 PM

[blackzoid]

the broken, on 23 September 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Would he win many of his fights if he woke up tomorrow in, say, Brys' body?

Thats very interesting. If they both woke up tomorrow in clones of Bry's body, who would win?
Tool I'm sure...by a country mile.

[Gothos]

I vote Karsa because fanboy.

In all seriousness though, Karsa may be one of those people where landing a blow against a zombie Tool wouldn't be just a flesh wound. Against a living-again Tool I think Karsa would fare awesomely due to Tool being somewhat used to hundreds of thousands of years of shrugging off blows to his body. The angry zombie Tool? I'm guessing it would be quite an important factor: how does Karsa's inhuman strength compare to Tool's inhuman strength... if Tool could manage a parry that wouldn't end with a broken skeleton.

Would love to see them have a go, though :-)

[Daeg]

Tool was the best Imass swordsman at the time of his challenge.....moc was the 3rd best segulah in his time...dassem was the best of all his people but never challenged tool.

A point missed here is this...Tool did not want to fight any of the segulah...all the challenges were initiated by the segulah. He did not fight for his life...he fought because he knew the challenges were unavoidable... He beat #5 using the flat of his blades...

Karsa's size and strength were incredible...but what made him so formidable was his ability to absorb pain and damage. He fights for glory and pride....

I think Tool is undoubtedly the better fighter but with his passive philosophy and karsa's size and his refusal to lay down and die it would only be a matter of time before karsa landed a blow that would spell the end for the superior fighter..

[Dragnipurake]

based on Karsa's reaction to watching the first swords (rake likely is the equivalent for the andii) fight, have to give this to Tool. Looks like 'first swords' are at a different level.

To Daeg, when undead Tool witnesses (ha) the skill of Mok in dismantling the kell hunter, he is the one who becomes anxious to determine who is the better swordsman of the two; Envy makes Mok unconscious to prevent Tool from challenging him.

This post has been edited by Dragnipurake: 16 October 2013 - 05:09 AM