[gandrin]

I have several questions. Some might be obvious if I had read MBotF more recently. Others may still be unanswered.


1.What is going on with the Crimson Guard? (This most obvious question is clearly left as a cliffhanger for Assail)

2. What did Osserc do and where? Was that a second crater? Did he help Saeng or was it something different? Seems he got smashed by something, but it seems like Kallor got hit instead.

3. What in the world is that stuff about Kurald Liosan? Does it have anything to do with the ones fighting the Shake? Seems unlikely (that battle should be over by then)

4. Who was that woman who Shimmer saw during the original Crimson Guard vow ritual?

5. What did Old Man Moon actually DO? I thought perhaps Saeng healed him after the moon got smashed. I noted this book did not talk about the moon breaking up, but I think in MBotF it seemed to reform...maybe she did that?

6. Was that story about the Aren Fist and Yusen discussed anywhere else?

7. What did Ardata want from Skinner and then from K'azz? For that matter, what was Ardata doing in the first place? Just stuck in the past? There is an interesting similarity between T'riss and Ardata learned in FoD, but I'm not sure how that relates.

8. What happened to the shard Skinner had (I assume it just melted like Spite's)?

9. What was the deal between Skinner and the Herald (?) of House Death way back in MBotF ("SKIIIINNNNNEEEERRRRR!!!") That seemed intriguing, now it's lost. For that matter why was Skinner such a boring oaf?

10. Does this account for all the shards?

11. What of all the monsters? The panther man, the worms, etc. Is T'riss going to stay there? Seems unlikely.

12. Why did Kallor's subjects love him? That may have been the most surprising thing of all.

[Abyss]

gandrin, on 19 September 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

I have several questions. Some might be obvious if I had read MBotF more recently. Others may still be unanswered.


1.What is going on with the Crimson Guard? (This most obvious question is clearly left as a cliffhanger for Assail)

You answered your own q.

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2. What did Osserc do and where? Was that a second crater? Did he help Saeng or was it something different? Seems he got smashed by something, but it seems like Kallor got hit instead.

Ossi intercepted the Jade chunks before they could hit and cause another Fall-level catastrophe.
Some parts still got through and hit Kallor but not hard enuf to take him out. That was the first crater. Ossi's impact was the second.

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3. What in the world is that stuff about Kurald Liosan? Does it have anything to do with the ones fighting the Shake? Seems unlikely (that battle should be over by then)

There are more than one faction of Liosan. One was invading Kharkanas in TCG. Another was trying to fix the rift seen in SW.

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4. Who was that woman who Shimmer saw during the original Crimson Guard vow ritual?

Best guesses are Olar Ethil or Kilava.

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5. What did Old Man Moon actually DO? I thought perhaps Saeng healed him after the moon got smashed. I noted this book did not talk about the moon breaking up, but I think in MBotF it seemed to reform...maybe she did that?

The link to the busted Moon isn't clear, if any.

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6. Was that story about the Aren Fist and Yusen discussed anywhere else?

If you mean in another book, no.

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7. What did Ardata want from Skinner and then from K'azz? For that matter, what was Ardata doing in the first place? Just stuck in the past? There is an interesting similarity between T'riss and Ardata learned in FoD, but I'm not sure how that relates.

Ardata wanted a partner. Skinner broke up with her and didn't want to re-unite and Kazz wasn't interested.

Triss and Ardata were sisters.

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8. What happened to the shard Skinner had (I assume it just melted like Spite's)?

What shard? ...the only chunk of CG in the book bonded with the jungle at the end.

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9. What was the deal between Skinner and the Herald (?) of House Death way back in MBotF ("SKIIIINNNNNEEEERRRRR!!!") That seemed intriguing, now it's lost.

Unknown. But don't assume it's lost. We saw that dead doesn't mean dead with the Guard.

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For that matter why was Skinner such a boring oaf?

I blame MTV.

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10. Does this account for all the shards?

Unknown. We don't even know what the Riders did with the Shard they pursued back in SW, or how many more may be around.

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11. What of all the monsters? The panther man, the worms, etc. Is T'riss going to stay there? Seems unlikely.

The jungle remains and now it's got a level of sentience. It doesn't need Triss.

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12. Why did Kallor's subjects love him? That may have been the most surprising thing of all.

No accounting for taste.

[Kanese S's]

gandrin, on 19 September 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

1.What is going on with the Crimson Guard? (This most obvious question is clearly left as a cliffhanger for Assail)

The same thing that happened to the last major group that made an unbreakable vow. Or similar, anyway.

[gandrin]

Abyss, on 19 September 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Ossi intercepted the Jade chunks before they could hit and cause another Fall-level catastrophe.
Some parts still got through and hit Kallor but not hard enuf to take him out. That was the first crater. Ossi's impact was the second.

I agree that's what appeared to happen in that chapter... except that's not what anybody else saw. In TCG you are led to think something else happened entirely, and before that you are led to believe Saeng did it

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There are more than one faction of Liosan. One was invading Kharkanas in TCG. Another was trying to fix the rift seen in SW.

I think this portrayal of Liosan REALLY differs from the others. I don't remember Liosan in Stonewielder

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What shard? ...the only chunk of CG in the book bonded with the jungle at the end.

Skinner had a shard in the silver box from Korel. That's the one Spite stole I believe (I'd forgotten she took it from them). The Malazans had a shard from the Dolmens that bonded, but we never see what happens to it. There is the one from the hole in Stonewielder that those creatures took who-knows-where. I think in SW they mentioned something about another piece somewhere.

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don't assume it's lost. We saw that dead doesn't mean dead with the Guard.

Or the Bridgeburners. Or Hood. Or Draconus, or Toc. Or....



Some other questions:

I assumed this book would shed light on Kallor's exceptional feud with the Thel Akai in RotCG (when they first found K'azz). Barely a peep.

What about all that stuff with K'azz and the Dolmens at the beginning? That is why K'azz decides to go ("that MUST not happen...") ...yet he didn't even pay a flick of attention to them or the shards.

[Abyss]

gandrin, on 20 September 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Abyss, on 19 September 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Ossi intercepted the Jade chunks before they could hit and cause another Fall-level catastrophe.
Some parts still got through and hit Kallor but not hard enuf to take him out. That was the first crater. Ossi's impact was the second.

I agree that's what appeared to happen in that chapter... except that's not what anybody else saw. In TCG you are led to think something else happened entirely, and before that you are led to believe Saeng did it

I don't follow you. In TCG every available chunk of the Cg was re-attached to him and then Cotillion killed his body and sent his energy up to the passing Jade chunks.

In BnB the Mages tried to redirect one of the Jade Chunks to land on Kallor. Saeng interfered and slowed/redirected the chunk and removed the Light they were using to power it. Then Ossi intercepted it. If Seang hadn't done that Ossi's effort may have failed and the continent would have had a Fall.

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There are more than one faction of Liosan. One was invading Kharkanas in TCG. Another was trying to fix the rift seen in SW.

I think this portrayal of Liosan REALLY differs from the others. I don't remember Liosan in Stonewielder

Yes, because it's a different faction with different goals.

In SW Kiska, with Leoman along, is looking for Tayschrenn who was lost during RCG. Their storyline ends with them finding a bunch of Liosan, including Loric, trying to close the rift Yath opened in RCG. Kiska and Leoman escape through the rift and end up near the Vitr where we see them again in OST.

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What shard? ...the only chunk of CG in the book bonded with the jungle at the end.

Skinner had a shard in the silver box from Korel. That's the one Spite stole I believe (I'd forgotten she took it from them). The Malazans had a shard from the Dolmens that bonded, but we never see what happens to it. There is the one from the hole in Stonewielder that those creatures took who-knows-where. I think in SW they mentioned something about another piece somewhere.

I'm blanking here... didn't Skinner and co find a shard on the sunken city with the crabmen and the robot. is that the one you mean?

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don't assume it's lost. We saw that dead doesn't mean dead with the Guard.

Or the Bridgeburners. Or Hood. Or Draconus, or Toc. Or....

Exactly.

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Some other questions:


I assumed this book would shed light on Kallor's exceptional feud with the Thel Akai in RotCG (when they first found K'azz). Barely a peep.

That's not a question.

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What about all that stuff with K'azz and the Dolmens at the beginning? That is why K'azz decides to go ("that MUST not happen...") ...yet he didn't even pay a flick of attention to them or the shards.

Not following you here. I may not be remembering some fine details, but iirc Kazz went because Ardata asked him to help and pointed out the Guard was involved. He was never there for the shards.

[worry]

I could be wrong, but isn't the first shard that Skinner and co. collect taken by the shaman who works for TCG and successfully delivered? I'm pretty sure there's a period where the shaman is gone and Mara (I think? She's the main POV with them right?) is feeling kinda relieved by his absence.

[Abyss]

worry, on 20 September 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

I could be wrong, but isn't the first shard that Skinner and co. collect taken by the shaman who works for TCG and successfully delivered? I'm pretty sure there's a period where the shaman is gone and Mara (I think? She's the main POV with them right?) is feeling kinda relieved by his absence.

That rings a bell. Makes sense.

[nacht]

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What shard? ...the only chunk of CG in the book bonded with the jungle at the end.

Skinner had a shard in the silver box from Korel. That's the one Spite stole I believe (I'd forgotten she took it from them). The Malazans had a shard from the Dolmens that bonded, but we never see what happens to it. There is the one from the hole in Stonewielder that those creatures took who-knows-where. I think in SW they mentioned something about another piece somewhere.

Skinner is given multiple missions by the Crippled God to retrieve the shards from different places

1. First they go to the Dolmens of Tien, where Spite was trapped and the malazans escaped with the shard.

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Skinner shook his head. 'They have entered Himatan. There is no finding them now. The jungle will deal with them. We will wait. Your treasure will be found among their bones.'
The priest grew still. He gnashed his yellowed rotten teeth. 'What? You refuse? Very well then. I demand you accompany me to another! Now. Immediately.'

2 .Then they go to the Meckros city where they fight the Automaton (King Veng)

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Bronze parted shrieking and something fell to the sands. The body slumped, suddenly quiescent. The priest dived upon the object, cackling and chuckling, and wrapped it round and round with rags.

3. Finally they retrieve the shard from the island in Korel

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What about all that stuff with K'azz and the Dolmens at the beginning? That is why K'azz decides to go ("that MUST not happen...") ...yet he didn't even pay a flick of attention to them or the shards.

You are right.. It does seem ICE lost this thread but if you follow the story the Dolmen has already been breached by the time K'azz meets Ardata. Basically K'azz was too late in stopping the attempt even if he wished that nobody did so. In addition his reaction could be attributed to the fact that he spent an a very long time trapped there

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'You know my mistress's powers as seer and prophetess. She has foreseen that soon there shall be an attempt upon the Dolmens of Tien. What say you to that, K'azz? Can that be allowed?'

At first this obscure warning meant nothing to Shimmer. Then she remembered where she'd heard that odd name before: the very locale where K'azz had been imprisoned in the lands of Jacuruku. Her attention snapped to him and she was shocked to see his reaction: he had gone chalky white and his shoulders visibly bowed as if beneath a crushing burden. He shook his head in denial. 'That mustn't happen,' he finally grated, his voice thick.

Rutana's smile revealed a hungry triumph. 'My mistress is in agreement with that, Prince.'

'You've made your point, Witch.' He turned to Shimmer. 'Summon the Avowed. I sail for Jacuruku.' And he walked away.

[gandrin]

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I don't follow you. In TCG every available chunk of the Cg was re-attached to him and then Cotillion killed his body and sent his energy up to the passing Jade chunks.

I think TCG mentions something about it not being every single chunk. Or possibly that was in SW. But whatever the case, we know they did NOT have every chunk--Spite had one that disintegrated, and the Malazans had one that joined with the jungle spirit. And nothing is said about what happened to the box they were carrying as far as I know.

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In BnB the Mages tried to redirect one of the Jade Chunks to land on Kallor. Saeng interfered and slowed/redirected the chunk and removed the Light they were using to power it. Then Ossi intercepted it. If Seang hadn't done that Ossi's effort may have failed and the continent would have had a Fall.

I think it's pretty clear that "a" chunk most certainly did hit Kallor. It totally pummelled him, but he survived. There is a crater, smoking ash, and a very smashed Kallor in the middle of it that the prince and the Trell found.
But then we see that Spite and L'oric are at what must be 'another' crater, far removed from everything else (and who knows whether it was even in the same world/warren), where Osserc is lying flattened. That means there were either 2 fragments, or one fragment that hit in two dimensions, or (unlikely) that Osserc was lying there next to Kallor, unseen by all. Or perhaps Osserc was hit by the main fragment, and the description of stuff around him wasn't from that fragment hitting the earth. Maybe just from him getting smashed down to earth?

Anyway, in TCG we are led to believe that the Jade Banner diverted itself after TCG was restored--that the whole purpose of Tavore's massive plan was to release him just in time so that his "buddies" wouldn't come smash the earth looking for him. In other words, the Bonehunters save the world in TCG by freeing him. But Saeng and Osserc save the world in BnB by pushing it away. These two things do not agree. You might say they were coincident and complementary, but iirc the way it's described in TCG really makes it seem like the Jade would have hit if they hadn't freed TCG (correct me if I'm wrong). What happens in BnB makes the Bonehunters mission less important.

[Abyss]

gandrin, on 23 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

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I don't follow you. In TCG every available chunk of the Cg was re-attached to him and then Cotillion killed his body and sent his energy up to the passing Jade chunks.

I think TCG mentions something about it not being every single chunk. Or possibly that was in SW. But whatever the case, we know they did NOT have every chunk--Spite had one that disintegrated, and the Malazans had one that joined with the jungle spirit. And nothing is said about what happened to the box they were carrying as far as I know.

Agreed and TCG is pretty clear on that. At a minimum at least a couple of Great Ravens didn't join the party.
But i think the box was sent to the body at TCG.

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In BnB the Mages tried to redirect one of the Jade Chunks to land on Kallor. Saeng interfered and slowed/redirected the chunk and removed the Light they were using to power it. Then Ossi intercepted it. If Seang hadn't done that Ossi's effort may have failed and the continent would have had a Fall.

I think it's pretty clear that "a" chunk most certainly did hit Kallor. It totally pummelled him, but he survived. There is a crater, smoking ash, and a very smashed Kallor in the middle of it that the prince and the Trell found.
But then we see that Spite and L'oric are at what must be 'another' crater,... just from him getting smashed down to earth?

I think you have the answer there. Ossi's impact caused the second crater.

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Anyway, in TCG we are led to believe that the Jade Banner diverted itself after TCG was restored--that the whole purpose of Tavore's massive plan was to release him just in time so that his "buddies" wouldn't come smash the earth looking for him. In other words, the Bonehunters save the world in TCG by freeing him. But Saeng and Osserc save the world in BnB by pushing it away. These two things do not agree. You might say they were coincident and complementary, but iirc the way it's described in TCG really makes it seem like the Jade would have hit if they hadn't freed TCG (correct me if I'm wrong). What happens in BnB makes the Bonehunters mission less important.

Disagree.

We always knew there were more than one Jade chunk passing by, and the majority of the latest batch were where they were supposed to be when Cots 'released' the CG.

The Mages redirected one chunk that they intended to drop on Kallor, regardless of what the impact would do. Saeng and Ossi interferred with that plan and instead of another broken continent, Kallor got scorched and Ossi took a beating.

[Bloody9]

gandrin, on 23 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

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I don't follow you. In TCG every available chunk of the Cg was re-attached to him and then Cotillion killed his body and sent his energy up to the passing Jade chunks.

I think TCG mentions something about it not being every single chunk. Or possibly that was in SW. But whatever the case, we know they did NOT have every chunk--Spite had one that disintegrated, and the Malazans had one that joined with the jungle spirit. And nothing is said about what happened to the box they were carrying as far as I know.

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In BnB the Mages tried to redirect one of the Jade Chunks to land on Kallor. Saeng interfered and slowed/redirected the chunk and removed the Light they were using to power it. Then Ossi intercepted it. If Seang hadn't done that Ossi's effort may have failed and the continent would have had a Fall.

I think it's pretty clear that "a" chunk most certainly did hit Kallor. It totally pummelled him, but he survived. There is a crater, smoking ash, and a very smashed Kallor in the middle of it that the prince and the Trell found.
But then we see that Spite and L'oric are at what must be 'another' crater, far removed from everything else (and who knows whether it was even in the same world/warren), where Osserc is lying flattened. That means there were either 2 fragments, or one fragment that hit in two dimensions, or (unlikely) that Osserc was lying there next to Kallor, unseen by all. Or perhaps Osserc was hit by the main fragment, and the description of stuff around him wasn't from that fragment hitting the earth. Maybe just from him getting smashed down to earth?

Anyway, in TCG we are led to believe that the Jade Banner diverted itself after TCG was restored--that the whole purpose of Tavore's massive plan was to release him just in time so that his "buddies" wouldn't come smash the earth looking for him. In other words, the Bonehunters save the world in TCG by freeing him. But Saeng and Osserc save the world in BnB by pushing it away. These two things do not agree. You might say they were coincident and complementary, but iirc the way it's described in TCG really makes it seem like the Jade would have hit if they hadn't freed TCG (correct me if I'm wrong). What happens in BnB makes the Bonehunters mission less important.

That was my belief as well. I thought we got 2 different looks at how the jade banner was thwarted.


I had a couple questions myself. Some may have been answered and I may have forgot. Some may be mysteries?

1. How did Spite get entombed in the Dolems? I thought the last we saw her she was having an epic mage battle with her sister Envy in Darijuhistan?

2. Do we know who originally entombed K'azz at the Dolems?

3. When Cowl was released from the Malaz Isle Azath house we learned there were Azathanians buried there, as well as Ossi's daughter. Any idea who they are ?

[tiam]

Bloody9, on 23 July 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

gandrin, on 23 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

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I don't follow you. In TCG every available chunk of the Cg was re-attached to him and then Cotillion killed his body and sent his energy up to the passing Jade chunks.

I think TCG mentions something about it not being every single chunk. Or possibly that was in SW. But whatever the case, we know they did NOT have every chunk--Spite had one that disintegrated, and the Malazans had one that joined with the jungle spirit. And nothing is said about what happened to the box they were carrying as far as I know.

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In BnB the Mages tried to redirect one of the Jade Chunks to land on Kallor. Saeng interfered and slowed/redirected the chunk and removed the Light they were using to power it. Then Ossi intercepted it. If Seang hadn't done that Ossi's effort may have failed and the continent would have had a Fall.

I think it's pretty clear that "a" chunk most certainly did hit Kallor. It totally pummelled him, but he survived. There is a crater, smoking ash, and a very smashed Kallor in the middle of it that the prince and the Trell found.
But then we see that Spite and L'oric are at what must be 'another' crater, far removed from everything else (and who knows whether it was even in the same world/warren), where Osserc is lying flattened. That means there were either 2 fragments, or one fragment that hit in two dimensions, or (unlikely) that Osserc was lying there next to Kallor, unseen by all. Or perhaps Osserc was hit by the main fragment, and the description of stuff around him wasn't from that fragment hitting the earth. Maybe just from him getting smashed down to earth?

Anyway, in TCG we are led to believe that the Jade Banner diverted itself after TCG was restored--that the whole purpose of Tavore's massive plan was to release him just in time so that his "buddies" wouldn't come smash the earth looking for him. In other words, the Bonehunters save the world in TCG by freeing him. But Saeng and Osserc save the world in BnB by pushing it away. These two things do not agree. You might say they were coincident and complementary, but iirc the way it's described in TCG really makes it seem like the Jade would have hit if they hadn't freed TCG (correct me if I'm wrong). What happens in BnB makes the Bonehunters mission less important.

That was my belief as well. I thought we got 2 different looks at how the jade banner was thwarted.


I had a couple questions myself. Some may have been answered and I may have forgot. Some may be mysteries?

1. How did Spite get entombed in the Dolems? I thought the last we saw her she was having an epic mage battle with her sister Envy in Darijuhistan?

2. Do we know who originally entombed K'azz at the Dolems?

3. When Cowl was released from the Malaz Isle Azath house we learned there were Azathanians buried there, as well as Ossi's daughter. Any idea who they are ?

1- Spite left after Brood turned up. Doesnt she leave with Cutter on the ship infact?

2- Cowl and Skinner most likely

3- There mentioned as ahving Azathanai blood so could be any number of bastard sons.

[Andorion]

tiam, on 23 July 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

Bloody9, on 23 July 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

gandrin, on 23 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

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I don't follow you. In TCG every available chunk of the Cg was re-attached to him and then Cotillion killed his body and sent his energy up to the passing Jade chunks.

I think TCG mentions something about it not being every single chunk. Or possibly that was in SW. But whatever the case, we know they did NOT have every chunk--Spite had one that disintegrated, and the Malazans had one that joined with the jungle spirit. And nothing is said about what happened to the box they were carrying as far as I know.

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In BnB the Mages tried to redirect one of the Jade Chunks to land on Kallor. Saeng interfered and slowed/redirected the chunk and removed the Light they were using to power it. Then Ossi intercepted it. If Seang hadn't done that Ossi's effort may have failed and the continent would have had a Fall.

I think it's pretty clear that "a" chunk most certainly did hit Kallor. It totally pummelled him, but he survived. There is a crater, smoking ash, and a very smashed Kallor in the middle of it that the prince and the Trell found.
But then we see that Spite and L'oric are at what must be 'another' crater, far removed from everything else (and who knows whether it was even in the same world/warren), where Osserc is lying flattened. That means there were either 2 fragments, or one fragment that hit in two dimensions, or (unlikely) that Osserc was lying there next to Kallor, unseen by all. Or perhaps Osserc was hit by the main fragment, and the description of stuff around him wasn't from that fragment hitting the earth. Maybe just from him getting smashed down to earth?

Anyway, in TCG we are led to believe that the Jade Banner diverted itself after TCG was restored--that the whole purpose of Tavore's massive plan was to release him just in time so that his "buddies" wouldn't come smash the earth looking for him. In other words, the Bonehunters save the world in TCG by freeing him. But Saeng and Osserc save the world in BnB by pushing it away. These two things do not agree. You might say they were coincident and complementary, but iirc the way it's described in TCG really makes it seem like the Jade would have hit if they hadn't freed TCG (correct me if I'm wrong). What happens in BnB makes the Bonehunters mission less important.

That was my belief as well. I thought we got 2 different looks at how the jade banner was thwarted.


I had a couple questions myself. Some may have been answered and I may have forgot. Some may be mysteries?

1. How did Spite get entombed in the Dolems? I thought the last we saw her she was having an epic mage battle with her sister Envy in Darijuhistan?

2. Do we know who originally entombed K'azz at the Dolems?

3. When Cowl was released from the Malaz Isle Azath house we learned there were Azathanians buried there, as well as Ossi's daughter. Any idea who they are ?

1- Spite left after Brood turned up. Doesnt she leave with Cutter on the ship infact?

2- Cowl and Skinner most likely

3- There mentioned as ahving Azathanai blood so could be any number of bastard sons.

Spite got entombed in the Dolmens when she tried to retrieve the TCG piece kept confined there. Beginning of B&B if I am not wrong.

[Luperci]

I've always been sort of confused on the Thaumaturgs origins and the relationship with Kallor/CG.

So....

They call down the Shattered God to defeat Kallor and stop him from dominating the who Continent, but what warren or ritual did these Mages use for such a feat? I was always under the assumption that since they worshipped(kind of) the CG that they would be using Chaos as the source of their power but we see in the end of B&B that Chaos actually consumes the Inner Circle of Nine. When the warrens are mentioned by the Turgs they remark on the alienness of them so it would appear K'rul is not someone who they are familiar with yet he is responsible for the continued existence of the most ancient of enemies who's name is forbidden to speak of. Why is it almost taboo to mention the history of kallor and their calling down of the CG its obvious this was down in the far past since their modern day culture only speaks of this in rumors and secrets.

I'm assuming that Kallor was cursed before the arrival of the Crippled God? Or was it after, it seems like a bad move to prolong the life of the man responsible for the giant Shitstorm that all the Gods and Ascendants are caught up with for the majority of these stories.


.

[D'rek]

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

They call down the Shattered God to defeat Kallor and stop him from dominating the who Continent, but what warren or ritual did these Mages use for such a feat? I was always under the assumption that since they worshipped(kind of) the CG that they would be using Chaos as the source of their power but we see in the end of B&B that Chaos actually consumes the Inner Circle of Nine. When the warrens are mentioned by the Turgs they remark on the alienness of them so it would appear K'rul is not someone who they are familiar with yet he is responsible for the continued existence of the most ancient of enemies who's name is forbidden to speak of. Why is it almost taboo to mention the history of kallor and their calling down of the CG its obvious this was down in the far past since their modern day culture only speaks of this in rumors and secrets.

I don't think the thaumaturgs worhsip the CG at all. I think their magic source is the blood and ritual magic, like what we see used by the Wickans or occasionally by QB or Bottle - the ancient spirit magics that are not related to warrens at all. The thaumaturgs seem to have spent eons researching and advancing their spirit magic as far as they can take it, in horrifying ways.

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm assuming that Kallor was cursed before the arrival of the Crippled God? Or was it after, it seems like a bad move to prolong the life of the man responsible for the giant Shitstorm that all the Gods and Ascendants are caught up with for the majority of these stories.

Nope, it was after. This happens in the MoI prologue, and K'rul remarks how the CG is already down. But they weren't really cursing Kallor because the thaumaturgs called down the CG (or at least not just that), it was mainly because Kallor killed every person in his empire. Eternal life has some perks, but as we can see from Kallor's own PoVs in TtH and his actions here in B&B he's not exactly happy about it, so maybe it was a good curse after all.

[Luperci]

D, on 11 August 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

They call down the Shattered God to defeat Kallor and stop him from dominating the who Continent, but what warren or ritual did these Mages use for such a feat? I was always under the assumption that since they worshipped(kind of) the CG that they would be using Chaos as the source of their power but we see in the end of B&B that Chaos actually consumes the Inner Circle of Nine. When the warrens are mentioned by the Turgs they remark on the alienness of them so it would appear K'rul is not someone who they are familiar with yet he is responsible for the continued existence of the most ancient of enemies who's name is forbidden to speak of. Why is it almost taboo to mention the history of kallor and their calling down of the CG its obvious this was down in the far past since their modern day culture only speaks of this in rumors and secrets.

I don't think the thaumaturgs worhsip the CG at all. I think their magic source is the blood and ritual magic, like what we see used by the Wickans or occasionally by QB or Bottle - the ancient spirit magics that are not related to warrens at all. The thaumaturgs seem to have spent eons researching and advancing their spirit magic as far as they can take it, in horrifying ways.

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm assuming that Kallor was cursed before the arrival of the Crippled God? Or was it after, it seems like a bad move to prolong the life of the man responsible for the giant Shitstorm that all the Gods and Ascendants are caught up with for the majority of these stories.

Nope, it was after. This happens in the MoI prologue, and K'rul remarks how the CG is already down. But they weren't really cursing Kallor because the thaumaturgs called down the CG (or at least not just that), it was mainly because Kallor killed every person in his empire. Eternal life has some perks, but as we can see from Kallor's own PoVs in TtH and his actions here in B&B he's not exactly happy about it, so maybe it was a good curse after all.

Ok that makes more sense, its been about a year since I finished CG so things are getting fuzzy timeline wise.At that point I guess Kallor really wouldn't make a huge difference whether he was cursed or not the damage was already done is that what im getting out of this?

The spirit magics makes more sense the more I think about it. With Himaton on the other side of the land it would make sense the Turgs would tap in to this Spirit or Earthly power that I imagine predates even the Holds maybe? I guess its not all clear to begin with ICE and SE leave a lot to the imagination lol.

[tiam]

D, on 11 August 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

They call down the Shattered God to defeat Kallor and stop him from dominating the who Continent, but what warren or ritual did these Mages use for such a feat? I was always under the assumption that since they worshipped(kind of) the CG that they would be using Chaos as the source of their power but we see in the end of B&B that Chaos actually consumes the Inner Circle of Nine. When the warrens are mentioned by the Turgs they remark on the alienness of them so it would appear K'rul is not someone who they are familiar with yet he is responsible for the continued existence of the most ancient of enemies who's name is forbidden to speak of. Why is it almost taboo to mention the history of kallor and their calling down of the CG its obvious this was down in the far past since their modern day culture only speaks of this in rumors and secrets.

I don't think the thaumaturgs worhsip the CG at all. I think their magic source is the blood and ritual magic, like what we see used by the Wickans or occasionally by QB or Bottle - the ancient spirit magics that are not related to warrens at all. The thaumaturgs seem to have spent eons researching and advancing their spirit magic as far as they can take it, in horrifying ways.

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm assuming that Kallor was cursed before the arrival of the Crippled God? Or was it after, it seems like a bad move to prolong the life of the man responsible for the giant Shitstorm that all the Gods and Ascendants are caught up with for the majority of these stories.

Nope, it was after. This happens in the MoI prologue, and K'rul remarks how the CG is already down. But they weren't really cursing Kallor because the thaumaturgs called down the CG (or at least not just that), it was mainly because Kallor killed every person in his empire. Eternal life has some perks, but as we can see from Kallor's own PoVs in TtH and his actions here in B&B he's not exactly happy about it, so maybe it was a good curse after all.

CapedCrusader, on 14 August 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

D, on 11 August 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

They call down the Shattered God to defeat Kallor and stop him from dominating the who Continent, but what warren or ritual did these Mages use for such a feat? I was always under the assumption that since they worshipped(kind of) the CG that they would be using Chaos as the source of their power but we see in the end of B&B that Chaos actually consumes the Inner Circle of Nine. When the warrens are mentioned by the Turgs they remark on the alienness of them so it would appear K'rul is not someone who they are familiar with yet he is responsible for the continued existence of the most ancient of enemies who's name is forbidden to speak of. Why is it almost taboo to mention the history of kallor and their calling down of the CG its obvious this was down in the far past since their modern day culture only speaks of this in rumors and secrets.

I don't think the thaumaturgs worhsip the CG at all. I think their magic source is the blood and ritual magic, like what we see used by the Wickans or occasionally by QB or Bottle - the ancient spirit magics that are not related to warrens at all. The thaumaturgs seem to have spent eons researching and advancing their spirit magic as far as they can take it, in horrifying ways.

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm assuming that Kallor was cursed before the arrival of the Crippled God? Or was it after, it seems like a bad move to prolong the life of the man responsible for the giant Shitstorm that all the Gods and Ascendants are caught up with for the majority of these stories.

Nope, it was after. This happens in the MoI prologue, and K'rul remarks how the CG is already down. But they weren't really cursing Kallor because the thaumaturgs called down the CG (or at least not just that), it was mainly because Kallor killed every person in his empire. Eternal life has some perks, but as we can see from Kallor's own PoVs in TtH and his actions here in B&B he's not exactly happy about it, so maybe it was a good curse after all.

Ok that makes more sense, its been about a year since I finished CG so things are getting fuzzy timeline wise.At that point I guess Kallor really wouldn't make a huge difference whether he was cursed or not the damage was already done is that what im getting out of this?

The spirit magics makes more sense the more I think about it. With Himaton on the other side of the land it would make sense the Turgs would tap in to this Spirit or Earthly power that I imagine predates even the Holds maybe? I guess its not all clear to begin with ICE and SE leave a lot to the imagination lol.

In regards to the magic they may tap into the warrens but simply not know it. They stop Dassem using an earthly spell and Ereko claims that had they used any other warren he would have had trouble but as a child of the earth he is able to access it. So its possible that they use warrens or warren magic in their path towards ascension but maybe a more primal hold like form?

[nacht]

D, on 11 August 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

They call down the Shattered God to defeat Kallor and stop him from dominating the who Continent, but what warren or ritual did these Mages use for such a feat? I was always under the assumption that since they worshipped(kind of) the CG that they would be using Chaos as the source of their power but we see in the end of B&B that Chaos actually consumes the Inner Circle of Nine. When the warrens are mentioned by the Turgs they remark on the alienness of them so it would appear K'rul is not someone who they are familiar with yet he is responsible for the continued existence of the most ancient of enemies who's name is forbidden to speak of. Why is it almost taboo to mention the history of kallor and their calling down of the CG its obvious this was down in the far past since their modern day culture only speaks of this in rumors and secrets.

I don't think the thaumaturgs worhsip the CG at all. I think their magic source is the blood and ritual magic, like what we see used by the Wickans or occasionally by QB or Bottle - the ancient spirit magics that are not related to warrens at all. The thaumaturgs seem to have spent eons researching and advancing their spirit magic as far as they can take it, in horrifying ways.

CapedCrusader, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm assuming that Kallor was cursed before the arrival of the Crippled God? Or was it after, it seems like a bad move to prolong the life of the man responsible for the giant Shitstorm that all the Gods and Ascendants are caught up with for the majority of these stories.

Nope, it was after. This happens in the MoI prologue, and K'rul remarks how the CG is already down. But they weren't really cursing Kallor because the thaumaturgs called down the CG (or at least not just that), it was mainly because Kallor killed every person in his empire. Eternal life has some perks, but as we can see from Kallor's own PoVs in TtH and his actions here in B&B he's not exactly happy about it, so maybe it was a good curse after all.

Hmm, I implicitly assumed they used an evil form of Denul because of they way they messed with people's bodies (for ex. Hanu)
But, they don't have to be restricted to one form of magic. They seem to be using a thyrllan ritual at the end.
Also rituals could be different from directly using warrens, i.e. somebody could follow a prescription for a ritual without exactly being adepts (For ex. the Imass "ritual")

[Messiah X]

A few other things I didn't get or may have missed the point on:

1. What was in Golan's box? The description made it sound like he had his own shard of the Crippled God (silver glow, very similar to the description of the chest Spite ran off with a few pages later). This was never addressed again later.

2. What was so important about Lek (Ardata's daughter) that it brought T'riss all the way out there? I'm assuming T'riss "dethroned" Ardata ages ago, so why is she just now coming out to deal with her, and riskily manifesting in the flesh to do so?

At the end, Pon-Lor and Saeng are returning to rebuild the Thaumaturg country, hopefully for the better. Aren't the Shaduwam still there and now in control of the capital (and likely the whole country) though? Are the two of them walking blind into a trap or are they in fact going to reclaim a currently unoccupied and destabilized region? I honestly don't think the two of them could do much of anything to get rid of the Shaduwam without an army behind them.